BA and 9th Ed

[Vermintide]

I’ve played two games against Custodes and lost, one of them decisively through a tactical error and then also bad luck for the rest of the game.

What’s really bugging me during list building is that characters are so hard to add to your list because of detachment restrictions, but BA do need those support characters to really shine. You’d want a Captain, at least one Librarian, a Chaplain and a Sanguinary Priest, which would force you to spend at least 2 valuable CP of the 12 in Strike force sized-games before adding Relics or an extra WL trait to said characters. Maybe it’s just me, but I feel that a lot of our units are not good without support from buffing auras. This change to how detachments are bought really shakes up the way BA used to play, and not for the better in my opinion. Back to the drawing board...

I feel like this is an age old enigma for BA. I tend to feel that if you save 100 points by not taking another HQ, you can afford more bodies of whatever unit you were going to buff with it, which a lot of the time does the same job anyway, if not better. It's just going to be more important than ever now to pick which HQ's you do take carefully, to make the most of the buffs you do get.

 

There's also the fact that HQs are going to be more vulnerable with Look Our Sir, which was being discussed in another thread around here somewhere. Having more characters on the board means you'll have a harder time keeping them safe.

[Blindhamster]

yeah we are, more than most marine chapters, pretty reliant on our heroes, they often provide quite important buffs. It will mean a change in approach, fewer "deathstars" more careful play etc. Still space for them but means picking if we want to do things like captain smash or focus on buffing. Also makes elite choice characters more worthwhile which is good IMO

[Indefragable]

There is a military concept known as High-Low Mix. Essentially, you take a high number of low(er) cost units and have them surround a low number of high cost units. The idea is to get eyeballs and presence in a large amount of space while storing up the decisive force in a concentrated amount which then overwhelms the enemy at the decisive point, as uncovered by the Low units being in as much area in possible.

 

My friend/frenemy/rival/person I’ve played 40k against the most in my life favors this strategy. Across everything from Dark Angels to Black Templar to 30k SoH to now Black Legion, his preferred technique is take Abaddon and a choice unit or two, and surround them by lines of Chaos Space Marines. There are variations of this where he will throw in some DS-ing Oblits or Termies on a side to pull attention away (or wreck face if they are ignored), but the central theme is that he has one core deathball he cares about and the rest are expendable units and anything they achieve is a bonus.

 

Where I am going with this, is that for our traditional style of play relying on multiple characters and buffs, we may need to scale back and focus on the single deathball with the rest of the army being simple and cheap. Taking a buffed SG ball OR buffed DC ball...not both like we could in precious editions.

 

One could say that Chess is a similar concept: having a single Queen you achieve victory with while all your other pieces are there to set up, block, or sacrifice for the Queen.

[momerathe]

yeah we are, more than most marine chapters, pretty reliant on our heroes, they often provide quite important buffs. It will mean a change in approach, fewer "deathstars" more careful play etc. Still space for them but means picking if we want to do things like captain smash or focus on buffing. Also makes elite choice characters more worthwhile which is good IMO

 

Hot take: The deathstar is dead in 9th. (Conversely, so are castles, which are sort of like deathstars for shooting)

 

Firstly, YOLO'ing into the enemy's deployment zone, multicharging, trapping units and consolidating from combat to combat is no longer a thing due to rules changes. Second you need board presence across the board and to be capturing/holding objectives. In multiple places, in other words.

 

I still think there's a place for killy melee units - it's just that it's as a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. And you'll still have character buffs - but maybe just one at a time instead of three. Give axes to your SG so they're not as dependent on a priest; take a few more bodies rather than another character to get the volume of attacks you need.

 

@Indefragable - I think the issue here is that the Queen can't be everywhere at once. This wasn't as big a deal in 8th, but with the progressive objective based scoring in 9th I can see it being real easy to just not have time to catch up on VPs.

[Xenith]

There is a military concept known as High-Low Mix. Essentially, you take a high number of low(er) cost units and have them surround a low number of high cost units. 

 

Well, the concept of the Death Star has been around in 40k for a long long time. Harder to do now, possibly, as characters canot join units, but you can still have one massive threat to do the damage and a lot of other smaller units to score and distract. Any firepower that goes into these units protects your deathstar.  

 

BA are in a decent position that even these small units like MSU incursors can be a real threat in T3 if not removed. 

 

The goal is to buff up these deathstars so they can barely be targeted or wounded. I can't really think of much BA stuff that protects, most of our buffs are offensive, so the question becomes is the buffing unit worth the points, or are the points better invested in another beatstick. Ideally you want a support unit that can do both, like Mephiston, Captains, might chaplains etc. 

