Tactical Terminators in 8th

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

But if I wanted a deepstriking chaf clearing unit that's durable, then I'd pay for bolter inceptors. Four of them are the close enough to a unit of 5 terminators to call them the same cost and even with the terminators using fury of the first they do less against meq, geq and vehicles.

 

So if you look at terminators as a deepstrike melee unit, theyre more expensive than equivalent damaging units. If you look at them as a unit that isn't predominantly melee, they also get outclassed by other deepstrike shooting options. And that's not counting how assault centurions completely invalidate them for a third of the marine lists.

Okay. Good to know where you stand.

 

Now back to making Tactical Terminators work and the tricks you can pull with them.

I'm wondering if Tactical Terminators would be worth running in 8th.

I think that you were dismissive of this mans position when he is trying to address the actual question , which is not exactly the question that you restated.

 

I personally do not rate terminators very high this edition despite owning more than 40 of them.

I think the question I would ask is what sort of armies are your regular opponents ?

What does yer local meta look like in terms of army composition?

 

I was dismissive because it was stated THREE TIMES, which was pretty excessive imo

 

And the homer is relevant to what they bring on their own that you can't simply replace with all these other suggested options.

[Aothaine]

Something I'd like to bring up is that people tend to focus a unit into being great at one thing. This isn't a bad decision. But sometimes it is not the best. People like to build lists differently and play the game differently. Tactical Terminators with just PF+Storm Bolters are not going to be the best at anything. But they are good at several things. They have Storm Bolters which are really good, especially with the IF tactics. They have Power Fists to munch on anything they come in contact with. They can deep strike and shunt with a teleport homer that can pull them out of bad combats and onto an objective on the back line in cover. Then they have a 4++(Cataphracii), 5++(Normal Terminators). They offer a lot.

 

Terminators are a very flexible unit that I think many people under estimate. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Lemondish, it's a discussion; different posts about different roles for terminators compared to similar units with a conclusion that goes along the line of "X unit happens to be cheaper and fulfill a similar role" . Don't see you dunking on blowfly or aothaine for repeating that they like terminators.

 

I wish the teleport homer had a smaller kill radius on it; I'd merit the strategy of disrupting with deepstrike into a later-game emergency teleport, if you didn't have to defend the homer (and backline in general) so aggressively. The 18" diameter requires multiple units to shield from enemy reserves, meaning they themselves could just jump on the objective.

 

In terms of armour and invul, I think the invul should be increased by 1 across all armour types. The 5++ is basically irrelevant due to -4 and -5 being very rare, with the 4++ being useful, but not nearly as much as a 2+ 4++ was in previous editions.

 

But those two last points don't actually pertain to the topic.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

5++ is more important now with devastator doctrine and it’s not like GW hands out 2+ armor saves like candy... twice as good as 6+.

 

Seeing there’s not a dedicated Primaris melee unit people will continue to look for a substitute.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Aothaine]

 

I wish the teleport homer had a smaller kill radius on it; I'd merit the strategy of disrupting with deepstrike into a later-game emergency teleport, if you didn't have to defend the homer (and backline in general) so aggressively. The 18" diameter requires multiple units to shield from enemy reserves, meaning they themselves could just jump on the objective.

 

In terms of armour and invul, I think the invul should be increased by 1 across all armour types. The 5++ is basically irrelevant due to -4 and -5 being very rare, with the 4++ being useful, but not nearly as much as a 2+ 4++ was in previous editions.

 

But those two last points don't actually pertain to the topic.

 

I agree that the teleport homer can be removed and that it can suck if that happens but it also presents another thing that your opponent has to consider. It is similar to those mines the new unit can drop in a sense, except this little item provides mobility to a unit that could otherwise be kited. They don't have a large impact visually on the game but they can be game winning in due to what it causes your opponent to think about and how they sometimes react. 

 

I'm a little confused on your opinion about a 5++ being irrelevant. It seems this save only works against really heavy weapons. Las Cannons, Meltas, Thunder Hammers maybe? Most times these ranged weapons are not going to be focusing the terminators, but when they do you'll be happy you had that invlun save. I want to point out that I do agree with you slightly here though. Being that they have a 2+ save it is going to be pretty rare that their invlun save will be used. I'm not to sure about the ranged weaponry of Xenos though. Do they have a lot of -4?

