BA and 9th Ed

[Djangomatic82]

From today's WC article on the Pariah Nexus, here's hoping this means the multipart Assault Intercessor kit will include Jump Packs.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Djangomatic82

[Orblivion]

Unfortunately I don't see any Primaris marines in that pic, so it's probably just an assault marine.

[Indefragable]

Yea not to burst any bubbles, but that art has been around for like 15 years. Didn't it come out when Necrons first launched? 

[The Unseen]

Giving them jump packs are about the only way I ever see them being better than assault bolter intercessors ever.

Unless they're substantially cheaper or chainswords get hella buffed.

[Panzer]

Assault Intercessors in Strategic Reserves will be good. Should be cheap enough to hold back until turn 3 where they start to become super scary too.

[Rhavien]

Giving them jump packs are about the only way I ever see them being better than assault bolter intercessors ever.

Unless they're substantially cheaper or chainswords get hella buffed.

I don't know. Assuming Astartes chainswords will get that sweet AP -1 I would prefer assault intercessors, especially as BA with the +1 to wound in cc. You get the outflank strat and I can see them charging midfield objectives. 4 attacks on the charge per dude or even 5 when we hit round 3 is scary as hell. And don't forget their pistol. That's another S4 AP -1 shot. Also the assault boltguns don't come for free.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

They -have- to do something to make Reivers viable. And they already have the ability to do it.

 

Just make grav-chutes count as jump packs. And make the cost be more, and the stupid batman grappling hooks can be something else, for cheaper or free.

 

I don't think they should give Assault intercessors jump packs, and allow them to remain troop options.

[Indefragable]

Ah Reivers.

 

We’ve discussed ye so much yet ye still sucketh so much.

 

At this point I think Reivers need to be overhauled and made into a dedicated “Other” unit. By that I mean focus on giving them disruptive abilities that no other units get and be less straightforward to use. Make them force multipliers rather than straightforward beatsticks.

[BluejayJunior]

I am hopeful that with the new morale changes that they will find a use. Especially if they change their ability to be a -1 for combat attrition.

[VanDutch]

I am hopeful that with the new morale changes that they will find a use. Especially if they change their ability to be a -1 for combat attrition.

I’m going to try out deep striking Dante, a squad of SG with death masks and a squad of reivers just for fun in one game.

[Spinsanity]

I don’t have the actual rules on DC Intercessors, but could anyone please confirm if the wording might actually mean the stratagem could target a unit of Assault Intercessors? (Assuming they do get a Intercessor keyword and not just Assault Intercessor) Edited June 28, 2020 by Spinsanity

[Arkhanist]

I don’t have the actual rules on DC Intercessors, but could anyone please confirm if the wording might actually mean the stratagem could target a unit of Assault Intercessors? (Assuming they do get a Intercessor keyword and not just Assault Intercessor)

Fraid it's not a strategem. They added a datasheet in Blood of Baal for a unit called Death Company Intercessors - standard intercessor loadout with only one guy able to take a melee weapon (no sgt), but with the Black Rage rule for the unit.

 

The datasheet may be altered by the launch FAQ to also allow swapping bolt rifles for chainswords, or we may need a new datasheet for death company assault intercessors - no way to know at this point. It's reasonable to assume death company intercessors with chainswords are coming eventually, but maybe not at launch.

[Drunken Angel]

The way I am reading 9th now its looking better for melee armies and shooting armies with a hard assault counter punch.  

Fly units can no longer fall back and shoot, thats good.

Two Strats stick out, sure only one use a turn but put the strait where it'll hurt on high T good invun units.

The "Desperate Breakout" to break tri-pointing costs 2 CP's and can only be used once per turn.  Plus you loose models on a D6 roll of 6. and need to clear the surrounding models. 

Any unit falling back is exposed to the  'Cut Them Down" strategy for 1 CP that inflicts mortal wounds on a D6 for every model in engagement range.

"Cut cut them down" is going to make high toughness, good invun units left on a few wounds think hard about breaking combat.  

It seems multiple MSU in assault will be a tough to shake.  A multi charge with even a DC, assault marines and some Sang Guard is going to bring the numbers of models in CC up and pile on the mortal wounds.

There does not seem to be any nerf to Blood Angels litanies giving plus 3" to consolidates and heroic intervention.