 

Something big and hard to move might be 5/6 Aggressors with boltstorm. Ancient with standard of sacrifice. Corbulo or Flesh tearer priest with Sorrow's genesis. Every time you kill an aggressor it shoots you once on average, then gets back up again next turn. The ball of death can move at 6+D6" per turn, at the cost of -1 to hit. 

 

I'm probably going to try and reduce the #characters in the army and test out other units instead. Instead of a smash captain at ~160pts, why not 5 vanvets all with storm shields and power fists, for example? Same wounds, more durable against multi damage, 2x the attacks on the charge, and 3x the attacks in T3 onwards. 

 

The alternative is a big unit that can buff itself, like warlord sanguinary guard. 

 

^^ As per above. I'd favour multiple units that are unreliant on buffs, in addition to some tough scoring (infiltrators/incursors in cover). Priest or chaplain can be wing of fire'd to wherever theyre needed. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Xenith

[momerathe]

Something big and hard to move might be 5/6 Aggressors with boltstorm. Ancient with standard of sacrifice. Corbulo or Flesh tearer priest with Sorrow's genesis. Every time you kill an aggressor it shoots you once on average, then gets back up again next turn. The ball of death can move at 6+D6" per turn, at the cost of -1 to hit.

I really like the sound of this. A threatening, tough-as-nails presence in the middle of the board, while your mobile melee elements (plural) take out key units and play the objective game.

[Indefragable]

Here's the list I've put together....first stab at 9th edition:

 

Hidden Content

 

Strike Force - 2000pts +12CP

Blood Angels Battalion -3CP

Armory of Baal x 2 -2CP

Death Visions of Sanguinius x 1 -1CP

Warlord in Detachment +3CP

= 9CP

 

HQ:

1.Captain

-Jump Pack

-Storm Shield

-Thunder Hammer

-Death Visions of Sanguinius -1CP

-Warlord: Gift of Foresight

-Relic: The Angel’s Wing

 

2. Chaplain

-Jump pack

-Power fist

-SIW: Icon of the Angel

 

3. Librarian Dreadnought

-melta gun

-Psychic: The Quickening

-Physic: Wings of Sanguinius

 

TROOPS:

Incursors x 5

-Haywire mine

 

Incursors x 5

-Haywire mine

 

Incursors x 5

-Haywire mine

 

ELITES:

1. Sanguinary Ancient

-Angelus boltgun

-Encarmine sword

-Relic: Standard of Sacrifice

 

2. Sanguinary Guard x 8

-Angelus boltgun x 8

-Power fist x 8

 

3. Death Company Dreadnought

-Blood Talons x 2

-Melta gun

-storm bolter

-Magna-grapple

 

4. Relic Contemptor Dreadnought

-Dreadnought CCW + storm bolter

-Twin lascannon

-Cyclone missile launcher

 

5. Vanguard Veterans x 5

-Jump Packs

-Chainsword + Storm shield x 4

-Sgt thunder hammer + inferno pistol

 

FAST ATTACK:

1. Scout Bike x 3

-Sgt Power Fist

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

1. Eliminators x 3

-Bolt sniper rifles

 

2. Eliminators x 3

-Bolt sniper rifles

 

3. Mortis Dreadnought

-Twin lascannon x 2

 

 

-keeping Angel's Wing out of familiarity and re-rolls, though depending on how 9th shakes out, may go Biomantic Sarcophagus on the Libby Dread instead

-my Incursors are modeled with the Haywires....so I'm kinda stuck with them there

-considering dropping the DC + Mortis Dreads and going 2x Lascannon+Fist Dreads, though that would probably put me over on Elites slots. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Indefragable

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

I’ve played two games against Custodes and lost, one of them decisively through a tactical error and then also bad luck for the rest of the game.

What’s really bugging me during list building is that characters are so hard to add to your list because of detachment restrictions, but BA do need those support characters to really shine. You’d want a Captain, at least one Librarian, a Chaplain and a Sanguinary Priest, which would force you to spend at least 2 valuable CP of the 12 in Strike force sized-games before adding Relics or an extra WL trait to said characters. Maybe it’s just me, but I feel that a lot of our units are not good without support from buffing auras. This change to how detachments are bought really shakes up the way BA used to play, and not for the better in my opinion. Back to the drawing board...

I feel like this is an age old enigma for BA. I tend to feel that if you save 100 points by not taking another HQ, you can afford more bodies of whatever unit you were going to buff with it, which a lot of the time does the same job anyway, if not better. It's just going to be more important than ever now to pick which HQ's you do take carefully, to make the most of the buffs you do get.

 

There's also the fact that HQs are going to be more vulnerable with Look Our Sir, which was being discussed in another thread around here somewhere. Having more characters on the board means you'll have a harder time keeping them safe.