 

Also, something I just noticed is that the Cataphractii don't have access to the teleport homer. Something to keep in mind if they are the route you want to go with.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Aothaine

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Specifically, Eldar have easy access to AP-4. Bright lances, dark lances, fusion guns and fusion pistols all come to mind. I think Hammerhead railguns are AP-4 too, maybe the Shokk Attack gun?

[jaxom]

Something I'd like to bring up is that people tend to focus a unit into being great at one thing. This isn't a bad decision. But sometimes it is not the best. People like to build lists differently and play the game differently. Tactical Terminators with just PF+Storm Bolters are not going to be the best at anything. But they are good at several things. They have Storm Bolters which are really good, especially with the IF tactics. They have Power Fists to munch on anything they come in contact with. They can deep strike and shunt with a teleport homer that can pull them out of bad combats and onto an objective on the back line in cover. Then they have a 4++(Cataphracii), 5++(Normal Terminators). They offer a lot.

 

Terminators are a very flexible unit that I think many people under estimate. 

 

This, so much this. A core concept of space marines for years was that they have better than average units, but their specialists were not as good. The key was leveraging the better than average units against the average units and not the specialists. Terminators can demolish infantry chaff while getting into position to charge things like broadsides, tanks, and shooty-dreadnoughts. Expecting them to perform like Khorne Berzerkers or Obliterators is not a good comparison.

[The Unseen]

Except that's why marines SUCKED for literally years, because they would pay for those *generalist* stats and get demolished by units actually good at their job.

That's terminators in 8th.

They have an invuln, that only matters against AP-4 and up, and except for a few random rare weapons (while Eldar have a lot more of the AP-4 stuff, it isn't what is taken often because there are better options with more normal AP values) it never comes up.

They have stormbolters, which are decent enough guns, but nothing amazing, it tends to bounce off 3+ saves, especially when theyre in cover, but also don't have quite the volume/cost to deal with chaff, and a very expensive power fist they struggle to use with their low movement speed and unreliability of a deep strike charge.

 

2+ saves took a beating in 8th as well, since multi damage -1 or -2 AP stuff absolutely shreds them, to say nothing of the most common special weapon in the game, overcharged plasma.

 

So yeah, saying other units do everything they do but better/cheaper is a valid point.

 

If they could take combi weapons and/or cheaper power weapons they'd be a lot better, as they could actually pack a punch on the drop, and would still be able to take on MEQS in melee.

[Lord Blackwood]

i  would also posit that  your enemy should be using ap -4 fire on things that need that sort of fire to be removed , such as your tanks and dreadnoughts. Not burning it on  terminators. 

If Cataphractii  could take combi weapons they  would be very interesting  though I feel like the unit falls short of  doing something well enough to warrant their spot over other things. 

The  way the game is designed they are a distraction carnifex at best , one your opponent can play around since their delivery method is fairly telegraphed , I think if perhaps you want some counter charge to something they could work  there ? 

Though in that instance it feels like yer wasting them. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

These are all situational posits... assuming everything that’s a target has 3+ save sitting in cover or the enemy has a dearth of weapons and doesn’t need to fire AP4 ranged weapons. A squad of five terms can be easily positioned on the drop to present a low profile to the enemy and with 24" range they can select an out of position enemy unit to target.

[Brom MKIV]

OP- I feel tactical terminators are worth a look for your faction. They are not the pinnacle of competitive in the broad spectrum. But, your options for deep strike units are fairly limited so terminators can find use.

 

They are a bully unit in this edition. Durable to small arms with both ranged presence and combat capable. That makes them decent at assaulting firebase units and more resistant to some counter assault units that other choices like inceptors would not be. Add the teleport homer and they can reverse direction to protect home base, possibly even pulling a surprise short ranged charge.

