Ritual of the Damned - Psychic Awakening

[G8Keeper]

Ooo fury of the first on TH+SS termies, or just DW Knights, add in the 6" deepstrike and woop, reliable no character buff melee.

[jaxom]

I'm almost more excited for ten Deathwing with Fury of the First, landing next to a Chaplain and hit on 2s re-roll 1s, in Tactical Doctrine just shredding light infantry.

[ValourousHeart]

Are landspeeders going to be good now then? I still think they are a bit too expensive and fragile for what they offer and if the LSV has that dumb overcharge rule then it's still rubbish in my eyes.

 

Speeders have been good for several editions, but this edition has done nothing but good things for speeders.  And this is just one more boon for them.

 

I'm not a fan of the Vengeance either, I think it should have a rule similar to the dreadnought heavy plasma cannon, perhaps even change the the weapon to just be 2 heavy plasma Cannons.  The rubbish part of the rule is that the weapon is destroyed after 1 overheat.

 

As to the cost for what they offer, I am curious what you are comparing them to? 

 

In my mind, Speeders are a fire support unit, so here is how I see them stack up to some classic fire support units.

 

A 6 man Dev squad with 3 HB has the same number of wounds and number of long range shots as the speeders.  The Dev Squad is 108 points compared to a HB/AC speeder for 77 points.  The speeder will generally be hitting on 4+ instead of 3+ but has the speed to get into LOS for targets hiding from the Dev squad.  And that doesn't  touch on the difference between the 2 HB and the AC or the fact that the firepower of the Dev squad starts being effected after the 3rd failed save, but the Speeder isn't effected until after the 6th failed save.

 

Or if you would rather look at Inceptors.  A squad of 3 Inceptors with Assault Bolters clocks in at 123 points, which is cheaper than 2 HB/AC speeders which cost 154 points.  For those 31 points you are getting 12 shots increased to S6 and +5 wounds.  Additionally you have the same issue with Inceptors that you did with the Dev Squad, they start losing firepower after the 2nd failed save, and as I said before the speeders don't lose any firepower until after the 6th failed save.

 

I would like to hear your perspective and what you are matching them against that you feel that they are expensive and fragile.

 

Thinking speeders might be a little gem unit for us now

Glad I own 20+ not including characters and support speeders I don’t think I have a problem with speeders do I guys)

[Aztek]

Woooo! Grabbing some Black Knights as a delivery system for 10 Deathwing Knights! Super happy with Lazarus, he will be in my army. Super happy with our doctrine. Overall just great news. Rejoice brothers!

[Neuralshock]

I wonder if we'll get a chapter tactic+? I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility considering red thirst got an update. Maybe we'll get the "no overheat on 1's we've always wanted

[Gederas]

I wonder if we'll get a chapter tactic+? I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility considering red thirst got an update. Maybe we'll get the "no overheat on 1's we've always wanted

I hope we get something. Because half of Grim Resolve might as well not exist for half our units, and the other half is rarely relevant for those ones either (Re-roll 1s when stationary, and only lose 1 to morale. Both are pretty is pointless on Deathwing [seeing as how Deathwing don't take Morale period] and Ravenwing squads are so small/have such good LD that if you're losing to morale, the squad is likely going to be wiped anyway)

Edited January 16, 2020 by Gederas

[Knight Artorias]

I think vehicles getting Grim Resolve is all we're gonna get. I would love if they added an extra bit to it, but I think we would have heard about it in the leak. 

[BrainFireBob]

Thought that was the +6" on heavy weapons and 3" on rapid fire, and assault while in Dev doctrine

[G8Keeper]

Thought that was the +6" on heavy weapons and 3" on rapid fire, and assault while in Dev doctrine

 

I believe it's +6" on heavy and rapid fire, +3" on assault and pistol. That's in addition to grim resolve now on everything DA.

