BA and 9th Ed

[Panzer]

Technically, the same happens with the Infiltrators/Incursors, where Infiltrators are Battleline, and Incursors are Close Support.

I would worry more with another bolter name to be remembered

I know that there are units that are sorted into weird FOC categories, however it'd be the first time to have a Battleline not be Troops.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Panzer

[Vermintide]

So I've been playing around with lists today, trying to fit in some of the Indomitus stuff to my 1000 and 1500 lists.

 

The points values are... Weird, though. Increasing points to allow more granularity and curb scale creep was a good thing IMO, but it's just sorta awkward where it's at right now, nothing seems to fit right. Either I end up a chunk of points under and there's nothing that can conveniently plug the gap, or I'm a handful of points over and there's nothing I can take off without leaving me back in the first situation. Annoyingly, even though the Marine half of Indomitus is exactly 1000 points on its own if you include everything, it's not a battle-forged detachment, or you have to use 2 Patrols and CP nerf yourself :D

 

The only way around it seems to be bumping up squads of intercessors to uneven numbers like 7, which is wrong.

[Arkhanist]

The only way around it seems to be bumping up squads of intercessors to uneven numbers like 7, which is wrong.

 

Previous battle casualties*. It's slightly less efficient for power levels, but eh. It's no worse fluffwise than always taking 5 man squads, rather than a 10 man and combat squadding them with 1 sgt per 2 squads.

 

 

* Or they're suddenly welcoming the Feculent One into their hearts and will be growing boils and tentacles shortly.

[Indefragable]

I personally like the idea of all points values going up to allow for granularity....

 

...but the way they've implemented it is odd, most especially with nearly every weapon option for each unit costing the same amount. In theory, this would be that each weapon option is perfectly balanced with each other....but we all know how often that happens. And as you say, @Vermintide, a side effect is the odd points values where you can't add a searchlight for +1pt or a storm bolter for +5pts to even things out. 

 

When I dabbled with Necrons in 8th a while back I had similar frustrations where I was often sitting at 1935pts for a 2000pt list or such because the few options didn't allow to add more bits and bobs and here and there. 

[Vermintide]

The older non-primaris units suffer the wors from it, because all their values seem to come out to unhelpfully jagged numbers like 113 or 108 now, and the traditional add-ons you'd make all leave them uneven too. Primaris stuff is largely in multiples of 5, so you can add on a power sword here and there to your sergeants to make up the last 10 to 20 points; but those are the only additions you really can make to Primaris. It's not like you can add on a combi-melta somewhere to soak up a bigger chunk of points. If you're just a few points over, you're out of luck and have to drop the whole unit.

 

With 2000 point lists I can comfortably fit all I need in, having a smaller unit of DC here or one less Hellblaster there and so on. But smaller scale lists seem to hurt more from the reduced leeway. This must be what they wanted all along- I'm never gonna get around to buildiing and painting when I'm sat tearing my hair out over a list in Battlescribe only being 1468 instead of 1500 :D

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I had a thought today. The last two SM dexes have had a Chapter Master stratagem allowing you to upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master. As far as I can tell, this can be used to upgrade Captains from any chapter, including Ultras and other chapter with a named Chapter Master, the only restriction being that you can't have more than one, including said named Chapter Master. We may very well be able to create our own Chapter Master that isn't Dante, and while this would be unfluffy, it could mean people can have a Chapter Master for their BA successor armies. DA could probably do the same. Thoughts?

[Rhavien]

I had a thought today. The last two SM dexes have had a Chapter Master stratagem allowing you to upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master. As far as I can tell, this can be used to upgrade Captains from any chapter, including Ultras and other chapter with a named Chapter Master, the only restriction being that you can't have more than one, including said named Chapter Master. We may very well be able to create our own Chapter Master that isn't Dante, and while this would be unfluffy, it could mean people can have a Chapter Master for their BA successor armies. DA could probably do the same. Thoughts?

I would hope so! If we get rolled into the main book I want to have their goodies too! Like the chief apothecary and high chaplain strats or however they are called.

[Indefragable]

I had a thought today. The last two SM dexes have had a Chapter Master stratagem allowing you to upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master. As far as I can tell, this can be used to upgrade Captains from any chapter, including Ultras and other chapter with a named Chapter Master, the only restriction being that you can't have more than one, including said named Chapter Master. We may very well be able to create our own Chapter Master that isn't Dante, and while this would be unfluffy, it could mean people can have a Chapter Master for their BA successor armies. DA could probably do the same. Thoughts?