 

If I run them I'd consider the chainfist loadout like BBF uses but as tactical termies. You lose 3 CF attacks for power swords along with the grenade harness but in return gain the teleport homer and a 22 pt discount. Somewhat meta dependent but considering their roll I feel cheaper is better and 13 d2 attacks is sufficient for handling primaris while their exploding bolters can target what they don't charge.

For 173 pts it's not gonna break the bank.

 

The 4++ vs 5++ is mostly a moot point due to what weaponry generally gets pointed their way. I say this as a csm player too where 5++ is the max.

Also while termicide units can be potent I've found competent players restrict my LZs to the degree that I've found greater value from scarab occult terminators due to the larger threat range vs the short double tap range of plasma.

Anyway my point is marine terminators can access ap1 stormbolters t2 and ignores cover in your case which will be just as effective at chaff and firebase clearing.

 

Try em.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Except that's why marines SUCKED for literally years, because they would pay for those *generalist* stats and get demolished by units actually good at their job.

That's terminators in 8th.

They have an invuln, that only matters against AP-4 and up, and except for a few random rare weapons (while Eldar have a lot more of the AP-4 stuff, it isn't what is taken often because there are better options with more normal AP values) it never comes up.

They have stormbolters, which are decent enough guns, but nothing amazing, it tends to bounce off 3+ saves, especially when theyre in cover, but also don't have quite the volume/cost to deal with chaff, and a very expensive power fist they struggle to use with their low movement speed and unreliability of a deep strike charge.

 

2+ saves took a beating in 8th as well, since multi damage -1 or -2 AP stuff absolutely shreds them, to say nothing of the most common special weapon in the game, overcharged plasma.

 

So yeah, saying other units do everything they do but better/cheaper is a valid point.

 

If they could take combi weapons and/or cheaper power weapons they'd be a lot better, as they could actually pack a punch on the drop, and would still be able to take on MEQS in melee.

All the things you think would make Tactical Terminators better - namely combis and other CCWs - are available on Chaos Terminators, you know. And they're not exactly tearing up the competitive scene either.

 

Got any other ideas?

[MeltaRange]

I'm in agreement that the 9" charge is a huge blocker because it makes half (really more than half) of their ability too much of a crap shoot.  You simply cannot rely on it.

 

Now, we have several ways to increase the likelihood of a charge, such as a Chaplain, Successor Tactics, and certain Relics/Psychic Powers, but the issue is if you're investing in those you're going to want Assault Terminators to maximize your ROI.

 

I really like Assault Terminators for certain armies, but Tactical terminators don't bring enough in the ranged game to make up for the benefits of having a Storm Shield or D3 weapon.

[Gree]

OP- I feel tactical terminators are worth a look for your faction. They are not the pinnacle of competitive in the broad spectrum. But, your options for deep strike units are fairly limited so terminators can find use.

 

Thank you for the advice.

 

I probably should clarify that I'm not playing in a cutting-edge competitive environment. If I was, I would be playing some Iron Hands netlist.

 

I recognize that there might be better units for the role, like Agressors or Centurions, but I probably won't use them simply because I don't want to spend the money,

 

 

I'm in agreement that the 9" charge is a huge blocker because it makes half (really more than half) of their ability too much of a crap shoot.  You simply cannot rely on it.

 

Now, we have several ways to increase the likelihood of a charge, such as a Chaplain, Successor Tactics, and certain Relics/Psychic Powers, but the issue is if you're investing in those you're going to want Assault Terminators to maximize your ROI.

 

I really like Assault Terminators for certain armies, but Tactical terminators don't bring enough in the ranged game to make up for the benefits of having a Storm Shield or D3 weapon.

 

It's interesting for me because I've tried to use Assault Terminators in 8th. I've been failing alot with them.  Even with a CP re-roll they don't often make the 9 inch charge. Often their accompanying Captain or Chaplain fails to make the charge and sometimes they fall out of aura range because of that. They rarely make their points back.

 

Admittedly, the Imperial Fist tactics are not the optimal ones to run Assault Termies, but even so I've never found much success with them. That's part of why I'm looking at Tactical Termies. At least they manage to kill something each game.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Gree

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I hate to say it but assault terms are hawt garbage now oh how the mighty has fallen.

