Ritual of the Damned - Psychic Awakening

[Gederas]

They're not going to give a Doctrine bonus specifically about Ravenwing or Deathwing, let's stop getting our hopes up.

 

It's probably going to be a Devastator or Tactical bonus, because we are a gunline army.

 

I just hope that we get a buffed Chapter Tactic like Blood Angels got. Because ours doesn't affect a good 60% of our units.... Because seriously.

 

Re-roll 1s when stationary? Cool. How's that affect any Ravenwing unit? Only lose one to morale? Deathwing are Fearless, and if you're taking Morale checks on a Ravenwing unit, it's probably already going to be wiped ANYWAY.

 

Grim Resolve only matters to Greenwing, and that's kind of sad.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Gederas

[Berzul]

I mean, what CAN they give us for the greenwing as a result of doctrines?

 

+1D to plasma?

 

It's what most would guess.

 

But, we can at least wish for something better, c´'mon! ;D

[Chaplain Raeven]

 

Grim Resolve only matters to Greenwing, and that's kind of sad.

 

Yeah, how dare they to make a rule for only 8 out the 10 Companies!

[jaxom]

On a more positive and on topic note... What do we think our Doctrine will be? I'm personally hoping for +1 damage for Plasma weapons in the Tactical Doctrine. I would love that very much lol.

 

Could be. I'd rather plasma get +1 to wound rolls in Tactical Doctrine just 'cause I think it would have more general utility.

 

I'd love to see an assault doctrine that was "Units with the Deathwing keyword may deepstrike more than 6" away from enemy models, as long as they do so entirely within 12" of a unit with the Ravenwing keyword".

 

Works only if you wait until turn 3 for the your deathwing, but makes sure that they actually get into the fight once they do so. At the same time, it balances out on the dependency of managing to position a unit of ravenwing well enough to get them to drop. Which gives your opponent a chance to try and negate your assault by removing the bikes and speeders first.

 

Question for everyone because I'm not a walking encyclopedia of every faction's rules. Does any currently existing rule allow a unit to deepstrike closer than or equal to 9" away?

[jaxom]

They're not going to give a Doctrine bonus specifically about Ravenwing or Deathwing, let's stop getting our hopes up.

 

It's probably going to be a Devastator or Tactical bonus, because we are a gunline army.

 

I just hope that we get a buffed Chapter Tactic like Blood Angels got. Because ours doesn't affect a good 60% of our units.... Because seriously.

 

Re-roll 1s when stationary? Cool. How's that affect any Ravenwing unit? Only lose one to morale? Deathwing are Fearless, and if you're taking Morale checks on a Ravenwing unit, it's probably already going to be wiped ANYWAY.

 

Grim Resolve only matters to Greenwing, and that's kind of sad.

 

I talked about a lot of these issues in the big DA wishlist thread. The only thing I'll touch on here is that Grim Resolve can be useful for Deathwing if one does not deep strike them. I've had good experiences with two squads of five with assault cannons securing an area while I use aura characters to give re-rolls to the parts of the army that need moving. 32 storm bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots with re-rolling ones is nothing to sneeze at. I deploy them last because most people assume I'll declare them as being set up in deep strike.

[Berzul]

I'd love to see an assault doctrine that was "Units with the Deathwing keyword may deepstrike more than 6" away from enemy models, as long as they do so entirely within 12" of a unit with the Ravenwing keyword".

 

Works only if you wait until turn 3 for the your deathwing, but makes sure that they actually get into the fight once they do so. At the same time, it balances out on the dependency of managing to position a unit of ravenwing well enough to get them to drop. Which gives your opponent a chance to try and negate your assault by removing the bikes and speeders first.

 

Question for everyone because I'm not a walking encyclopedia of every faction's rules. Does any currently existing rule allow a unit to deepstrike closer than or equal to 9" away?

 

Yeah, there are some rules. T'au, for instance, have homing beacons for deepstriking crisis teams.

