Where have the back-banners gone?

[Toxichobbit]

Back banners died with Primaris. They aren't tacticool enough. As others noted, Tigurius is the only Primaris to still have one. On the older Marine kits, they're still quite prevelant. Really old stuff like Terminators has them, more modern stuff like the Tactical Squad, Mk III & IV squads, Blood Angels Tactical Squad, Captain etc have them. I don't think anything in the last Marine release before Primaris had any - the Devastator and Assault Marine re-design don't, though the Devastator Sergeant has a back mounted signum so no room for a banner and the Assault Marines are usually represented with jump packs (though the kit does include options for non-jump pack builds but no back banner). Lots of newer kits also include their cousin, the back icon - Sternguard, Assault Marines, Command Squad Captain, Librarian, Terminator Librarian, Centurions etc.

 

The models released along with the second edition had back-banners for the squad leaders.  When GW released the re-designed Jes Goodwin plastic Space Marine sprue (~2000?), they didn't include any back-banner parts in it.  I believe that was around 3rd Edition and the Third War for Armageddon campaign.

 

Nope. Lots of kits during 3rd and every edition up to and including 7th had back banners. The very kit you're talking about, the 1998 Tactical Marine re-design, had the old style back banners that needed a paper banner added to them.

 

I think the back banners disappeared around the same time Ultramarines got their new darker paint scheme (darker blue, gold trim, black bolter casings), which happened at the switch to fourth edition, I believe. Around that time some of the more goofy aspects of the models (like the candybar color scheme of the ultramarines) were quietly being phased out. 

 

In my opinion, good riddance too. When I just started the hobby in 3rd edition, a glued on one back banner, because that what the sergeant on the box had, realized how silly it was, and cut it off again. Also, it did not help that the back banner was really only the pole, without the actual banner.

 

Nope. Back banners were still prevelant during 4th edition kits, though they appear less in photos. That was the edition that saw them switch from plastic poles where you needed to add a back banner, to having the cloth sculpted in plastic (the Black Templar upgrade sprue, for example, is 4th). Also, some units that didn't exist during 3rd, such as the Ironclad Dreadnought, have back banners in their kits.

 

Don't some of the upgrade sprues still have banners?

 

I thin it also has to do with the Ancient becoming a unit. I don't know when those were introduced, but banners aren't dead- It just seems to have become the responsibility of the Ancient to carry them, rather than every sergeant having one on his back.

 

Also is it just me or is it weird that you can't just get a Primaris Ancient? They only came in the Dark Imperium box and never got a model individually, did they?

It has nothing to do with the Ancient. Ancients have always existed, though they've not always been known as Ancients. They existed as a seperate unit during 2nd edition, the era when there was a back banner for every 5 guys in a squad (or for every guy, if you were greedy Eldar or Orks). And they've existed in every edition since, though from 3rd to 7th they were an upgrade to a member of the Command Squad, the same way that the Millitarum's Regimental Standard is nowadays.

 

Still no individual release of the Primaris Ancient, unless you count the issue of Warhammer 40,000 Conquest that included his sprue from Dark Imperium.

[battle captain corpus]

-][- KEEP IT CIVIL AND QUIT THE BAITING PLEASE -][-

 

BCC

[Firedrake Cordova]

 

The models released along with the second edition had back-banners for the squad leaders.  When GW released the re-designed Jes Goodwin plastic Space Marine sprue (~2000?), they didn't include any back-banner parts in it.  I believe that was around 3rd Edition and the Third War for Armageddon campaign.

 

Nope. Lots of kits during 3rd and every edition up to and including 7th had back banners. The very kit you're talking about, the 1998 Tactical Marine re-design, had the old style back banners that needed a paper banner added to them.

The sergeant's back-banner was part of the command accessories sprue (along with the missile launcher and flamer).  The Salamanders Tactical Squad box that was released alongside the Armageddon mini-codex omitted this in favour of a metal plasma gun and multi-melta.  So, I guess we're both right. :)

[Toxichobbit]

 

 

The models released along with the second edition had back-banners for the squad leaders.  When GW released the re-designed Jes Goodwin plastic Space Marine sprue (~2000?), they didn't include any back-banner parts in it.  I believe that was around 3rd Edition and the Third War for Armageddon campaign.

 

Nope. Lots of kits during 3rd and every edition up to and including 7th had back banners. The very kit you're talking about, the 1998 Tactical Marine re-design, had the old style back banners that needed a paper banner added to them.

