Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

Or, Abnett gets what he wants because of how well his books sell. Wouldn't be good for BL to make him unhappy.

[Marshal Loss]

Not gonna lie, it did occur to me while reading that BL wouldn't let anybody but Abnett do as much in a novel as he did in Saturnine. Whether or not that is a good thing will largely depend on your opinion of his work.

[b1soul]

ADB and Wraight sell well too, and Abnett isn't going to stomp on his fellows' toes just for the heck of it. I think both of the former OKed what Abnett did. In the case of Wraight, it's not even 100% clear what Abnett actually did.

[Allart01]

I share Marshal Loss' feeling, but do not believe that Abnett would take or impose certain decisions all by himself. Edited March 26, 2020 by The_Bloody

[Marshal Loss]

Others may sell well but Abnett's status as the spiritual godfather of Black Library lends him an authority they don't possess. That much is indisputable, and you don't have to dig far to see other authors being deferential to him. Besides, the point wasn't that he killed characters without their creator's permission (I'm not saying the man is a monster); the point was that Black Library wouldn't let other authors cram as much stuff into a single book as he has done here. In terms of deaths and major lore developments this novel stands apart from its companions. Again, whether or not that is a good thing will depend on your opinion of his work.

 

Will write up thoughts in more detail later. This is definitely a book you need to read yourself to grapple with; I may not be an Abnett fan but it all needs to be viewed in-context.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Fedor]

Shiban will be fine if Wraight wants him to be fine. We should have already learned not to trust those kind of cutaways with what happened to Loken.

 

It's my boy Hibou i'm worried about.

[StrangerOrders]

Others may sell well but Abnett's status as the spiritual godfather of Black Library lends him an authority they don't possess. That much is indisputable, and you don't have to dig far to see other authors being deferential to him. Besides, the point wasn't that he killed characters without their creator's permission (I'm not saying the man is a monster); the point was that Black Library wouldn't let other authors cram as much stuff into a single book as he has done here. In terms of deaths and major lore developments this novel stands apart from its companions. Again, whether or not that is a good thing will depend on your opinion of his work.

 

Will write up thoughts in more detail later. This is definitely a book you need to read yourself to grapple with; I may not be an Abnett fan but it all needs to be viewed in-context.

This might be unpopular, but I will say this 300 pages into the book.

 

This book makes me feel like the others were rushed,

 

My single biggest problem with Solar War was how rushed it was, LatD barely had time to make anyone feel important (granted, it wasted time idling about) and First Wall is First Wall.

 

Looking back 'it needed a bigger wordcount' defines my issues with alot of BL products. 

 

Saturnine SHOULD be the norm in size imo. As I actually feel like everyone, despite the cast size, and the scale of the fight are given time to breath and develop as they should. I havent felt that since the Siege started.

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

I agree with Marshal Loss. And he said it far better than I did. My post can be read as a bit too cynical.

Abnett stands apart from other BL authors. Being a popular veteran author means that if he asks to use a character, they will more often than not say yes. I don't think he does it out of ego or to show off, for him it's most likely story-driven.

I just wish he could keep the kill rate a bit lower.

[StrangerOrders]

I agree with Marshal Loss. And he said it far better than I did. My post can be read as a bit too cynical.

Abnett stands apart from other BL authors. Being a popular veteran author means that if he asks to use a character, they will more often than not say yes. I don't think he does it out of ego or to show off, for him it's most likely story-driven.

I just wish he could keep the kill rate a bit lower.

Tbf, we have all been baying for blood for a while. Its a bit unfair to complain that our calls for bloodletting have been answered and that it was characters we happened to like.

 

Should he have just killed characters we didnt like? What would be the point there?

 

Not to mention the layers of plot armor protecting most of the cast.

Edited March 26, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Kelborn]

Well true but killing off that many of the "eatablished" ones right away is... unwise?

No either they'll focus even more on the dwindling cast of which we all know their fates, etc. or we'll get new characters for four books at most.

 

I don't have a problem that they might have died but that many in a "rush"...

Feels a tad bit like GoT eight season where they had to let people die just for the sake of it.

[b1soul]

@ Fedor

 

As I recall...chronologically, after the events of Little Horus, his position was engulfed by the SoH and he dropped off the radar. I think this was mentioned in Path of Heaven. Guy basically disappeared.

 

On Abnett, yes, he does seem to get quite a bit of leeway as he probably should. Or he's just the guy with the whackier ideas. I mean Thorpe introduced time travel shenanigans for DA and SW.

 

But I also think BL would probably let Wraight or ADB (especially ADB) write some pretty huge things if they wanted to.