[jaxom]

 

I'd love to see an assault doctrine that was "Units with the Deathwing keyword may deepstrike more than 6" away from enemy models, as long as they do so entirely within 12" of a unit with the Ravenwing keyword".

 

Works only if you wait until turn 3 for the your deathwing, but makes sure that they actually get into the fight once they do so. At the same time, it balances out on the dependency of managing to position a unit of ravenwing well enough to get them to drop. Which gives your opponent a chance to try and negate your assault by removing the bikes and speeders first.

 

Question for everyone because I'm not a walking encyclopedia of every faction's rules. Does any currently existing rule allow a unit to deepstrike closer than or equal to 9" away?

 

Yeah, there are some rules. T'au, for instance, have homing beacons for deepstriking crisis teams.

 

 

In that case, I could see this as a 2 or 3 CP stratagem. I think it's too niche to be a doctrine.

[Berzul]

 

 

I'd love to see an assault doctrine that was "Units with the Deathwing keyword may deepstrike more than 6" away from enemy models, as long as they do so entirely within 12" of a unit with the Ravenwing keyword".

 

Works only if you wait until turn 3 for the your deathwing, but makes sure that they actually get into the fight once they do so. At the same time, it balances out on the dependency of managing to position a unit of ravenwing well enough to get them to drop. Which gives your opponent a chance to try and negate your assault by removing the bikes and speeders first.

 

Question for everyone because I'm not a walking encyclopedia of every faction's rules. Does any currently existing rule allow a unit to deepstrike closer than or equal to 9" away?

 

Yeah, there are some rules. T'au, for instance, have homing beacons for deepstriking crisis teams.

 

 

In that case, I could see this as a 2 or 3 CP stratagem. I think it's too niche to be a doctrine.

 

 

Well, yeah. That has been theorized and discussed ad nauseam, even before PA.

 

Personally, I think adding it as a Doctrine would go a long way to incentivize people playing the wings as sub-forces that collaborate. A stratagem, given our issue with CPs, might not achieve that same effect. And, would then mostly work just for getting ONE squad to do something. A doctrine would allow you to play it in a more widespread way. With multiple squads being able to benefit from it at once.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Now that i've come to the realisation that PA4 will probably be released late january and that we will get no rules leak until the last week before the book release... i feel bitter :(

[Varizel]

Honestly for me, i would still get the model Lazarus for collection purpose, but .... i don't know.

1. Why GW gave us tabards style lower body instead of robes for primaris models. It kinda conflicts with most of DA models from 3rd - 4th edition aesthetic wise. Only the sarge from Dark vengeance, Belial, and DK shares the tabard lower body as far as i know.

 

2. The model Lazarus itself honestly is....something i feel like i can somewhat replicate the .. vibe/style? with the normal Primaris captain model and the DA veteran/upgrade sprue, and I'm not even a good modeller, The model feels... lacking. That's just me though. I'd still buy it for collection though, most likely he'll be just like hte lieutenant ... or heck... primaris marines and stay on the box  for now. 

 

As for rules for our chapter for chapter super doctrine, i hope it's not plasma based weapons tactics, but a more general usage. For Deathwing too, i hope they bring the strategem from the white dwarf (move after deepstrike) and put them as a detachment rule, ala ravenwing attack squadron. 

 

My 2 cents.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Varizel

[Robbienw]

I know what you mean Varizel, it does feel a bit lacking.  Feels a bit like the sculptor who did it wasn't that interested in the subject matter and didn't quite hit the right feel for a DA Master model.

[Fierce Bear]

I've been reading through the other SM chapter traits and their special Doctrines.

 

The pattern seems to be that the chapter trait i.e. Grim Resolve, will get a decent buff, something added, Then the super Doctrine picks one from Dev/Tact/Assault and has a nice addon to that.

 

In RoTD (PA4) for the DA I think the doctrine the DA are focused on will be critical to our buffs, should it be Tactical? The BA & SWs are/will be Assault right?