[SnakeChisler]

The inceptors are now 3 wounds each and can get buffed by a variety of character aura's

 

The speeders are getting better at being value for thier points but there's so many good toys in the box, a better comparison would be with attack bikes which to me seem a better all round choice kitted with heavy bolter there 37 each so 74 for 8 wounds 8 bolter shots at 30 and 6 Hb shots at 42 and can make use of aura's better.

 

The real kicker for taking inceptors is your never going to go out of Devastators doctrines so an Azreal plasma blob is even more inviting as are inceptors plasma weaponry

 

Ravenwing since the Talon Master came along have been an excellent choice overall because of the ignores cover aura he gives adding 6" range to thier weapons is gold

[Angel of Solitude]

 

I wonder if we'll get a chapter tactic+? I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility considering red thirst got an update. Maybe we'll get the "no overheat on 1's we've always wanted

I hope we get something. Because half of Grim Resolve might as well not exist for half our units, and the other half is rarely relevant for those ones either (Re-roll 1s when stationary, and only lose 1 to morale. Both are pretty is pointless on Deathwing [seeing as how Deathwing don't take Morale period] and Ravenwing squads are so small/have such good LD that if you're losing to morale, the squad is likely going to be wiped anyway)

 

Already having re-roll 1's to hit if stationary on vehicles is a massive boost. Combined with the increased range during Devastator Doctrine, that allows us to have a really strong, punishing backline that can safely deploy out of harm's way and doesn't need a Master to provide re-rolls.

 

Regarding the second half of Grim Resolve, yes it doesn't apply to Deathwing but it does apply to Ravenwing and everybody else. Previous DA army build meta has been to bring MSU troops to give command points to then spend elsewhere. Given that we now have access to all the nice Space Marine stratagems that really boost Intercessor squads, then I think there's a build somewhere that includes a full-sized squad of troops that is, to all intents and purposes, immune to morale checks, but can maximise the benefit of the stratagems. Facing an incoming tide of Genestealers? 40 S4 AP-2 D1 shots at 36" would do quite nicely there.

 

Alternatively - send a Repulsor up the table, firing all weapons without penalty, then turn 2 you unload your 10 veteran intercessors to unleash hell in both shooting and combat.

 

I agree that there are better Chapter Tactics out there - but ours really isn't bad, and hopefully lends itself to some unique list designs.

[G8Keeper]

 

I agree that there are better Chapter Tactics out there - but ours really isn't bad, and hopefully lends itself to some unique list designs.

 

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Coupled with the other changes, DA are in a very good place with a great variety of decent builds.  It certainly won't be boring to play.

[Angel of Solitude]

The speeders are getting better at being value for thier points but there's so many good toys in the box, a better comparison would be with attack bikes which to me seem a better all round choice kitted with heavy bolter there 37 each so 74 for 8 wounds 8 bolter shots at 30 and 6 Hb shots at 42 and can make use of aura's better.

 

For me, the key advantages of the Land Speeder over the Attack BIke are (1) speed, (2) FLY keyword and (3) weapon variety. Give an Attack Biker a Heavy Bolter, and it's a largely anti-infantry platform. Give it a Multi-melta and it's an anti-vehicle platform. Land Speeders can take two weapons, including the Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer and Typhoon Missile Launcher - already there is more utility. Also, if you have three in a squad you already have a 20" range that doesn't worry about terrain.

 

No doubt there will be plenty of experimentation with lists over the next few months, so it will be exciting to see what effective combinations we can find!

[Fierce Bear]

I think these changes will give us a lot of useful 'tools' the hard part I think is that with so many good options and combos that you may find it hard to have a 'one list for all comers' approach?

 

Mind you as sons of the Lion, being brilliant strategists is why we do right?

[SnakeChisler]

Before anyone gets to hot on the tactical doctrines with the buff we've been given your never going to move from Devastator doctrines.

 

Speeders are in a funny position due to thier usefulness but blighted by having the vehicle keyword, even before the new hotness of iron hands and Imperial fists vehicles were starting to struggle.

 

On another note my 3 new flamer warsuit just got one hell of a bump, the incedium cannon is heavy so your getting a full 50% increase in its range or if your firewalling them your heavy autocannon is 54" the medium range weapons become even better at 42" and a buff to the assault launcher.