 

EDIT: Would also add that we have minimal visibility into the SoT team's shot-calling process. So speculation in that area is just that...speculation.

 

DOUBLE EDIT:

The scene in Restorer with Shiban leading a WS charge def happens at the Lions Gate, so not sure if Shiban and the WS had a chance to do that during The First Wall. If yes, then I guess Shiban could bite the dust in Saturnine

Edited March 26, 2020 by b1soul

[StrangerOrders]

I rather like the origin of the Ollanius Myth.

 

One grenadier holding the line against a raging WE being turned into shielding the Emp from Lupercal.

Its suitable for me that history became so distorted, especially when said historian is filling up on dubious bs and probably going to be come one of the first of the terrible inquisitors.

Alot of Guardsmen fans will blow a gasket, on alot of sites they are already angry enough to make a WE blush by default.

I am personally something a fan of small moments of heroics like that though,

[Rob P]

Still going on about Aximand

it felt that the antagonism with Loken was too contrived; it diminished his arc. Far better if Abaddon had killed him. I don't see how the setting gains from Loken having even survived Isstvan

.

 

I find the 'epic' indiscriminate offing of Sons' of Horus conceptually rubbish. Cool enough in the black book 'historical accounts' but not in the novels. The deaths should serve the narrative or the character arcs. At the very least they could have served Sigismund.

 

I feel i'm almost stepping foot in the contentious post here about realism. Realism should not be elevated above the story- regardless of whether it's space fantasy (which it is) or science fiction.

[Lucerne]

I hope we get new SoH characters established in the next few for Scouring/post-Heresy scenes at least?

[StrangerOrders]

I hope we get new SoH characters established in the next few for Scouring/post-Heresy scenes at least?

Looks at Black Legion books, eh, I'm not worried. The Medicae alone is a more likable SoH than anything we've had between now and Rising (ironic that people are complaining about the first book to actually make the Legion sufferable in literal decades, I'd argue they've repeatedly murdered the Sons in characterization for a while now).

 

The Medicae in the Fabius books is also fun.

 

Actually, alot of SoH Medicae are entertaining... thats a really pattern now that I think about it.

 

And apparently people forget that Argonis, the closest thing to a likable SoH during the long draught, exists.

 

Say what you will but I would rather a good but brief characterization than dragging a concept's rotting corpse across several dozen books. Which has been my experience with the SoH during the Heresy.

[StrangerOrders]

Holy mother of Primarchs!

 

Dorn's trap for the Sons is an all-star Lineup.

 

Sigismund and his Templars, Haar and His Blackshields, The Knights Errant left with Garro, Sanguinius's Paladins with their commander, Thane and his Exemplars and Loken.

 

Loken who in the most brazen Dominance Flex of all time is wearing the Luna Wolf colors and the old Legion Crest.

 

All led by Dorn himself.

 

Dorn is flexing so hard that Terra might break from the T-Pose he is laying here.

 

The book also explains why he seemed shocked that Vulkan lived. Apparently the plan was to keep him a secret from everyone else to prevent distractions. And Malcador just dropped it to garner motivation from the other Primarchs without warning Dorn who had to pretend to be surprised (and actually was surprised and furious that Malc blindsided him).

 

Its a patch, but at least its addressed now.

 

That ambush though, jeebus.

 

Pity that it caught the Mournival, the hope would be that Horus would come. Dorn failed to predict both how gone Lupercal is and how much the attack meant to the SoH Commanders. Still, it was arguably worth letting Eternity Gate fall to take off the most rational heads left in the Legions.

[calgar101]

Awesome!

[Fedor]

I think the LACK of Sons appearances and what they opted to focus on when they did was the biggest issue rather than the actual character work. The opening trilogy delved deeper into the remembrancers in terms of interesting characterisation, and the Sons generally just stayed very much briefly appearing supporting characters from then on until close to the siege other than Aximand in Little Horus and Vengeful Spirit and Maloghurst(who's struggle with how to handle the emerging ritualistic side of chaos was quite well done imo.

[Scribe]

I rather like the origin of the Ollanius Myth.

 

One grenadier holding the line against a raging WE being turned into shielding the Emp from Lupercal.

 

Its suitable for me that history became so distorted, especially when said historian is filling up on dubious bs and probably going to be come one of the first of the terrible inquisitors.

 

Alot of Guardsmen fans will blow a gasket, on alot of sites they are already angry enough to make a WE blush by default.

 

I am personally something a fan of small moments of heroics like that though,

 

Excuse me, but are you implying that Ol is not at the final battle? He dies holding the line? Or is this just speculation?