 

So looking at the buffs the WS, IFs, UM and BA etc got I could see it being something like:

 

- Grim Resolve (Re-roll 1s for failed hits when stationary & only lose one model to morale)... As it works in Overwatch maybe buff that overwatch to hits on 5s &6s as well? If not, perhaps the Stubborn Tenacity as an army wide trait?

 

That would be a nice buff to the gunline, also other SM (Iron Hands) already have something similar.

 

As for the doctrines,assumming Tactical, largely because of plasma (and melta guns?) And thinking about the DA being pitted against the Thousand Sons, how to counter all is dust...

 

Well +1 damage when in Tactical doctrine, the synergy with WoTDA and Grim Resolve... Those Hellblasters and heck even good old Tactical marines with a plasma gun and a combi plasma on the sergeant are nasty right?

 

I can dream Brothers can't I?

 

As for the DW and RW, I perhaps a new Deathwing Specialist Detachtment alongside the RW Vigilus one and something like reworking the inner circle similar to the BL (nasty heretics!) Council of traitors trait... That way you get Green Wing with 1 warlord trait then Deathwing with another and RW another... That way you get Re-roll charges, options to fight first, +1 str or auto pass morale...

 

...and heck it's Christmas, how about RW bike squads as troops!!!

Edited December 26, 2019 by Fierce Bear

[Archaeinox]

Whenever they post that Enmity's Edge short story I hope it is accompanied by more fluff in the form of a WarComm article- in the short story, the Rock is mentioned as crumbling and whatnot. Azrael is placing a lot of trust in Lazarus, and sending some of the Inner Circle to the Prospero area with little intelligence based upon 'hunches.' I think it's going to shape up to be interesting for all 3 factions, for sure

Edited December 26, 2019 by Archaeinox

[aura_enchanted]

How would people feel about a plasma and volkite oriented doctrine to offer incentive to use volkite weapons

[Dumah]

How many units can even take Volkites? One (Tartaros Termis)?

[Aztek]

How would people feel about a plasma and volkite oriented doctrine to offer incentive to use volkite weapons

I'd love a plasma doctrine. Volkites though? While cool, there aren't many, if any, non-forgeworld units that use Volkite.

[aura_enchanted]

Tartaros terminators and while contempor dreadnaughts can't take them in codex, out of codex they can certainly do so, same with predators. Edited December 27, 2019 by aura_enchanted

[jaxom]

I love the discussion going on here. This is internet and tone is hard to convey; while I try my best to write sentences that can't be read the wrong way I want to hedge my bets because this a topic that I feel pretty safe saying we're all invested in to one degree or another. My intent is not to poo-poo anyone's hard thought ideas, but to contribute my own perspective.

 

 

 

Personally, I think adding it as a Doctrine would go a long way to incentivize people playing the wings as sub-forces that collaborate. A stratagem, given our issue with CPs, might not achieve that same effect. And, would then mostly work just for getting ONE squad to do something. A doctrine would allow you to play it in a more widespread way. With multiple squads being able to benefit from it at once.

 

Very true. I think it was a thread on the Assault Phase, someone brought up the idea that a good rule system doesn't need special rules (personally I disagreed). We've seen GW purposely move away from special rules allowing certain units to be troops in favor of a set of universal detachments which can effectively let a player design an army around any slot. It seems the idea was that an army made of only "powerful units" would be balanced out by less CP. I think we can all agree that this did not pan out for a variety of reasons. CP count has become as important as points in comparing if two armies are similarly composed (e.g. 1000 pts isn't too different from 1025, but is from 2000 and 5 CP isn't too different from 7, but is from 10). Yet, if a Dark Angels player wants to have a fluffy Hunt the Fallen list of Ravenwing and Deathing we can't work in a battalion for extra CP. However, I think the most straightforward fix would be taking a page from the Drukhari and have a faction rule which gives bonus CP to a specific detachment types. For the Dark Angels it could be Outrider and Vanguard detachments gain bonus CP if all models in the army have DEATHWING and/or RAVENWING. 

 

 

Honestly for me, i would still get the model Lazarus for collection purpose, but .... i don't know.