 

 

 

I had a thought today. The last two SM dexes have had a Chapter Master stratagem allowing you to upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master. As far as I can tell, this can be used to upgrade Captains from any chapter, including Ultras and other chapter with a named Chapter Master, the only restriction being that you can't have more than one, including said named Chapter Master. We may very well be able to create our own Chapter Master that isn't Dante, and while this would be unfluffy, it could mean people can have a Chapter Master for their BA successor armies. DA could probably do the same. Thoughts?

I would hope so! If we get rolled into the main book I want to have their goodies too! Like the chief apothecary and high chaplain strats or however they are called.

 

 

That would be cool. They could simply say <Blood Angels> and <Flesh Tearers> are not allowed to use it. 

 

If the state of the storyline wasn't where it was, I would like them to say "Commander Dante/Gabriel Seth cannot be in the same army when using this Stratagem" so you could represent Chapter Masters of yesterday....but with Primaris et al, that kind of messes things up. 

 

************

Finally really digging into list building for 9th. Having trouble getting my signature High Speed Low Drag lists to fit, but I'm sure that will come with time. M

 

-initial thoughts are that vanguard units (Incursors + Eliminators specifically in my case) have good advantages due to being able to start on Obj early in the game and milk the cover bonuses for all they are worth

 

-Veritas Vitae back on the menu, since it's one of the few ways to get CP now? In 8th it was all about finagling detachments to get more (my long road to getting the precious pure BA Brigade), but now they are more precious, so any ability to get a few back over the game seems quite useful. 

 

-changes to vehicles make me eye dreadnoughts even more. I have enough to cause possible armor saturation and I think the Bouncer Dread (below) could be very useful this edition, with the ability to maneuver and shoot scary things while also being scary in melee even with only one arm. On a different note it seems like ~130pts is sweet spot for non-Contemp/Levi dreads this edition. 

 

Bouncer Dread build:

Hidden Content

Dreadnought

-Twin lascannon

-Dreadnought CCW w/ inbuilt heavy flamer

145pts

....swap heavy flamer for storm bolter to make it 133pts

Edited July 31, 2020 by Indefragable

[Vermintide]

Yeah I'm very glad I got a couple of box dreads a while back, they're cheap as chips and considering the shooting changes, there's no reason not to throw them into the fray where they belong. As it always should have been.

 

I'm thinking they'll be good even with the cheapest loadout of an assault cannon and CCW, and have 'em backing up squads of Intercessors. Feels very fluffy. I was also toying with another list combining las dreads with a las pred and some eradicators for a heavy ranged anti-tank firebase, to support Assault Intercessors, DC and Outriders as anti-infantry sweepers.

 

Judging by the intelligence battle reports have provided so far, it's that type of list that will do well in an edition with such a focus on objectives and holding ground. If you shoot an enemy off an objective, you still need to move something up to occupy it for yourself; using melee does both of those at once. People are saying Assault Intercessors look unimpressive on paper, but functionally I think they'll turn out to be very useful, for us at least.

[Loishy]

 We may very well be able to create our own Chapter Master that isn't Dante, and while this would be unfluffy, it could mean people can have a Chapter Master for their BA successor armies. DA could probably do the same. Thoughts?

 

 

Why ? You don't have to play a post indomitus cursade event when you play 40k. Dante only lived one or one and a half thousand years. Between 35k et 40k you have a lot other Blood Angels Chapter Master.

[SnorriSnorrison]

If they actually wanted to make things work out in the fluff, we'd get the Chapter Master stratagem but weren't allowed to use the Blood Angels keyword with any named character in the book when taking it. Dante is older than them, still alive and chapter master, so when playing BA, you couldn't use a different chapter master next to, say, Mephiston. Also, while this won't be happening, Primaris would also not be allowed with that logic since Dante was CM when they appeared.

 

I'm still skeptical that we will see access to all the goods that other chapters have atm.

[Indefragable]

Next thought as I tinker with lists:

 

Mephiston [Legends] makes a comeback? 25pt savings with 1 less W and A....

 

...could be a way to finagle him in while saving some points.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

RAW you can take Chapter Master Coolius Doodius to lead your Ultramarines even if they include Cassius, Tigurius and Primaris Marines, instead of Marneus Calgar. It's unfluffy as hell, but completely fine by way of the rules. There's plenty you can do by way of the rules that's unfluffy. We as players choose to follow the lore, but I wouldn't begrudge an opponent taking Chapter Master Genericus instead of Dante, even though I never would. I mean according to fluff, Tycho should NOT be allowed to be in the same army as Primaris. Edited August 1, 2020 by Captain Smashy Pants

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah I'm very glad I got a couple of box dreads a while back, they're cheap as chips and considering the shooting changes, there's no reason not to throw them into the fray where they belong. As it always should have been.