With careful model placement this litany in play will make Blood Angel units very hard to shake during fall back moves.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The way I am reading 9th now its looking better for melee armies and shooting armies with a hard assault counter punch.

Fly units can no longer fall back and shoot, thats good.

Two Strats stick out, sure only one use a turn but put the strait where it'll hurt on high T good invun units.

The "Desperate Breakout" to break tri-pointing costs 2 CP's and can only be used once per turn. Plus you loose models on a D6 roll of 6. and need to clear the surrounding models.

Any unit falling back is exposed to the 'Cut Them Down" strategy for 1 CP that inflicts mortal wounds on a D6 for every model in engagement range.

"Cut cut them down" is going to make high toughness, good invun units left on a few wounds think hard about breaking combat.

It seems multiple MSU in assault will be a tough to shake. A multi charge with even a DC, assault marines and some Sang Guard is going to bring the numbers of models in CC up and pile on the mortal wounds.

There does not seem to be any nerf to Blood Angels litanies giving plus 3" to consolidates and heroic intervention.

With careful model placement this litany in play will make Blood Angel units very hard to shake during fall back moves.

It really depends on how the meta shapes out.

 

You're going to be spending a lot of points and CP to get multiple MSU units.

 

And certain core units like SG or DC really benefit in larger numbers to make stratagems more effective. Fly + fall back and shoot wasn't the biggest problem. The biggest units that benefit from it, i.e. hovering tanks can now just shoot while in combat.

 

That's where the biggest changes are goinf to come in, Monstrous Creatures and Vehichles will take the place of a lot of infantry, and then be screened. Multi-charges are going to go down because of how that change has been made.

 

And you will just see pistols being more important and remembered to be used now, for the player locked in combat.

 

Melee armies have just been leveled to a a more centric balance with these changes, but as the game evolves so to will the lists.

[Indefragable]

Unit Coherency changes happening. 

 

Short version: 

Any model that is not within unit coherency at the end of the controlling player's Morale phase is removed from play. 

 

Discussion here. 

 

Pics from WarCom article:

Hidden Content

 

 

 

 

 

My first thoughts are of a calvary wedge charging into the enemy ranks, causing a break and thus  routing the foe. 

 

That seems fluffy and cinematic. Basically an emphasis on keeping your own dudes together while trying to spread your opponents' apart. This is in stark contrast to the formerly beloved/bemoaned Tri-Lock/wrapping technique. Now, rather than trying to encircle enemies there will be incentive to keep your guys together (like the aforementioned wedge) even if it means missing out on some attacks. 

 

I'm sure people will find a way to break this very soon and we'll have other sorts of exploits to look out for, but overall I think it's a fun change. Better? I dunno, will have to wait and see. Worse? I dunno, will have to wait and see. 

 

BA-specific thoughts:

Hidden Content

 

-this will play into charging from deep strike and other Hail Mary charges for sure. We will need to focus on being more tactical with which enemy models to kill in a scrap...tagging enemies may no longer cut it

 

-this especially applies for counter-charges: I think 8th has taught us to spread out and try to kill every last enemy possible in a melee, but if we spread out too much in our turn trying to kill every last one, then a counter-charge could be exponentially more effective against us. Something for us to stew over and plan. 

 

-somehow this makes larger units even less viable

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Indefragable

[Captain Caine 24th]

So, as to conga lines and new coherency, it's looking like trying to game the system is a very bad idea. Units out of coherency die instead of just moving into coherency in the movement phase. So, taking some casualties could put you out of coherence causing massive casualties. Yikes. Best keep death company at 5 or 9 I think, and close together.

 

Alright, well were aura buffs typically 17% improvement to hit? My thought is, chaplains lose their purpose somewhat. Characters really need to be a lot closer to benefit from the new character keyword as well.This might mean buying more men is better than relying on character buffs. But, characters may also contribute psychic powers/denial & better charges. I suppose if reserves allow jump packs to go into reserve without a CP penalty, then mass assaults out of deep strike (as opposed to conga lines straight up the board) are the order of the day.

 

First impression of those eradicators 24" melta, assault weapon, and possibly shooting twice is great.But, I don't think that type of armor can go in an impulsor to keep up with DC or SG jump pack units. I'm not sure where they fit in with BA. We have hammers and inferno pistols after all... Has the melta rule always said "discard one dice" or did it used to say "discard the lowest"?  