1. Why GW gave us tabards style lower body instead of robes for primaris models. It kinda conflicts with most of DA models from 3rd - 4th edition aesthetic wise. Only the sarge from Dark vengeance, Belial, and DK shares the tabard lower body as far as i know.

 

2. The model Lazarus itself honestly is....something i feel like i can somewhat replicate the .. vibe/style? with the normal Primaris captain model and the DA veteran/upgrade sprue, and I'm not even a good modeller, The model feels... lacking. That's just me though. I'd still buy it for collection though, most likely he'll be just like hte lieutenant ... or heck... primaris marines and stay on the box  for now. 

 

As for rules for our chapter for chapter super doctrine, i hope it's not plasma based weapons tactics, but a more general usage. For Deathwing too, i hope they bring the strategem from the white dwarf (move after deepstrike) and put them as a detachment rule, ala ravenwing attack squadron. 

 

My 2 cents.

 

I know what you mean Varizel, it does feel a bit lacking.  Feels a bit like the sculptor who did it wasn't that interested in the subject matter and didn't quite hit the right feel for a DA Master model.

 

The Dark Angels aesthetic is kind of like comic book superheroes: a lot of how they tend to be viewed depends on who's doing them when one is introduced to them. Regardless, the current range has a variety of surplices (Chaplains and Balthasar), tabards (Deathwing Knights), and robes (many characters, Veterans - both full and only outer); it may not be everyone's aesthetic, but it's not coming out of nowhere. GW had put a lot of effort in being able to roll out better basic kits with more options (at least looking at 5th-7th editions). Kitbashing an awesome looking character was easier than ever. Heck, look at the impact the release of the Sanguinary Guard had on kitbashed Dantes. Kitbashing Azrael is also quite doable. My issue is that it's hard to care about him. Special characters, I feel, need to be more than just additional rules. There needs to be a greater story or importance to them. We've been told that Lazarus stands out as really hating Thousand Sons, but that's a statement currently as useful as a chocolate teacup. The majority of new special characters came from Black Library novels (e.g. Agatone in Nick Kyme's books or Comissar Raine in Rachel Harrison's short stories) or had an important impact in official GW campaign material (e.g. Garadon in Sentinals of Terra). Until we get Enmity's Edge I reserve judgement.

 

 

There's a lot here, so I hope you don't mind if I chunk it to give my thoughts more context.

 

 

 

The pattern seems to be that the chapter trait i.e. Grim Resolve, will get a decent buff, something added,

 

I'm not sure it will. If one looks at the Codex rules and traits, then the Dark Angels already fit the new pattern of one unique effect and one Successor effect. Blood Angels, for example, already had the unique +1 to wound rolls on the charge and then Hungry for Battle (+1 to Advance and Charge rolls) was added onto it in Blood of Baal. Grim Resolve already has two effects: one is Indomitable (only one model ever flees) and the other is the unique re-roll ones to hit if you didn't move. As you noted, Iron Hands are the odd ones with their unique effect actually being two (the 6++ ignore wounds and the Overwatching on 5s and 6s). So, considering Dark Angels used to be able to do that, you maybe on to something thinking we may get Overwatching on 5s and 6s.

 

 

 

should it be Tactical? The BA & SWs are/will be Assault right?

Blood Angels get their super-doctrine (+1 attack on top of Shock Assault) during the Assault Doctrine - it's a good conceptual fit and it reveals a bit about how the designers think a Blood Angels list should be built and played. It is also very low on the Law of Unintended Consequences regarding being really good for building lists that are not quite in line with the way the faction is presented or being too specific that it promotes avoiding lists which should otherwise make sense (seriously, one would expect White Scars to be more likely to field flyers than Iron Hands and it takes three or four more words in each relevant rule to make that happen).

 

We can pretty safely say the Dark Angels are a gun line army, but we can say the same for Imperial Fists and they're designed to transition from Devastator (where they get their super-doctrine) to Tactical. Yet, I think many people have identified plasma as the most likely place were a super-doctrine will come into play (like flamers and Salamanders). If Devastator Doctrine it would synergize with plasma cannons, heavy plasma cannons, plasma storm battery, macro plasma incinerator, and heavy plasma incinerator. If Tactical Doctrine it would synergize plasma guns, plasma talons, plasma blasters, plasma incinerators, and assault plasma incinerators.

