BA and 9th Ed

[Indefragable]

i honestly wouldn't be surprised if Sanguinary guard end up in the terribad position and are left there, compared to wolves and dark angels, we've tended to be the chapter left to languish in mediocrity the most (in fact, we have tended to even compared to core marines more than those too).

 

Yea the cynical part of me can't help, but think that the tournament crowd played them out, what with bringing 21-30 of them in almost every list. 

 

I hope they get a bit of a re-work to be viable both in the big picture and from an internal balance perspective. 

[Quixus]

I hope so too, but as Isador Akios used to say "hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

[Indefragable]

I hope so too, but as Isador Akios used to say "hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

 

I think the issue is Honor Guard for Codex: SM. 

 

From one perspective, SG are "just" Honor Guard with Wings. Aka have always been in a weird place for most of the game. 

 

From another, they are one of--if not the most--iconic unit in the game, not just our book, and as such they rightfully deserve rules that fit their awesome reputation. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

The real difference from Honour Guard to Sanguinary Guard are the Jump packs and Heirs of Azkaellon, which make SG superior by any means. Unless something changes very drastically, I'd still take SG over HG (if we even get access to them) any day.

 

But, in my opinion, SG should be less of a "bring 10 - 30 dudes each list" type of unit. There's supposed to be 25 of them in the entire chapter, and that should be reflected in the rules. Instead of being 2-wound models, they should have 4 wounds at least, or be on Captain level as they're supposed to be heroes of the chapter. Instead of being buffed by characters, they should extend buffs to units around them as their golden might inspires the Blood Angels fighting in close proximity. Minimum size of 1, maximum of 5. 20-25 wounds with 2+ saves and then some ridiculous shenanigans to make them more durable. The Sanguinary Ancient should have 5-6 wounds and be an absolutely impressive fighter on top of carrying the chapter banner. Just some brainstorming. :)

 

This would free up the use of the actual Honour Guard units to guard our characters, which could have the Bodyguard rule and make our army roster that bit more complete.

 

On the other hand, a whole squad of our boys in gold sure does look pretty.

[Indefragable]

The real difference from Honour Guard to Sanguinary Guard are the Jump packs and Heirs of Azkaellon, which make SG superior by any means. Unless something changes very drastically, I'd still take SG over HG (if we even get access to them) any day.

 

But, in my opinion, SG should be less of a "bring 10 - 30 dudes each list" type of unit. There's supposed to be 25 of them in the entire chapter, and that should be reflected in the rules. Instead of being 2-wound models, they should have 4 wounds at least, or be on Captain level as they're supposed to be heroes of the chapter. Instead of being buffed by characters, they should extend buffs to units around them as their golden might inspires the Blood Angels fighting in close proximity. Minimum size of 1, maximum of 5. 20-25 wounds with 2+ saves and then some ridiculous shenanigans to make them more durable. The Sanguinary Ancient should have 5-6 wounds and be an absolutely impressive fighter on top of carrying the chapter banner. Just some brainstorming.

 

This would free up the use of the actual Honour Guard units to guard our characters, which could have the Bodyguard rule and make our army roster that bit more complete.

 

On the other hand, a whole squad of our boys in gold sure does look pretty.

 

You're preaching to the choir, brother. 

 

[Blindhamster]

to be fair, Sanguinary guard shouldn't be any more skilled than honour guard.

Lore wise honour guard are the defenders of the chapter master. Which is, lore wise, what Sanguinary guard were, in theory.

[Indefragable]

From 7th Ed Space Marine codex:

Hidden Content

​The Honor Guard are living exemplars of the ideals for which the Emperor intended the Place Marines to be forever known, and are armed with the most ancient and venerated relics of theChapter accordingly. They are amongst their Chapter most taciturn and women individuals in response, but also some of of its most ferocious and unyielding warriors in battle. Most Chapters have only a handful of these warrior-paragons, but it is a rare and terrible day indeed when they all fight as one. In battle, the Honor Guard commonly act as the Chapter Master's personal retinue, responsible for the safety of their commanders for hoisting aloft the Chapter banner, while the Chapter Champion challenges enemy leaders to glorious single combat in his lord's stead. 

 

From 7th Ed Blood Angels codex:

Hidden Content

​The Sanguinary Guard are the best their Chapter has to offer. Epitomizing the nobility and honor of the Blood Angels, these gold-armored warriors embody the legacy of Sagnuinnius as no others can. Indeed, the original Sanguinary Guard were the Primarch's own retinue, his faithful retainers and bodyguards through the horrors of the Horus Heresy. They were to die alongside their Primarch at the Heresy's end, all save Azkaellon, Sanguinius' herald. It is form this famous forebear that the Sanguinary Guard descend, and from him that they draw their traditional garb and weapons. Wielding power glaives and angelus blowguns, and resplendent in winged golden armor, the Sanguinary Guard are unstoppable warriors whose individual deeds are recorded as Chapter legend. 