 

I'm thinking they'll be good even with the cheapest loadout of an assault cannon and CCW, and have 'em backing up squads of Intercessors. Feels very fluffy. I was also toying with another list combining las dreads with a las pred and some eradicators for a heavy ranged anti-tank firebase, to support Assault Intercessors, DC and Outriders as anti-infantry sweepers.

 

Judging by the intelligence battle reports have provided so far, it's that type of list that will do well in an edition with such a focus on objectives and holding ground. If you shoot an enemy off an objective, you still need to move something up to occupy it for yourself; using melee does both of those at once. People are saying Assault Intercessors look unimpressive on paper, but functionally I think they'll turn out to be very useful, for us at least.

Agreed on all points.

 

Currently in the process of chopping off heavy flamers and replacing with stormbolters on a couple of dreads (and jury rigging a librarian dread using Custodes spear parts)

 

I always suffer from indecision when only having two psychic powers. I think probably wings are needed, which means one left ... maybe unleash rage as it is an easier cast and could also be used on sanguinary guard... or just go for quickening? (Probably fund that quickening and unleash rage would leave him too immobile, even with bonus charge distance?)

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Ass cannon box dreads seem very good. Cool as hell too. Probably worth magnetizng the the HF/SB to future proof, as different weapons suit different editions of the game, what is no longer super efficient may be the hot sauce of tomorrow. Box dreads don't have a degrading statline, and would provide Intercessors with heavy weapon back up, something they lack otherwise and also pack a somewhat decent punch in CQC. Amore gunline army like DA would suit AC/ML or LC/ML, or even double LC Mortis, but for BA, I'd definitely go for the fist option.

[Indefragable]

“Ass cannon” makes me think of Beavis and Butthead. There’s gotta be a better abbreviation.

 

@dice4thedicegod It all depends on your role for your Libby. I think we all too often think in terms of units or models instead of roles. If your role is to buff, then Unleash Rage and/or Shield of Sanguinius. If it’s to wreck faces (which both Mephiston and Librarian Dreads excel at) then Quickening and Wings are almost a must. You could also pair Wings with a buff power since it’s such a marvelous support power that lets you get where you want.

 

If you’re going purely for buffs, I suggest you consider a jump pack librarian (or bike Libby). That way you don’t “waste” one of your precious powers on Wings.

[dice4thedicegod]

“Ass cannon” makes me think of Beavis and Butthead. There’s gotta be a better abbreviation.

 

@dice4thedicegod It all depends on your role for your Libby. I think we all too often think in terms of units or models instead of roles. If your role is to buff, then Unleash Rage and/or Shield of Sanguinius. If it’s to wreck faces (which both Mephiston and Librarian Dreads excel at) then Quickening and Wings are almost a must. You could also pair Wings with a buff power since it’s such a marvelous support power that lets you get where you want.

 

If you’re going purely for buffs, I suggest you consider a jump pack librarian (or bike Libby). That way you don’t “waste” one of your precious powers on Wings.

It just seems like (excluding bonus movement, which you prob don’t need if taking wings) that quickening is 58% chance of adding 2 attacks on average, whereas unleash rage is 1 attack but at 72% odds and can be used more widely.

 

I dunno... maybe just take both unleash rage and quickening , advance the first turn for 10+d6 move, keeping up with sang guard, then charge turn 2. No finesse, just punch!

[The Unseen]

Don't forget quickening gives you +3 to your charge distance

Can be a big deal sometimes.

Unleash rage is better on a generic libby with a jump pack or bike as a utility caster, as you don't need wings then, whereas the dread really wants the extra move to get stuck in.

 

Its a decent pick as mephistons 3rd power, that he can use either on another unit or himself if he doesnt need the extra move from wings for a turn.

 

A librarian dread that gets wings and quickening off gets to move 8", then fly 12", then charge 2d6+4", for an average 31" threat range, max of 32". (As you can't charge something more than 12" away, but your average roll is an 11)

 

Changing targets, what are people thinking about classic marine lists in 9th?

I'm still working on getting my head around the new points and missions, but I have noticed a few things

 

Infantry heavy flamers are now only 10 pts

Razorbacks didn't get hit too hard on pts, twin assault cannons actually went down, and getting to move and shoot without penalty, and obscuring terrain greatly increase the value of a 24" range dakka box.

So I'm wondering if tacticals in said dakka boxes would make a decent base for a list.

Fragile, but shouldn't have much trouble pushing troops off objectives turn 2 with that much ap-1 firepower.

 

If we do get access to venerable dreads with the new book, theyre definite winners right now, with pretty much any weapon besides a mm (which somehow got more expensive even as other weapons got cheaper?)

Twin-las, fist, sb or hf, threatening at range and in melee vs the plethora of vehicles people will probably be running now.