[Indefragable]

@Capt Caine 24th : previous wording was discard the lowest. Just checked on melta weapons in our 8th Ed digital codex. Like the updates to (other kids’....grumble grumble) Chapter Master aura wording, I prefer this wording as it gives you more control. Trying to think of a situation where you wouldn’t want the higher damage roll, but hey, now you have that option.

 

I’m confused about your aura buff/17% bit.

[Dracos]

quantum shielding

[Quixus]

As for the conga line as long as you have more than 5 models you cannot form a single line. At best you can do is something like this:

* * [add models as you see fit here] * *
*                                      * 

 

[Panzer]

 

As for the conga line as long as you have more than 5 models you cannot form a single line. At best you can do is something like this:

* * [add models as you see fit here] * *
*                                      * 

 

Do that and you'll lose most of the unit after the enemy killed just a single model since afterwards only one end is in coherency and at the end of the turn you have to remove all models that aren't in coherence so you have to start taking models away until the unit is back in coherency again (aka only 5 models left because then you don't need a second model within 2").

[Arkhanist]

Assuming you keep your models 2" apart, then the safest option (for 10 men) is two ranks (8 being a pair) i.e. 88888 as if you pull casualties from the ends at no point will you lose any to coherency. The next safest is o8o8o8o where you can lose the two solo end marines safely, but if you lose 3 you'll go down to e.g oo8o8 - that means you'll lose the leftmost marine to the coherency check (until you get down to 5 or less, then it doesn't matter)

 

If you keep your models closer together, then even oooooooooo is fine - if you keep the left end guy within 2" of the red guy, then he's in unit coherency of 2 models (blue and red). Templates aren't a thing any more, so you only need to spread out to max area covered/wrap around - which led to some fairly gamey outcomes such as slingshotting or the half-board conga line. Speaking of, this also greatly constrains the 'trailing conga' to keep inside an aura of a character that didn't charge.

 

You theoretically will also have the consolidate move to get your models back into coherency if casualties have put models at risk of dropping out, as it sounds like the coherency check happens at the end of the morale phase (for both sides) as it doesn't trigger 'another' morale test.

 

It should make units overall more compact, plus with the character escort rules in theory will make more gaps for deep striking reserves

 

Frankly it should look better on the table, and ends the deliberate split-the-conga-in-the-middle to hold two objectives along with other such cheese. You just need to keep an eye on where your models go when moving/charging (and measure precisely if facing 'that guy' and trying to spread out). If you keep your models in a closer formation, then you don't even need to worry about it.

 

AoS had has this for a while, and it hasn't caused the end of the world because they never got in the habit of keeping everyone as far apart as possible to minimise templates.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Arkhanist

[Panzer]

The next safest is 0808080 where you can lose the two solo end marines safely, but if you lose 3 you'll go down to e.g 00808 - that means you'll lose the leftmost marine to the coherency check (until you get down to 5 or less, then it doesn't matter)

 

Only if you remove them like that. If you only remove them from just one side you are perfectly fine.

[Arkhanist]

True and fair enough; I should have said 'lose 2 then 1' which is what I was thinking - one gets picked off by smite, f.e.x, rather than 'lose 3'. Cos if you lose 2 and take both from one side, you'll break a pair and lose the other man of the pair at that point. Basically, with o8o8o8o8o8 etc at 2" apart the worst you'll lose is 1 to coherency check, and potentially none. If you spread out the pairs, i.e. o8oo8oo8oo8 etc then you can potentially lose 2 to coherency at once - unless you take them from the middle pairs, which will save losses in the short term but risks the whole line getting rolled up.

 

I'll be going with double line (or blob!) so it's one micro-managing thing I don't have to consider, but then I'm no tournament player.

[Leonaides]

Having looked at the coherency rules, has anyone checked the armageddon base trays? I have a sneaking suspicion they may become more relevant in the main game for generic movement.

[Arkhanist]

Apocalypse coherency is 0.5", so the trays are setup for less than that, in a staggered formation to boot. Put two of the 5 man trays together and you'll basically have two offset lines, 88888. Should be a dirt easy way to ensure coherency.

 

Minimag trays or links should also work pretty well - the 'open' links are 1" apart IIRC, and the close formation trays also obviously work.