[MeltaRange]

 

It's interesting for me because I've tried to use Assault Terminators in 8th. I've been failing alot with them.  Even with a CP re-roll they don't often make the 9 inch charge. Often their accompanying Captain or Chaplain fails to make the charge and sometimes they fall out of aura range because of that. They rarely make their points back.

 

Admittedly, the Imperial Fist tactics are not the optimal ones to run Assault Termies, but even so I've never found much success with them. That's part of why I'm looking at Tactical Termies. At least they manage to kill something each game.

 

 

I'm saying they are only worth it if you invest more into making that chance to get in combat better.  White Scars do it really well since they can get +3"/+4" to charge with one single support character and can use 3d6 picking the highest with a 1CP stratagem.

 

My overall point is that taking tactical terminators without any kind of delivery mechanism largely wastes their potential in my opinion.  I would rather take Assault Terminators + support to get them into combat than a few storm bolter shots.

Edited November 5, 2019 by MeltaRange

[Claws and Effect]

 

OP- I feel tactical terminators are worth a look for your faction. They are not the pinnacle of competitive in the broad spectrum. But, your options for deep strike units are fairly limited so terminators can find use.

Thank you for the advice.

 

I probably should clarify that I'm not playing in a cutting-edge competitive environment. If I was, I would be playing some Iron Hands netlist.

 

I recognize that there might be better units for the role, like Agressors or Centurions, but I probably won't use them simply because I don't want to spend the money,

 

I'm in agreement that the 9" charge is a huge blocker because it makes half (really more than half) of their ability too much of a crap shoot. You simply cannot rely on it.

 

Now, we have several ways to increase the likelihood of a charge, such as a Chaplain, Successor Tactics, and certain Relics/Psychic Powers, but the issue is if you're investing in those you're going to want Assault Terminators to maximize your ROI.

 

I really like Assault Terminators for certain armies, but Tactical terminators don't bring enough in the ranged game to make up for the benefits of having a Storm Shield or D3 weapon.

It's interesting for me because I've tried to use Assault Terminators in 8th. I've been failing alot with them. Even with a CP re-roll they don't often make the 9 inch charge. Often their accompanying Captain or Chaplain fails to make the charge and sometimes they fall out of aura range because of that. They rarely make their points back.

 

Admittedly, the Imperial Fist tactics are not the optimal ones to run Assault Termies, but even so I've never found much success with them. That's part of why I'm looking at Tactical Termies. At least they manage to kill something each game.

You need a jump pack Chaplain running Canticle of Hate to turn that 9" charge into a 7" charge. Since 7 is the average roll of 2d6 you should stand a much better chance of them making it in. A CP reroll should make that even better.

[MeltaRange]

I hate to say it but assault terms are hawt garbage now oh how the mighty has fallen.

 

There are certain builds where I think they work.  But I doubt they'll be in winning GT lists or anything (even though Iron Hands can probably make them work)

[jaxom]

The bulk of a Land Raider chassis helps, but the Land itself is expensive. You charge a unit with it and in your next turn disembark the Terminators to charge.

[MegaVolt87]

Hm, what about cata's with LC + combi bolter for chaff clearing, sure you lose out on PF/CF, points are a bit cheaper though. 

[Gree]

 

 

OP- I feel tactical terminators are worth a look for your faction. They are not the pinnacle of competitive in the broad spectrum. But, your options for deep strike units are fairly limited so terminators can find use.

Thank you for the advice.

 

I probably should clarify that I'm not playing in a cutting-edge competitive environment. If I was, I would be playing some Iron Hands netlist.

 

I recognize that there might be better units for the role, like Agressors or Centurions, but I probably won't use them simply because I don't want to spend the money,

 

I'm in agreement that the 9" charge is a huge blocker because it makes half (really more than half) of their ability too much of a crap shoot. You simply cannot rely on it.

 

Now, we have several ways to increase the likelihood of a charge, such as a Chaplain, Successor Tactics, and certain Relics/Psychic Powers, but the issue is if you're investing in those you're going to want Assault Terminators to maximize your ROI.

