BA and 9th Ed

[gkos]

I am very positive about this change, it makes total sense and note that it is being rolled out with the codex, some factions may be wishing that their codex comes out last now ;)

[Karhedron]

Maybe techmarines will confer a similar bonus to vehicles instead of "just" being the repair-boy. Would certainly make the model sell better.

Yeah but it's not like GW has a new Techmarine model coming out that they will want to shift.

 

Oh, wait a minute...

Edited September 16, 2020 by Karhedron

[Spagunk]

So I never used smash captains. But I rather liked having them available to help solve issues. I think thematically it make sense that a captain of prodigious power is allowed to sacrifice themselves "For the Emperor and Sanguinius" when under the effects of the black rage. Much like Tycho before them, they were allowed to die in Sanguinius' name rather than being interred into a dread.

 

That said, I feel like GW keeps missing the inherent problems with BA. Smash captains were made to plug a hole: the ability to take down a high value target quickly to help the main assault. But they only see/heard the lament of being on the receiving end, never the actual people playing the smash captain. They should have been asking BA players specifically why that was a popular unit and then address the problem. They could then nerf the smash captains after finding a solution. Instead they're just trying to treat the symptom. 

 

Honestly, if they want to kill smash captains they need to give us a "Half-Guilliman" option. G-man doesn't synergize with our chapter on his own well enough to just plug him in and do work. As such, we need something that makes it so we aren't taking smash captains all the time (I HIGHLY doubt it's this often but let's assume that's the case). Sanguinor is a perfect half-Guilliman option. Elevating Dante is also another (and more thematic) option. But they seem to be really against buffing old sculpts (outside of points) until a new model is made available.

 

If wishes were fishes...

[Karhedron]

I just hope Inceptors are CORE or the plasma version will be basically DOA (or at least dead shortly after arrival). I magnetised mine so I can switch to the bolter variant if necessary but it would be a shame.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Things are uncertain. We don't even know if Death Visions will still be a thing until our supplement drops.

[smileyjim]

I love this change. When you look at the game as a whole, more objective mid board oriented, less turns, coherency changes, less overwatch, terrain changes, scoring at the start of player turn and now less ubiquitous auras..

 

 

It looks like GW are trying to push the game into a place where flexibility is rewarded instead of ridiculous castles and edge camping shooty armies

[Indefragable]

There's definitely an evolution to the game.

 

7th Ed had the Death Star where you planted Independent Characters into a beefy squad to essentially give the character x # of ablative wounds and increase its damage output as well. They could be nigh-unkillable, or in the case of Necrons with their Decurion buffs and multiple characters, mathematically unkillable (in 6 game turns). 

 

8th say the Bubble arise, with all the auras from characters and the ways to layer them. It took some time for players used to the 7th Ed Death Stars to eventually break away from that mindset, or at least evolve the Death Star into the Death Bubble. 

 

9th is continuing that evolution, decreasing the applicability of auras. We'll have to see how it shakes out, but my guess is that auras are going to be much more specific. I.e. Lemartes is going to be only able to buff DC and/or perhaps the only way to buff DC. Someone asked about "Wisdom of the Ancients" on Dreadnoughts and I can see that as an intentional design feature where that is a creative way to get a wider-applying buff at the cost of a CP, but that would certainly incentivizing taking at least one Dreadnought in every list. 

 

First thoughts are that they want HQ's to commit to either buffing units or being beat sticks, but not both at the same time (even for Astartes factions). I'm thinking of Adepta Sororitas whose Cannoness (Capt equiv)  can take a Rod of Office which increases her aura to 9" or better weapons, but not both. Forces you to commit to a path. I wonder if we're going to see more of that. Or perhaps Phobos Capts can only buff other Phobos units, etc... 

[Hintzy]

I play against a lot of Knights/Chaos Knights in my area, so for me when deciding to put a Smash Captain in the list it always comes down to his ability to solo a Knight turn one.

 

Mathammer says a Smash Captain (DVoS, Rampage) with a 5dmg Thunder Hammer (new TH dmg buff plus Artisans) goes from doing apx 17 dmg to a Knight down to apx 14 after losing reroll ones to hit. So either way it dies with a fight twice. While it's a nerf for sure, it doesn't lose its ability to solo a Knight on turn one. So for me, it's still likely an auto-include at this point, until something else changes.

[keeblerartillery]

I think the changes also give some insight into things like the bladeguard ancient. What was seemingly a wasted model now makes a lot more sense. Ancients might be tied to the kind of unit they are now - with a more specific/stronger buff

[Brother Cruoris]

This just frees up the captain slot to add a phobos captain with quake bolts to give some key charges an extra boost to hit.

Or a librarian dread with artisan of war for that flat dmg 4.

Unless they change the size of bladeguard veterans so I can have a squad of 5 with an indomitus captain in an impulsor. =P

[Blindhamster]

I play against a lot of Knights/Chaos Knights in my area, so for me when deciding to put a Smash Captain in the list it always comes down to his ability to solo a Knight turn one.