 

I mean hes a perpetual, even if he dies holding the line...he comes back (much character investment, many wow) and can still be there to defend the Emperor?

 

Right??

[StrangerOrders]

 

I rather like the origin of the Ollanius Myth.

 

One grenadier holding the line against a raging WE being turned into shielding the Emp from Lupercal.

 

Its suitable for me that history became so distorted, especially when said historian is filling up on dubious bs and probably going to be come one of the first of the terrible inquisitors.

 

Alot of Guardsmen fans will blow a gasket, on alot of sites they are already angry enough to make a WE blush by default.

 

I am personally something a fan of small moments of heroics like that though,

 

Excuse me, but are you implying that Ol is not at the final battle? He dies holding the line? Or is this just speculation?

 

I mean hes a perpetual, even if he dies holding the line...he comes back (much character investment, many wow) and can still be there to defend the Emperor?

 

Right??

 

I've been posting on this thread for a while and restated this a few times.

 

The Ollanius of myth isn't real. There is Perrson, there is also a Grenadier named Ollanius that one of the Sinderman's historians is following around. There is also Krole running around and a Diaz.

 

Throughout the book, the Historian (who is becoming a proto-Inquisitor) gradually grows more desperate and begins blurring fact and fiction for morale in the way the soldiers are doing.

 

This trooper is still very much alive (saved by Krole), but when the historian was writting the story the Grenadier suggested they change some random Eater to Horus.

 

I am also only on page 400.

 

Oll is currently MIA, looks like he screwed up the time jump due to the warp contracting around Terra (John is trying to figure out when he is).

 

The afterward talks alot about myth-making and how history and legend can be twisted and perverted and... look I've written at length on that part in this thread and I am sure you can dig it up. Its a lengthy thing and I don't want to reiterate it when I could read more book instead! 

[Scribe]

phew....not sure thats really any better, but...I appreciate that. I must have missed your earlier mentions around this. Apologies!

[Lucerne]

 

I hope we get new SoH characters established in the next few for Scouring/post-Heresy scenes at least?

Looks at Black Legion books, eh, I'm not worried. The Medicae alone is a more likable SoH than anything we've had between now and Rising (ironic that people are complaining about the first book to actually make the Legion sufferable in literal decades, I'd argue they've repeatedly murdered the Sons in characterization for a while now).

 

The Medicae in the Fabius books is also fun.

 

Actually, alot of SoH Medicae are entertaining... thats a really pattern now that I think about it.

 

And apparently people forget that Argonis, the closest thing to a likable SoH during the long draught, exists.

 

Say what you will but I would rather a good but brief characterization than dragging a concept's rotting corpse across several dozen books. Which has been my experience with the SoH during the Heresy.

 

I mean, I just want a gaggle of well-written SoH that aren't already dead and have an arc that leads into 40k. It wouldn't be hard to have a few glorified cameos here to build on later.

[Vazzy]

Just finished it. Was an excellent book and by far the best book in the Siege series. I also mean this in the politest way possible to everyone, but honestly wait to freak out until you read the :cussing book.

 

There are some changes but honestly I don’t believe any of it is truly earth shattering. The deaths are brutal and this has been the first book that actually felt like a siege. Abnett got it out if the park imo

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

I hope we get new SoH characters established in the next few for Scouring/post-Heresy scenes at least?

Looks at Black Legion books, eh, I'm not worried. The Medicae alone is a more likable SoH than anything we've had between now and Rising (ironic that people are complaining about the first book to actually make the Legion sufferable in literal decades, I'd argue they've repeatedly murdered the Sons in characterization for a while now).

 

The Medicae in the Fabius books is also fun.

 

Actually, alot of SoH Medicae are entertaining... thats a really pattern now that I think about it.

 

And apparently people forget that Argonis, the closest thing to a likable SoH during the long draught, exists.

 

Say what you will but I would rather a good but brief characterization than dragging a concept's rotting corpse across several dozen books. Which has been my experience with the SoH during the Heresy.

 

I mean, I just want a gaggle of well-written SoH that aren't already dead and have an arc that leads into 40k. It wouldn't be hard to have a few glorified cameos here to build on later.

 

Raises eyebrow

 

Most Legions are lucky to get an interesting cast for a book and one interesting long-term character. A gaggle is pretty greedy by 40k standards.

 

Anyway, to keep everything positive.

 

Finally finished the book. The deaths were... well different to what others have described to my eye due to a woeful lack of context. 

 

I will provide my own opinion if asked but the entire thing needs reading I believe.

 

Now pardon my while I sigh and begin practicing my facepalm for Fury.

Edited March 26, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[calgar101]

Can you expand on the deaths etc please StarngerOrders.