 

I really like Assault Terminators for certain armies, but Tactical terminators don't bring enough in the ranged game to make up for the benefits of having a Storm Shield or D3 weapon.

It's interesting for me because I've tried to use Assault Terminators in 8th. I've been failing alot with them. Even with a CP re-roll they don't often make the 9 inch charge. Often their accompanying Captain or Chaplain fails to make the charge and sometimes they fall out of aura range because of that. They rarely make their points back.

 

Admittedly, the Imperial Fist tactics are not the optimal ones to run Assault Termies, but even so I've never found much success with them. That's part of why I'm looking at Tactical Termies. At least they manage to kill something each game.

You need a jump pack Chaplain running Canticle of Hate to turn that 9" charge into a 7" charge. Since 7 is the average roll of 2d6 you should stand a much better chance of them making it in. A CP reroll should make that even better.

 

 

If I am reading the rules correctly, the Chaplain must do the litany at the start of the battle round, so if he deep striked alongside the Termies then he could not enact a litany that turn. He would have to wait for the next battle round. But that would defeat the point of deep striking Terminators to assault them.

 

I suppose the Chaplain could start on the board, but he would have to maneuver to be in range of the deep striking Terminator Squad, something that might not be possible.

 

Of course, the second part of my problem with Assault Terminators is that they need a Captain to babysit them or else they are going to miss with half of their Thunder Hammer swings.

 

 

The bulk of a Land Raider chassis helps, but the Land itself is expensive. You charge a unit with it and in your next turn disembark the Terminators to charge.

 

I've considered that, but it's expensive. At minimum I would need to put an Assault Terminator squad and a Captain in a Land Raider of some sort and that's alot of points to put in one basket. I've had games where my Land Raiders were reduced to 2-3 wounds in the first turn by enemy shooting.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Gree

[MegaVolt87]

 

The bulk of a Land Raider chassis helps, but the Land itself is expensive. You charge a unit with it and in your next turn disembark the Terminators to charge.

 

I've considered that, but it's expensive. At minimum I would need to put an Assault Terminator squad and a Captain in a Land Raider of some sort and that's alot of points to put in one basket. I've had games where my Land Raiders were reduced to 2-3 wounds in the first turn by enemy shooting.

 

 

That's classic deathstar for SM's, except now we have tartaros as a better option for LC melee termi's. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

I hate to say it but assault terms are hawt garbage now oh how the mighty has fallen.

 

There are certain builds where I think they work. But I doubt they'll be in winning GT lists or anything (even though Iron Hands can probably make them work)

They are a waste of points for any chapter like RG that doesn’t need a transport since you can take assault Cents.

 

Gree there is a 1 point CP so that terms get +1 WS.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Aothaine]

I hate to say it but assault terms are hawt garbage now oh how the mighty has fallen.

 

Pls no. I was thinking of running TH/SS termies in my IH list. Perhaps tacticals termies would be better though :/

 

 

 

 

I hate to say it but assault terms are hawt garbage now oh how the mighty has fallen.

There are certain builds where I think they work. But I doubt they'll be in winning GT lists or anything (even though Iron Hands can probably make them work)

They are a waste of points for any chapter like RG that doesn’t need a transport since you can take assault Cents.

 

Gree there is a 1 point CP so that terms get +1 WS.

 

 

Iron Hands have a Strat that gives them +1 to hit, another strat that gives them two hits for the price of one on a nat 6 as well. It is a lot of CP investment and the unit needs to be able to get into combat. But I am thinking it might work with the list I'm building. Still might be better to run tacticals though. Not entirely sure just yet. But for now I'm thinking of running Chaplain/Librarian in Terminator Armour and a 10-man TH/SS terminator unit.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

IH do Hammernators better than anyone else, I think. 2+, 3++, 5+++ (with strat) and layer Transhuman Physiology on top and they'll be hard to kill. And if you take a Land Raider to transport them, it's more likely to survive that first round of shooting thanks to the FNP and Ironstone (and Psysteel if you get first turn!).