 

Mathammer says a Smash Captain (DVoS, Rampage) with a 5dmg Thunder Hammer (new TH dmg buff plus Artisans) goes from doing apx 17 dmg to a Knight down to apx 14 after losing reroll ones to hit. So either way it dies with a fight twice. While it's a nerf for sure, it doesn't lose its ability to solo a Knight on turn one. So for me, it's still likely an auto-include at this point, until something else changes.

We sure fight twice will stay as it is? What if they make them be core only?

[Majkhel]

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. So far only Character Auras were mentioned to be affected. Stratagems' auras - we don't know. Fight Twice is a totally different thing not being an aura and additionally it has some variations across cedexes/armies. Changing one would have to take the other into consideration fro balance. 

[Blindhamster]

I reckon stuff like that will also be limited, they're crutches of the smash captain, so i'd bet on them going or at least being limited

[Charlo]

One of the best changes for 9th, IMO.

 

There was nothing more dissapointing than seeing someone like Trajhan Valoris babysit a pair of tanks and Dreads (or the marine/ chaos/ etc equivalent) to give them a 2+ re-rollable Ballistic Skill - while its fine in principal (he's giving them his targetting expertise!), he should really be leading the charge etc.

 

Characters now lead the troops!

 

Hopefully this means things like Tech Marines will be the vehicle buffers, like they were always meant to :)

[Hintzy]

 

So for me, it's still likely an auto-include at this point, until something else changes.

We sure fight twice will stay as it is? What if they make them be core only?

I'm certain there will be more changes, but we can only evaluate each morsel as they provide it, drip by drip.

[Pathstrider]

I think the changes also give some insight into things like the bladeguard ancient. What was seemingly a wasted model now makes a lot more sense. Ancients might be tied to the kind of unit they are now - with a more specific/stronger buff

I think that's a good call, though I suspect "core" is going to bring up oddities - for example, if Terminators are core why wouldn't bladeguard?

[Quixus]

They're new. It would be hilarious if all the new marines weren't core, but I don't think that would  be the line GW would draw.

[gkos]

Anyone had any thoughts about ancients and banners? I hope these are not rolled up with the same sort of Aura restrictions.

[smileyjim]

Anyone had any thoughts about ancients and banners? I hope these are not rolled up with the same sort of Aura restrictions.

I mean they made the Bladeguard ancient knowing they would be changing the auras so I fought that will change at all. Though perhaps the ancient might not get his own buff, which is fine.

 

I hope this is the kinda thing we have in store, normal/mini characters with much more targeted buffs for select units. It adds more options, do you spend the points on that buff or more of the unit itself?

[Pathstrider]

They're new. It would be hilarious if all the new marines weren't core, but I don't think that would  be the line GW would draw.

It depends where they were coming from I guess - they were probably aiming for everything not a character or vehicle but are doing it the keyword way rather than by exception.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I mean they made the Bladeguard ancient knowing they would be changing the auras so I fought that will change at all. Though perhaps the ancient might not get his own buff, which is fine.

 

 

No they did not. Model designs were done by a different team at least a year earlier.

 

Its possible the Bg Ancient won't keep his own datasheet in the codex

[Quixus]

 

They're new. It would be hilarious if all the new marines weren't core, but I don't think that would  be the line GW would draw.

It depends where they were coming from I guess - they were probably aiming for everything not a character or vehicle but are doing it the keyword way rather than by exception.

 

I sure hope so, but I fear that they employed some arbitrary line saying these units are too special or experienced. If Techpriests/-marines etc. buff vehicles and "officers" buff infantry etc. I am all for it.

 

Still I find it weird that captains and higher ups are supposed to be in the thick of it. I get that is the trope for space marines, but usually chain of command does not work that way AFAIK. They should be overseeing and guiding operations not be operators themselves.

[Indefragable]

Space Marines take their cue from Robert Heinlein’s Starship Troopers (the book, not the satirical movie). In it, there’s an entire section about how even Generals in the Mobile Infantry (basically Space Marines) fight on the front lines even though they end up as casualties just as often as anyone else. It might seem inefficient from a strategic standpoint, but it plays a crucial purpose, embodying the MI’s doctrine of “everybody fights, nobody quits.” The inspiration the rookie on his first drop gets knowing General Bigshot is one trenchline away dealing with the same crap is believed to outweigh any value of a General sitting in a command center has.

 

Combine that with the historical nature of Kings riding into battle with their personal entourage, being in the center line in order to lead and inspire (and show who had the biggest biceps) and you have the trope of SM commanders being in the thick of it.

 

It will be cool if IG and other forces get an emphasis on less beatstick builds for HQ’s in contrast.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Indefragable

[smileyjim]

 

 

 

I mean they made the Bladeguard ancient knowing they would be changing the auras so I fought that will change at all. Though perhaps the ancient might not get his own buff, which is fine.

 

 

No they did not. Model designs were done by a different team at least a year earlier.

 

Its possible the Bg Ancient won't keep his own datasheet in the codex

I didn't know that but you would think in a competent company they would be checking with the rules writers.... oh its GW. Never mind

[redshadow]

If we keep the hammer of Baal and the thunder hammer damage stat goes to D4 we can still do a knight a turn.