The sergeant's back-banner was part of the command accessories sprue (along with the missile launcher and flamer).  The Salamanders Tactical Squad box that was released alongside the Armageddon mini-codex omitted this in favour of a metal plasma gun and multi-melta.  So, I guess we're both right.

 

 

Ahh, yeah I see what you're saying. I suspect the Templar box from around the same time might have been the same, just with the command sprue replaced with bolt pistol/chainsword sprues from the Assault Squad box.

[Closet Skeleton]

The models released along with the second edition had back-banners for the squad leaders.  When GW released the re-designed Jes Goodwin plastic Space Marine sprue (~2000?), they didn't include any back-banner parts in it.  I believe that was around 3rd Edition and the Third War for Armageddon campaign.

 

Yes they did, it was on the 'accessory sprue' with the sergeant's chainsword, mark VIII breastplate and rocket launcher,

 

http://www.solegends.com/citcat2004us/c2004usp0276-00.htm

 

Space Wolves got their own version of the sprue.

 

http://www.solegends.com/citcat2004us/c2004usp0323-02.htm

 

This was the last banner pole design, later ones had plastic molded banners.

 

I remember when every sergeant had a banner, squads had a “squad leader” who was the squads’s 2IC, and he’d have a banner too. Hell dreadnought had banners too. It was pretty cool. But as others have said, banners have long gone out of fashion. Plus there are drawbacks to having them with the way LoS rules work. Having said that if you wanna go retro and give your models back banners more power to you, rule of cool and all that.

 

Only plastic dreadnought kit to have a banner was the Ironclad for who knows why. The older Forgeworld Venerable dreads sometimes had them .

 

 

 

Ahh, yeah I see what you're saying. I suspect the Templar box from around the same time might have been the same, just with the command sprue replaced with bolt pistol/chainsword sprues from the Assault Squad box.

 

This one? It has metal scouts and what looks like the old assault marine/blood claw chainsword arms with the basic weapon poses.

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/games-workshop-space-marine-black-76129190

 

May also have had metal shoulder pads since they're in the 2004 catalogue.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[Toxichobbit]

 

Ahh, yeah I see what you're saying. I suspect the Templar box from around the same time might have been the same, just with the command sprue replaced with bolt pistol/chainsword sprues from the Assault Squad box.

 

This one? It has metal scouts and what looks like the old assault marine/blood claw chainsword arms with the basic weapon poses.

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/games-workshop-space-marine-black-76129190

 

May also have had metal shoulder pads since they're in the 2004 catalogue.

 

 

That's it! I couldn't find it anywhere. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it had the Scouts in or not. I remember it was before the Scouts were plastic though, but they were less fussed about mixing materials in box sets at that time (The Devastator squad of the time was a plastic/metal hybrid - not very stable). I don't think it had metal shoulder pads, IIRC they were only available seperately.

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I had that box, it was really good value at the time. No metal shoulder pads however. 

[BitsHammer]

Honestly, I think True Line of Sight killed the back banner and GW just followed suit to match the demands of their customer base.

[Brother Cambrius]

Honestly, I think True Line of Sight killed the back banner and GW just followed suit to match the demands of their customer base.

 

Very much this I think. I still add back banners onto my commanders of note, but TLOS still preys on my mind when building rank and file Tacticals and such so I never add it onto Sergeants.

 

Cambrius

[Ishagu]

Back banners, to me personally, are one of the worst aspects of the older models.

 

It's hard to fear a warrior who's greatest enemy is a narrow ceiling.

[battle captain corpus]

-][- Ok we have meandered far enough for now about true line of sight. Whilst it had an obvious influence over back banners it’s not the be all and end all. Let’s try and get back on topic as we’re simply chatting in endless circles here, plus rules modifications etc are a different topic. -][-

 

BCC

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I haven't put any backbanners on my Iron Hands because I've always agreed that they're illogical and clutter things up.

 

I am however putting them on my squad sergeants for my Marines Errant to give them more of a classic, Space Marine-y feel.

[BitsHammer]

How could back banners be illogical? I mean this one is clearly making these Space Wolves stealthier.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I am a fan of them. Realistically they are not practical at all, but nothing in 40k is. I feel Space Marines we're originally designed as knights in space, and knights had banners and flags and stuff to represent fealty/house/king/family and such. Chainswords are even sillier when you have the plethora of year 40,000 ranged weapons, but that doesn't make them any less cool.