Those are fair points. I must admit that I’ll miss fielding double-Librarians (JP/Dreadnought), Sang Priest and Captain in one army though, however that might be nostalgia.

 

I find it difficult to get a good mix of anti-infantry, anti-tank firepower and ObjSec into a list while having good close combat punch. The Ancients characters are both interesting with their respective unit counterparts, but I’m not sure about their point costs for the effects you get.

 

On another note, after a video from Auspex tactics, the Relic Contemptor looks pretty solid to broken. For now at least.

I’ve been eyeing that model for a long while...

[dice4thedicegod]

I gave up on range AT punch... just clear screens and charge!

[ThatOneMarshal]

The relic contemptor is looking pretty nice but I’m currently pretty hesitant due to the impending forgeworlds points FAQ.

 

Bring up aggressors in the ultramarines sub forum we are having a topic on off aggressors are good enough for the points or not. The idea currently is that they can deal the damage but they have trouble keeping up shots. But now that you are listing off all the benefits that we give them I might just have to dust them off and repaint them red! Make sure to throw in a shield for sanguinius in there while your at it.

 

List building has definetly been the most difficult part for me so far. Outside my guard I think my BA have been the most difficult to build around. We have so many great HQs to build around I’m wondering about just biting the bullet and going for a patrol detachment.

 

I’m also wondering if dual sanguinary guard are worth it currently over a sanguinary guard and death company mix. Considering how tight buffs are right now it definetly is a wonder how we’ll get everything together.

 

EDIT: also for any of you like myself who was having trouble adapting melee to 9th this guide from the art of war really helped me out: https://www.theartofwar40k.com/home/38zmasdydtjig6hc1yntuh79nopvme

 

Essentially you want to head to the midfield where the objectives are at and then hide and position for ambushes against the enemy.

Edited August 4, 2020 by ThatOneMarshal

[SnorriSnorrison]

I gave up on range AT punch... just clear screens and charge!

How’s that working out for you? I find that some threats we can’t *just* engage with close combat units head on. Even transports will give your opponent a way of staying out of reach. :(

[Xenith]

I'm kind of thinking that with it being harder to hide characters now, a drop pod unit or two of Firstborn will be useful for catching mis-positioned charcters and assassinating them. Something like 2x4 company vets with storm bolters or combi meltas.

 

Then again, 5 terms with cyclone dropping will put out a lot of shots and could do the job too. 5 RF stormbolters+2D3 frag shots will fo 4 wounds to T4/3+ on average, enough to kill a supporting librarian or something. 

[Drunken Angel]

I'm kind of thinking that with it being harder to hide characters now, a drop pod unit or two of Firstborn will be useful for catching mis-positioned charcters and assassinating them. Something like 2x4 company vets with storm bolters or combi meltas.

 

Then again, 5 terms with cyclone dropping will put out a lot of shots and could do the job too. 5 RF stormbolters+2D3 frag shots will fo 4 wounds to T4/3+ on average, enough to kill a supporting librarian or something. 

Agree DS Termies may be viable now and very hard to shift off an objective, staying around and getting on objectives are key now.

 

I usually run a Smash Captain, Astorath, and a Sang Ancient Warlord within a Sanguinary Guard squad.

I have run DC and Lemartes but had to drop the DC/Lemmy ball as they just couldn't hang around long enough.  

Now in 9th I find i'm burning too many strategies to get the HQ's positioned and protected.

Like others here I want those buffs,relics and special wargear but run out of HQ's. 

Transhuman can only be used once a turn and it goes into the SG.

I tried a Phobos captain sneaking around the front lines instead of Smashy, it didn't work he got ignored and the shooting units he buffed got removed.

I think our Smash Captain is still key but I won't be charging him in from DS now.  More than likely ill start him on the board to buff shooting early then UWOF to where he can smash things.  Im going to run 2 outrider squads up the board and may roll Smashy with them  to put a heavy assault punch into the mix.  

[Indefragable]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but I’m hearing via word-of-mouth that Multi-Meltas are going to be 24” S8 AP-4 D:D6, but Heavy 2 and D:D6+2 at half range or under.

 

If that applies to regular melta, that could make things interesting. <looks at inferno pistols>

[dice4thedicegod]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but I’m hearing via word-of-mouth that Multi-Meltas are going to be 24” S8 AP-4 D:D6, but Heavy 2 and D:D6+2 at half range or under.

 

If that applies to regular melta, that could make things interesting. <looks at inferno pistols>

That could make them worth the 25 points, it was seeming out of line before

[Indefragable]

Yea 2 shots at D6+2 each puts melta back into possible 1 shot territory. Ah, the glory days of maneuvering into the rear armor arc of a vehicle and unloading with melta...