 

 

 

Well +1 damage when in Tactical doctrine, the synergy with WoTDA and Grim Resolve... Those Hellblasters and heck even good old Tactical marines with a plasma gun and a combi plasma on the sergeant are nasty right?

The synergy with WotDA is why I think that +1 Damage is not as likely as +1 to wound. The three comparisons we have are White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders. The former have strict limitations on when their bonus applies (on the charge/heroic intervention and against vehicles/buildings, respectively). On the flip side, they have great Warlord Traits, Relics, and Stratagems. Giving a damage bonus to a wide array of weapons, with no limitations on target (IF) or setting it up (WS), and on top of WotDA. Regardless of if it is likely for the designers to do that I'd rather we save some of that power for other areas of the army.

 

 

 

As for the DW and RW, I perhaps a new Deathwing Specialist Detachtment alongside the RW Vigilus one and something like reworking the inner circle similar to the BL (nasty heretics!) Council of traitors trait... That way you get Green Wing with 1 warlord trait then Deathwing with another and RW another... That way you get Re-roll charges, options to fight first, +1 str or auto pass morale...

 

I love the idea and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the only one disappointed the design team decided not to pursue further specialist detachments. I would do unspeakable things if it meant GW would announce something like the old D20 license or the current DM Guild system. I would then proceed to pump out Specialist Detachments at a rate that would worry my friends and family. Ahem. However, if C:SM and Psychic Awakening are predictors, then it is possible we'll get stratagems like what you mention without the specialist detachment tax. We've seen updated Marine factions receive stratagems for multiple warlord traits on a single character and warlord traits on multiple characters.

 

 

 

At least a broken rubric on the base!

This got me curious and Lazarus in the only Primaris special character who doesn't have some sort of scenic detail on the base. I agree, it is definitely as missed opportunity and would have added some more character to the model, especially if he's all about smacking around Thousand Sons. I did check the Facebook post with the other model options to see if there was anything. Nothing about bases, but there was this: "The option for a helmeted Company Master will be available in the kit!" and it goes with the bolter option. I think the kit is like the Age of Sigmar ones where you can build a named hero (Lazarus) or a generic hero (Primaris Master with Master-Crafted Bolter and Power Sword to replace this for Dark Angel players). Goes a long way to explaining why the sword is so generic. Honestly, though, even our special character's swords are very plain. 

 

EDIT: spaced out and had one of the quotations in a spoiler box instead of a quotation box.

Edited December 27, 2019 by jaxom

[Gederas]

Grim Resolve only matters to Greenwing, and that's kind of sad.

Yeah, how dare they to make a rule for only 8 out the 10 Companies!

I was referring to the fact that the CHAPTER tactic isn't relevant to the entire CHAPTER of units.

 

The biggest thing that separates Dark Angels from other marines is the Deathwing and Ravenwing. But our Chapter Tactic might as well not exist for those units... Hell, if you play a pure force of Deathwing or Ravenwing the Chapter Tactic basically DOESN'T exist.

 

That's what I was referring to. Deathwing and Ravenwing don't get any benefit from Grim Resolve, or only get minor benefit (in the case of the rerolling 1s being useful for Terminators) from it.

 

It's probably my biggest issue with the Dark Angels codex.

 

Tartaros terminators and while contempor dreadnaughts can't take them in codex, out of codex they can certainly do so, same with predators.

Uhhh... No they can't. Volkite Weapons, outside of the Tartaros Terminators and the Termite Assault Drill, are exclusively 30k for Marines.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Gederas

[aura_enchanted]

anyone think they will bring back our three sacred banners for our ancients like how codex marines and blood angels both got new banners. maybe divide them up between core, raven and death.