 

Obviously there's a lot of similarities, but SG are distinct and have a defined legacy that goes back 10,000 years. Honor Guard in vanilla chapters may or may not have some history as guard units to their Primarchs back in the day, but that is not defined and the honor rolls, deeds, and names etc... have not made the translation. Honor Guard are more about protecting the Chapter Master and chapter Relics/Banners/beer fridge. Sanguinary Guard, while fulfilling similar duties, are distinct in that they have a roll of deeds and legends stretching back to the heresy, each member is a legendary warrior in his own right, and they are as much a self-sufficient battle formation all their own. 

 

On a further note, I would say that with Blood Angels' uncommon feature of particularly long life, the Sanguinary Guard--like a lot of BA Veteran units--would likely have an edge on most other chapters' cool kids if for no other reason than that they live longer and thus have seen more and thus got more xp from purple quests. But that's a bit tricky to demonstrate in crunch without going overboard. 

 

 

*7th Ed Codex entries used for comparison since Honor Guard aren't even in the 8th Ed Space Marine one. 

[Blindhamster]

I /am/ looking forward to our supplement, even though it probably will end up not being great (With how prevelant certain things for us were, i see the nerf hammer falling hard in a few areas), it'll be nice to hopefully get a bit of new lore, some new art and to see how our integration into the main codex has been handled.

I've a feeling death company intercessors may be winners here, I could totally see them getting a bit of a tweak and boost to become more useful, although without a transport their overall value will obviously remain questionable.

 

It'll be interesting to see which relics we had make the cut, similarly, what our psychic powers and strats look like at the end of this... And warlord traits, I'm a bit worried i'll lose artisian of war, I always liked that as a way to make my regular captains power sword not suck.

 

I wonder what it'll mean for Blood of Baal psychic awakening rules (particularly relics and strats) too, i thought those were meant to carry over...

Edited September 16, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Quixus]

It'll be interesting to see which relics we had make the cut, similarly, what our psychic powers and strats look like at the end of this... And warlord traits, I'm a bit worried i'll lose artisian of war, I always liked that as a way to make my regular captains power sword not suck.

Well the power sword gets S +1 now, still damage 1 though.

 

I know technically mauls aren't good at penetrating armour but it makes little sense that weapons historically used to defeat armored opponents are worse against them in 40K.

[Blindhamster]

i think its because when you put a power field onto something, the thinner edge of a sword will have an easier time getting through armour than the wide surface of a maul or mace.

non powered versions should be the other way around though, yeah

[Quixus]

i think its because when you put a power field onto something, the thinner edge of a sword will have an easier time getting through armour than the wide surface of a maul or mace.

I know non-powered versions have the same "issue" however penetration isn't all that makes a weapon dangerous for the creature in the armour. Even if the armor is not penetrated a significant impact on the armor can for example break bones or collapse lungs.

[Blindhamster]

 

i think its because when you put a power field onto something, the thinner edge of a sword will have an easier time getting through armour than the wide surface of a maul or mace.

I know non-powered versions have the same "issue" however penetration isn't all that makes a weapon dangerous for the creature in the armour. Even if the armor is not penetrated a significant impact on the armor can for example break bones or collapse lungs.

 

which is represented by the higher strength bonus! :)

[Majkhel]

I'm not that sure SG should be simply getting the bodyguard rule. They are not just honour guard - they are Chapter Master's honour guard. I do not see them shielding Company Captains for example (apart from the general self-sacrifice thing that characterises all sons of Sanguinius).
By the way, in the lore we have at least 2 bodyguard-type formations inside Blood Angels (and we can quite safely extend that to successors) - SG (or equivalent) for the Dante/Chapter Master, Erelim (or equivalent) for Astorath/Master of Sanctity.

[Blindhamster]

Honour Guard in regular marines ARE chapter master bodyguard, command squads are company captain bodyguard.

[Loishy]

 

But, in my opinion, SG should be less of a "bring 10 - 30 dudes each list" type of unit. There's supposed to be 25 of them in the entire chapter, and that should be reflected in the rules. Instead of being 2-wound models, they should have 4 wounds at least, or be on Captain level as they're supposed to be heroes of the chapter. Instead of being buffed by characters, they should extend buffs to units around them as their golden might inspires the Blood Angels fighting in close proximity. Minimum size of 1, maximum of 5. 20-25 wounds with 2+ saves and then some ridiculous shenanigans to make them more durable. The Sanguinary Ancient should have 5-6 wounds and be an absolutely impressive fighter on top of carrying the chapter banner. Just some brainstorming.

 

Warhammer 40k is a game were unit have stats with a limited scale. All subtil differences can't be represent by a bonus in Endurance, Wound, Attaque, etc... From my point of view they are not inof diffence between Honor guard and Sanguinary. The SG have already jump pack and characteristic weapons (Carmin Blade, Bolter), they don't need more.  