 

Although not banners, I put the Noxious Blightbringer's Bell on all of my plague marine champions to show they are the squad leader. But I believe rule of cool > crunch, and not everyone else does.

[Sgt.Sangha]

As I mentioned earlier space wolves still have back banners in their kit and on grey hunters they even have an in game effect. Maybe if GW gives a an ability offered by squads who carry them you'd see more of them

[Marshal Reinhard]

I feel there's a multitude of things that can be placed up there instead that are less cumbersome than a full blown banner, like icons, relics, braziers, candles etc, heck there's even practical things like iron halos and even weaponry in some cases

[CommodusXIII]

Sure - I like candles.

 

[Lucerne]

Back banners work very well for certain aesthetics- DOW2 for force commanders and tactical squads shows they can look pretty great, while a nice flagellant banner is good for adding atmosphere to your Chaos Marine.

 

As for practicality, well, some Marine aesthetics are about "taking pride in your colours" or making it obvious you're a Champion, which banners are ideal for. Good to show a veteran or character.

 

Sure, I'd never use them when modelling, say, Raven Guard or Alpha legion but there are a lot of Chapters and Legions that aren't full on tacticool. Word Bearers or, say, Ultramarines? They'd fit.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Lucerne

[Wulf Vengis]

I always felt the back banner was dumb as all get out until they basically passed thenpiggy. Now i miss seeing them and actually try to use them when appropriate with certain units.

 

I always thought that in the fluff they probably collapse/retract into their base plate (the part that we glue onto the back pack).

Edited May 22, 2020 by Wulf Vengis

[Triszin]

I'd like to see banners come back, maybe even  a 6+ invuln save aura to go with them.

[Schlitzaf]

Do GW’s still sell there 20xx catalogues? I always liked them

[Brother Tyler]

I always thought that in the fluff they probably collapse/retract into their base plate (the part that we glue onto the back pack).

That's exactly how they work:

Back Banners

The display of back banners is a manifestation of many Chapters' conception of war. At no extra cost all Marines can be equipped with a telescopic aerial on their backpack, complete with integral Chapter or squad banner. These banners are used on ceremonial occasions, and are often displayed in battle to help identify Marine units. It is common practice for one member of each squad to display his banner, which acts as a focal point for the rest of the squad, and marking its progress on the battlefield. Volunteering to display the banner is considered an act of heroism and privileges eagerly sought.

 

An outstanding example of this has been passed down in a legend dating back to the 30th millennium. Several Marine detachments from different Chapters had been assembled for the final assault on the enemy positions, but victory was by no means assured; the battle, and consequently the outcome of the war was held in the balance. It was as if the gods of war were witholding [sic] their judgement, and were waiting to see which side was most worthy of victory. Then the divine inspiration of the Emperor of Humanity descended upon the commander of the detachment, and he gave the order; 'Let the banners be flown, for this is the moment of destiny.' Thereupon, in each and every unit along the entire battle line the banners were unfurled, and it was like a great wave to behold. Then the commander gave out a cry saying, 'The gods of war are with us,' and the entire line advanced with weapons firing. The victory was won.

 

(This article first appeared during a 1st edition issue of White Dwarf Magazine and was later re-printed in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium in 1989)

So the answer appears to be that the back banners are still there - they're just furled, the telescopic aerials retracted into the backpacks.

[Dracos]

While I think they have a place with themed armies aka Samurai style, on a more practical playing perspective. Kind of blows that the banner rising over the crest of the hill means your opponent has line of sight to your model 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Dracos

[Jacques Corbin]

While I think they have a place with themed armies aka Samurai style, on a more practical playing perspective. Kind of blows that the banner rising over the crest of the hill means your opponent has line of sight to your model

Did they change that in The Rules?! I remember a designer's note that clearly stayed that did not count for Line of Sight or for charge distances.

[Brother Tyler]

 

While I think they have a place with themed armies aka Samurai style, on a more practical playing perspective. Kind of blows that the banner rising over the crest of the hill means your opponent has line of sight to your model

Did they change that in The Rules?! I remember a designer's note that clearly stayed that did not count for Line of Sight or for charge distances.

 

The line of sight aspect of back banners was split off from this discussion into its own topic here.