 

id love for a ravening banner relic for the banner of fortitude. old banner of fort too, the 6+++ on a raven bike would be a mean mean tool in the hat

[TempestBlade]

I hope so aura because right now the Ravenwing ancient isn’t too useful. I feel the +1 attack isn’t bad but RW rather be zipping around cracking off shots then getting stuck into combat. I know about the strat from the vigilus book that they can jump out of combat but only 1 squad can do that.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Regarding Terminators i made a thread about them and also sent an email to GW, here's a bit regarding Deathwing :

 

 

Terminator Assault

When Deep Striking this unit, if it is set up within 3'' of a Teleport Homer or another unit with the TERMINATOR keyword, it may immediately consolidate.

 

Such rule would surely not be enough to encourage the players to play a Terminator army but that would be a good step towards it.

Regarding Dark Angels the ability to deploy Teleport Homers with the Ravenwing was a thing at some point if i'm not mistaken, it would be so great to have it back.

[Angel of Solitude]

In another thread I was reminded about the "Combat Doctrine" section of the recent White Dwarf article. Particularly the mention of "new specialist formations", such as Hammer of Caliban, Scout Recon Stalker Strike and Caliban's Reach. There are specific pairings mentioned as follows:

• Devastator Centurions and Hellblasters - odd, given that we don't currently have Devastator Centurions. However, DC's have the Omniscope (ignore cover) and Decimator Protocols (no penalty for moving/firing heavy weapons) abilities. Perhaps a squad of these alongside some Hellblasters will confer these abilities to the Hellbaster squad?
• Infiltrator Squads and Ravenwing - I'd speculate that Ravenwing will be able to get the ability to charge with no overwatch if there is an infiltrator squad within 12" of the enemy
• Incursor Squads and Deathwing - Two options here. One is that the Multi-spectrum arrayof the Incursors applies to nearby Deathwing squads, giving them the ability to ignore negative hit-modifiers. Or alternatively this may be the nearest we get to the teleport homing beacon - "The Divinator-calss auspexes and transpectral combat visors of Incursor Squads...yield new intelligence for the Inner Circle to act upon without the Vanguard Space Marines' knowledge".

Given that this same article pretty much confirmed Lazarus as a new model, I'm inclined to think these other sections will be on the money too - basically, Codex Astartes-compliant Primaris marines working alongside Deathwing and Ravenwing.

 

On that note, I'm off to order myself some Devastator Centurions...

[Grimdark_Garage]

What were likley to get :

• Selection of sacred Banners that can be taken on any INFANTRY Ancient
• 1 DA Specific Litany
• Interrorgator Chaplains litanies are activated on a 2+
• New Asmodai Datasheet
• New Psychic Powers
• New Warlord Traits
• New Relics
• Selection of Ravenwing Tactics/Traits that you can choose from that replace Grim Resolve for Ravenwing units if you take a Talonmaster or Sammeal in a dedicated detahcment
• Selection of Deathwing Tactics/Traits that you can choose from that replace Grim Resolve for Deathwing units if you take a Terminator HQ Character in a dedicated detahcment
• Vigilus strategems to be standard DA strategems (no need for RW attack squadron)
• New strategems
• Master Lazarus Datasheet

What we might get

• Some sort of synergy between phobos infantry units and Deathwing / Ravenwing
• Re-working of Grim Reoslve
• Something to do with Plasma
• Re-working of Inner Circle
• Deathwing Agressors

What we wont get ...

• Teleport relic that can be granted to a Gravis Master to allow Master and 1x Aggressor unit to deepstrike
• New Azreal datasheet
• New Belial datasheet
• New Sammeal datasheet
• New Talonmaster datasheet
• Chapter trait for a mono-codex DA army
• Watchers in the Dark upgrades for Characters

[UtariOnzo]

I don’t think we’ll be getting Centurions either, as they (along with the Thunder Cannon) were really meant as Codex: SM exclusive toys to make up for the special units BA/SW/DA get access to. Likely the WD article messed up there and the formation ideas were added fluff to show our chapter using and abusing Primaris beyond just cannon fodder.