[Drunken Angel]

Will a plethora of powerful melta nerf transports, dreads and tanks?  more than whats out there now?  

Eliminators, Eradicators ? 

Will this shift the game back towards infantry who tend to die quickly in the open ?  We are already seeing small units emerge as the preferred choice on table.

Strats generally affect a unit/model and only activate once a turn.

HQ buffs are generally auras so more suited to MSU's clustered within the aura.

Resilient Infantry may be the way to go?  Looking at you Sanguinary Guard, Terminators and Intercessors in cover.

And anything in Gravis armour 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Drunken Angel

[The Unseen]

Just remember, a big way people dealt with tanks in 8th was by tagging them in melee to reduce their damage. Now that doesn't work, your tagging unit just gets blown to bits if you aren't careful. So Melta being better is I think a fair tradeoff, you have to get REALLY close to make use of that rule. And Plasma is arguably still better thanks to range. But MM on non-infantry just became interesting for this first time in a very very long time.

[Xenith]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but I’m hearing via word-of-mouth that Multi-Meltas are going to be 24” S8 AP-4 D:D6, but Heavy 2 and D:D6+2 at half range or under.

 

 

 

. But MM on non-infantry just became interesting for this first time in a very very long time.

 

That change might be the first thing to make a multi melta on a dreadnought a viable choice in almost 20 years.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

 

 

Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but I’m hearing via word-of-mouth that Multi-Meltas are going to be 24” S8 AP-4 D:D6, but Heavy 2 and D:D6+2 at half range or under.

 

. But MM on non-infantry just became interesting for this first time in a very very long time.

That change might be the first thing to make a multi melta on a dreadnought a viable choice in almost 20 years.

Would be cool IIRC multi melts was the original loadout for BA dreadnoughts. You could take other weapons, but the MM is what came in the box and if you wanted a LC or Ass Cannon you had to order them through mail order. They had a huge book the size of a small telephone book that had pictures of components and a corresponding code, and then you'd either ring them up, or there was also an order form in the back you could use. That was pretty cool back in the day as you could but any component from any miniature, which was perfect for conversion work. Of course that was when everything was pewter, and they could never offer that service now that everything is plastic and on frames. Today's equivalent is sites like Bits and Kits and BitzBox

[Xenith]

 

mail order

 

Yea, I loved that service - if they didnt have it in stock they made a fresh part for you.Still, probably financially unviable today though. 

[Karhedron]

Yea 2 shots at D6+2 each puts melta back into possible 1 shot territory. Ah, the glory days of maneuvering into the rear armor arc of a vehicle and unloading with melta...

My squad of 3 MM Attack bikes suddenly looks interesting again. With twice the shots and no more -1 to Hit when they move, that is 267% increase in firepower between 8th and 9th. The +2 damage within half range is just gravy.

 

My hunch is that this rule may be specific to Multi-meltas. We know that melta-rifles get the classic melta rule. Also melta guns went down in 9th whereas MMs went up, I suspect this is why.

[Arkhanist]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but I’m hearing via word-of-mouth that Multi-Meltas are going to be 24” S8 AP-4 D:D6, but Heavy 2 and D:D6+2 at half range or under.

 

If that applies to regular melta, that could make things interesting. <looks at inferno pistols>

It comes from the leak of the datasheet for the go-kart primaris attack bike replacement (the ATV). As you say, making multimelta actually useful, along with not having the -1 to hit makes all sorts of MM vehicles interesting again - attack bikes, landspeeders, dreads, the new gladiator... If that, along with the new eradicator melta rifle also means improvements to inferno pistols too, woo!

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Arkhanist

[SnorriSnorrison]

Even though I’m fed up with all the SM releases and power-ups at the moment, I do find that change incredibly useful. 3 MM attack bikes are 165 points and dish out 6 Melta shots next to the bolt guns, which coupled with the new Melta-rule means they’ll do an excessive amount of damage. Nice. Very nice.

 

I hope GW doesn’t blow it and makes the new MM primaris-only

[Xenith]

 

Yea 2 shots at D6+2 each puts melta back into possible 1 shot territory. Ah, the glory days of maneuvering into the rear armor arc of a vehicle and unloading with melta...

My squad of 3 MM Attack bikes suddenly looks interesting again. With twice the shots and no more -1 to Hit when they move, 

 

 

That's just vehicles though, right, not bikers. Attack bikes will still hit on a 4+ when they move. 

 

Glad these changes are confirmed at last. Also interesting to see the onslaught go up to 8 shots. Poor chaos thought they had something unique in the chain cannons.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Xenith