 

Warsuits are only 10 points a wound and extremely useful in both configurations, infiltrating them really helps.

 

With the warlord traits your going to have to have regen command points, there's just so much stuff to burn them on though

[G8Keeper]

Before anyone gets to hot on the tactical doctrines with the buff we've been given your never going to move from Devastator doctrines.

 

Speeders are in a funny position due to thier usefulness but blighted by having the vehicle keyword, even before the new hotness of iron hands and Imperial fists vehicles were starting to struggle.

 

On another note my 3 new flamer warsuit just got one hell of a bump, the incedium cannon is heavy so your getting a full 50% increase in its range or if your firewalling them your heavy autocannon is 54" the medium range weapons become even better at 42" and a buff to the assault launcher.

 

Warsuits are only 10 points a wound and extremely useful in both configurations, infiltrating them really helps.

 

With the warlord traits your going to have to have regen command points, there's just so much stuff to burn them on though

 

I think that depends on the individual game situation.  Imagine a scenario where a fair chunk of your heavy weapons are either stuck in combat or dead and the enemy is in your lines, time to start switching, those bolters become pretty useful in tactical doctrine and you don't need the extra range.  Next turn, uhoh I've been charged by everyone... time to switch to assault.  Simplistic I know but it's not black and white by any means. Just my opinion of course.

[Angel of Solitude]

While there is the temptation to stay in the Devastator doctrine, the way I'm planning to run my army I'll probably want to move through all the disciplines and end up at Assault.

 

The way I see it, by turn 2 you shouldn't have need for the extra range on weapons. First, because you will have moved your units forward (e.g. Intercessor Squads, Bike Squads), and second, you'll probably have forced the enemy to bring their units forward into range. At this stage, AP-1 on your boltguns and AP-2 on your bolt rifles will be preferable. Oh and AP-4 on your Black Knights.

 

Then, by turn 3 I'll expect to bring the Deathwing down, and get my bikes into combat. Maces of absolution become brutal during the Assault doctrine with a Sx2 AP-3 3D profile with no negative hit modifier, Corvus Hammers get extra bite at AP-2, and regular chainswords get an AP-1 profile too.

 

Positioning all this is going to be challenging, but if you pull it off, it should wreck.

[jaxom]

Positioning all this is going to be challenging, but if you pull it off, it should wreck.

The new battle cry of the Dark Angels.

[Angel of Solitude]

Reading through the leaked stratagems again, I think I might grow to like Targeting Guidance.

 

"Use this stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Select one enemy unit within 12" and visible to a RAVENWING LANDSPEEDER unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit against that unit, you can re-roll the hit roll."

 

That's for a single command point, folks. One enemy unit, within 12" of a landspeeder - regular, Talonmaster, Vengeance, Dark Shroud - and your WHOLE ARMY can target it and get full to-hit rerolls. Not any unit within 6" like a Master, the WHOLE ARMY.

 

Stick a Las-Predator backline with 54" range lascannons, Catechism of FIre to give a +1 to Hit, and already any enemy flyer is going to wilt very quickly.

[Hantheman]

Oh these rules are just so fun. It’s expanded us into a really flexible army that can pull off some obnoxious stuff but not dull gunline crap.

[G8Keeper]

Reading through the leaked stratagems again, I think I might grow to like Targeting Guidance.

 

"Use this stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Select one enemy unit within 12" and visible to a RAVENWING LANDSPEEDER unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit against that unit, you can re-roll the hit roll."

 

That's for a single command point, folks. One enemy unit, within 12" of a landspeeder - regular, Talonmaster, Vengeance, Dark Shroud - and your WHOLE ARMY can target it and get full to-hit rerolls. Not any unit within 6" like a Master, the WHOLE ARMY.

 

Stick a Las-Predator backline with 54" range lascannons, Catechism of FIre to give a +1 to Hit, and already any enemy flyer is going to wilt very quickly.