 

But I'm agreed, HG and SG haven't the right profil. They should be more like Vitrix guard. 2+WS 3W 3A (they aren't primaris). Minimum size 2-3 maximum 5 or 6. 

For me, they should be like Bladeguards ++ 

[Majkhel]

Honour Guard in regular marines ARE chapter master bodyguard, command squads are company captain bodyguard.

Right, I messed that up with Command Squads . I do remember however one viki page mention BA HG and BA SG separately at one point. Probably a mistake though.

[Blindhamster]

 

Honour Guard in regular marines ARE chapter master bodyguard, command squads are company captain bodyguard.

Right, I messed that up with Command Squads . I do remember however one viki page mention BA HG and BA SG separately at one point. Probably a mistake though.

 

We lost honour guard (which was a unique jump pack command squad we had back in 3rd-4th, at that time codex marines didn't have a unit called honour guard, interestingly) and gained Sanguinary guard instead.

[Jolemai]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/

 

Huge change.

[Majkhel]

First thought - another nail the coffin for the Smash Captain - not being able to re-roll his own 1's to hit is a solid nerf for a character with the -1-to-hit-wepon
Also no way we will now EVER overcharge Mephiston plasma pistol (unless he gets CORE   )
This also suggests a nerf to SM vehicle-based shooting overall as not all of them will get a CORE keyword.

I wonder if Wisdom of the Ancients will get that same CORE-applicable rule. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

Oh dang, that's huge! Interesting divide between core and troops. Terminators are core units, but not troops, so are bikes. That seems to limit some characters' auras to certain units in the codex (even though probably most primaris units will have the core keyword).

 

We're living in weird times when I'm actually not that mad about a nerf to Space Marines. I'm already feeling a bit dirty for having to use the C:SM book come October... :D

[Karhedron]

First thought - another nail the coffin for the Smash Captain - not being able to re-roll his own 1's to hit is a solid nerf for a character with the -1-to-hit-wepon

Seems like it. On the one hand, I will miss the guy and his heroics. On the other, I am always a bit dubious of auto-take units and this will help open up the now more limited HQ slots to more flexible options. The meta will shift as it always does.

[Quixus]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/

 

Huge change.

Fluff-wise I like the change, we'll have to see how it plays once the rules are out.

 

It seems (core) auras are limited to units with more than one model minimum. I like it. Putting lots of auras on a (big) unit of terminators instead of the the smash captain sounds like a much better and fluffier way to delete a big bad enemy unit.

[Indefragable]

Prediction: 

 

Our supplement gives us a WLT, Relic, Stratagem, or ability in some other way that allows a (Smash) Captain's aura to apply to himself or otherwise mimic a similar effect. 

 

BA are perhaps the hero-hammer faction and as such Smash Captains played an outsize role for us (for better and worse). Even in the Heresy days, Sanguinius himself acted as THE Smash Captain taking the Spear of Telesto to the face of (Imperator!) Titans to solo them down so that the rest of the force could focus on the rest of the enemies. The classic/Original Smash Captain Slamguinius combo of Angel's Wing + Stormshield + Thunder hammer + DVoS + Red Rampage + Only in Death was in some ways  a design space for us to represent our genesire's deeds and compete with shootier armies in a non-linear way. On a personal note, one of the most satisfying moments in all my 40k "career" was early 8th when I sent Smash Captain to take out 2x enemy Stormhawks and then solo a Land Raider as well. That felt epic just the way it should...

 

...that being said it does not need to be said that the above got abused to the point of arguably ruining the game. In fact, one could say it even held BA back since its effectiveness masked other weaknesses in our book and prevented any meaningful improvements since players' could just gripe about how good OG Smash Capt was. 

 

I would like to see the rest of the book shored up and improved in general so that Smashy isn't the crutch he sometimes felt like for us, but still have the ability to invest in one should we choose to have a bit of that epicness as part of our Faction's flavor compared to others. 

[Captain Caine 24th]

I think it's probably the right call. It was a point of leverage in the game, lots of weird units would get tremendous benefits. As to the impact of "CORE", I suppose if you were running 2-3 repulsor executioners wtih a captain and lieutenant (or other buff/bonus mechanism) that doesn't work anymore. GW continues to say it doesn't want players sitting back and shooting all game. It's probably also death to the heavy use of stormtalons or fire raptors around characters (I know this was popular last edition for a time with Guilliman until a points hike). I think imperial fists and iron hands get more of a negative here in that they rely on shooting.

 

As to BA specifically... I don't know. Having lots of heroes is our way, but this in addition to other changes such as coherency seems to discourage it. Hopefully this doesn't end up preventing charge bonuses in an unexpected way or something.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Maybe techmarines will confer a similar bonus to vehicles instead of "just" being the repair-boy. Would certainly make the model sell better.