[dice4thedicegod]

I’m planning on keeping my dreadnoughts (death and normal) cheap. They’ll probably be bullet magnets as they lunge forwards - do keep them expendable distractions from the rest of the army and if they do make it in, profit!

[Vermintide]

Speaking of the aforementioned list-building woes, I've settled on what I feel like is a very nicely balanced list that has potential to perform nicely in 9th, and, most importantly, comes out at a round 2000 points.

 

HQ:

- Indomitus Captain [WL: Artisan of War, Icon of the Angel] (105 pts)
- Indomitus Lt (95pts)
- Sanguinary Priest [On foot, Bolt Pistol & Chainsword] (65 pts)

Troops:

- Assault Intercessors x5 (95pts)
- Assault Intercessors x5 (95pts)
- Intercessors x5 [bolt Rifles, Chainsword Sgt] (100pts)
- Intercessors x5 [bolt Rifles, Chainsword Sgt] (100pts)

Elites:

- Bladeguard Veterans x3 (105pts)
- Sanguinary Guard x9 [Angelus Boltgun & Encarmine Swords] (306pts)
- Dreadnought [Twin Las, CCW & SB] (133pts)
- Dreadnought [Twin Las, CCW & SB] (133pts)

Fast Attack:

- Outriders x3 (135pts)
- Outriders x3 (135pts)

Heavy Support:

- Eradicators x3 (120pts)
- Eradicators x3 (120pts)
- Predator [Twin Las, 2x HB, SB] (163pts)

Battalion, 2000pts.

 

Haven't put too much thought into it so I'm not posting it up as a list for serious critique, but I like the idea of those Bladeguard hitting at S6 and the potential to revive them on a 4+.

 

Using SG not only provides that nice even number I was searching for, but means nothing in this list has less than 2w, and gives a sneaky way to unofficially run "full Primaris" Blood Angels (which I want to do, considering I spent all that time converting those Reivers with jump packs and power swords...)

 

Fully expect my first serious game of the edition to go terribly and make me entirely rethink everything, though

[momerathe]

I've been wondering about bladeguard too, as the ability to actually survive for a turn seems really important in 9th. I think they need a transport though, unless you're using them as a pure counter-charge threat. (Fixed unit size of 3 is really awkward though, I hope that changes for the codex).

 

I've also just noticed that the Bladeguard ancient doesn't have the "Ancient" keyword. 

[durdle-durdle]

Played a couple 1k point games today. Key takeaways:

 

-outriders are absurd. With bolter discipline, they shoot like 6 bolt rifle intercessors and hit like 5 assault intercessors in combat for the price of about 6 intercessors while moving 2x as fast. Give the sgt the icon of the angel and a group of 3 x 3 out riders will blow through an entire flank on their own.

 

Redemptor dreadnought - at least at 1k points, nearly unkillable. With heavy weapons no longer taking a penalty, a dual gat build can gun down entire squads of lighter infantry while punching through incredibly heavy armor. With obscuring being a thing, careful positioning can keep it pretty safe from things like lascannons.

 

Indomitus captain - I gave him the veritas vitae and artisan of war trait. With 3 dam and the +1s his sword has, he destroyed everything he touched. Nearly everything was wounded on 2's or 3's, so he killed everything. Probably not as effective as a thunder hammer wielding smash captain, but much cheaper and still devastating. A jump pack would make him a must have, imo, but still great.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Played a couple 1k point games today. Key takeaways:

-outriders are absurd. With bolter discipline, they shoot like 6 bolt rifle intercessors and hit like 5 assault intercessors in combat for the price of about 6 intercessors while moving 2x as fast. Give the sgt the icon of the angel and a group of 3 x 3 out riders will blow through an entire flank on their own.

Unfortunately, we can’t give relics to Sergeants as for now. That might change in October though.

[Blindhamster]

interesting analysis on youtube comparing outriders to regular bikers. Regular bikers shooting is better for the points, regular bikers melee is worse but only barely. (the analysis did make the assumption regular bikes will have astartes chainswords too to be fair)

[SnorriSnorrison]

I’ve played two games against Custodes and lost, one of them decisively through a tactical error and then also bad luck for the rest of the game.

What’s really bugging me during list building is that characters are so hard to add to your list because of detachment restrictions, but BA do need those support characters to really shine. You’d want a Captain, at least one Librarian, a Chaplain and a Sanguinary Priest, which would force you to spend at least 2 valuable CP of the 12 in Strike force sized-games before adding Relics or an extra WL trait to said characters. Maybe it’s just me, but I feel that a lot of our units are not good without support from buffing auras. This change to how detachments are bought really shakes up the way BA used to play, and not for the better in my opinion. Back to the drawing board...