 

Looking at a pretty decent counter to Alaitoc flywing there, imagine if the Nephilim Jetfighter actually had a +1 to hit vs flyers (like it's name suggests it should), dogfight win!

[jaxom]

 

Stick a Las-Predator backline with 54" range lascannons, Catechism of FIre to give a +1 to Hit, and already any enemy flyer is going to wilt very quickly.

 

I love me some Catechism of Fire, but to clarify I think you meant Recitation of Focus. Catechism of Fire is +1 to wound against the closest visible enemy unit. It's great for clearing out a forward deployed screen.

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Reading through the leaked stratagems again, I think I might grow to like Targeting Guidance.

 

"Use this stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Select one enemy unit within 12" and visible to a RAVENWING LANDSPEEDER unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit against that unit, you can re-roll the hit roll."

 

That's for a single command point, folks. One enemy unit, within 12" of a landspeeder - regular, Talonmaster, Vengeance, Dark Shroud - and your WHOLE ARMY can target it and get full to-hit rerolls. Not any unit within 6" like a Master, the WHOLE ARMY.

 

Stick a Las-Predator backline with 54" range lascannons, Catechism of FIre to give a +1 to Hit, and already any enemy flyer is going to wilt very quickly.

 

Looking at a pretty decent counter to Alaitoc flywing there, imagine if the Nephilim Jetfighter actually had a +1 to hit vs flyers (like it's name suggests it should), dogfight win!

 

Y'know, the Nephilim could potentially be one of the better lascannon platforms out there. 147 points for two S7 AP-4 2D shots at 42" turn 1, and two S9 AP-4 d6D shots at 54" turn 1, hitting on 2's...all for 147 points. Plus, you can pop High Speed Focus off to give it a 4++ in addition to its -1 to hit. Oh and it's also a nice screening unit for that RAVENWING BIKER CHARACTER that you're trying to advance up the board so that you can deepstrike your Deathwing in.

[Guest MistaGav]

 

Are landspeeders going to be good now then? I still think they are a bit too expensive and fragile for what they offer and if the LSV has that dumb overcharge rule then it's still rubbish in my eyes.

 

Speeders have been good for several editions, but this edition has done nothing but good things for speeders.  And this is just one more boon for them.

 

I guess I've always felt to be they were hindered by still being a tad too expensive for my liking, too fragile and hampered by moving with heavy weapons. I can see some uses now thanks to the Warlord trait and stratagem so we'll see. I do actually have 2 typhoons and I might get some more but not sure what weapons to give now.

 

If the LSV got a new datasheet to change its main weapon to get rid of that overheat system I could defo see them becoming more useful.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

Are landspeeders going to be good now then? I still think they are a bit too expensive and fragile for what they offer and if the LSV has that dumb overcharge rule then it's still rubbish in my eyes.

 

Speeders have been good for several editions, but this edition has done nothing but good things for speeders.  And this is just one more boon for them.

 

I guess I've always felt to be they were hindered by still being a tad too expensive for my liking, too fragile and hampered by moving with heavy weapons. I can see some uses now thanks to the Warlord trait and stratagem so we'll see. I do actually have 2 typhoons and I might get some more but not sure what weapons to give now.

 

If the LSV got a new datasheet to change its main weapon to get rid of that overheat system I could defo see them becoming more useful.

 

I guess it all comes down to a matter of perspective.  In my mind speeders aren't more fragile than other units.  If you routinely put units in isolated sections of the board where they can get cut off from the rest of your forces even something like an IK can become fragile.  The issue with speeders is that they have the speed to easily allow the player to put them in compromised positions.

 

You wouldn't deep strike a TDA Captain by himself in a remote section of the board and expect him to survive very long.  Then why would you expect a similarly priced vehicle with a worse save and no invulnerable save to perform better when used in a similarly foolish way?

 

I don't think the LSV needs to lose the overheat rule, or even the 3 wounds when it rolls a 1 to hit.  The only thing that it needs to lose is the can't use the weapon again.