Medjugorje Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) close combat vs shooting If I look into 40k statcentre and hear from our WTC team - Templars are a shooting army. 5 Eradicators + 5 Plasmainceptors, both eqipped with Icon of Heinman and Crux Obisdian for being tanky and shoot everything to death. Thats exactly what I feared when I read that codex. SB suck, no real buff for melee with good stratagems and the the vows ( should not talk about that). Its time for a new Marine book to fix that mess. I am still not over this book. It's really weird then, how all the winning BT lists seem to have the core of their army be melee. Shooting support is in every single marine list regardless of chapter, and the relic bearers are mandatory for getting success out of the supplement. Putting them on the durable units that can't be covered by Aurelian shroud in that style of list is a no brainer. But that doesn't make the list a shooty list, and ignores the 150+ chainsword attacks it pumps out. You're also ignoring the list that's won a tournament and placed at others with basically all melee units outside 3, non-relic eradicators. Like what do you honestly think a Templar list should look like? A 100% melee list? And it should still be competitively viable? Unlike any other faction or subfaction in the game, as even crusher stampede takes hive guard. 3 Redemptors and 5 Eradicators are not Close combat. And a crusadersquad is not melee. Its just a counter and an objective holder. Of course no Marine army is just melee or just shooting. But If somebody plays 3 Eradicators, 2 Gladiators but also 2x5 Bladeguards and 2x5 Vanguards then it is a close combat army for me because the main part of the list is the close combat part. Edited January 19, 2022 by Medjugorje Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 A Crusader squad with pistols, powerfists and chainswords is melee as it gets. SkimaskMohawk 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 42 crusaders with all melee is melee. They don't take that many with Aurelian shroud and feel no pain and helbrecht to sit on objectives. Redemptors have more output on their melee than their shooting so I'm not sure how you're categorizing them with a unit with 0 melee output. They also feature in the list with 6 blade guard and 7 assault terminators. So that fits your own criteria for a close combat army. I get you've been sulking away from tournament results and lists so you can keep on claiming that new BT are bad and uncompetitive, but you can't just lie about how the lists are made and what the units are used for in them. Hidenheart, Tiger9gamer, BLACK BLΠFLY and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share Posted January 19, 2022 A Crusader squad with pistols, powerfists and chainswords is melee as it gets. okay - when I play just 6x5 Stormguardians but in the same time 2x5 fire dragons, 2x fireprisms and 10 windrider + 2x10 Avengers then i have a small close combat element in my list... but Redemptors and Eradicators do the work. They decide the game and the crusadersquad is the part of the list which could be replaced with other troop choices with small changes to their support lithanies etc.. but the main thing in the list is the shooting aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 I really don’t follow you… I didn’t provide a full list, just one squad that is obviously built for melee. Don’t put words in my mouth… thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirJyo Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Does anyone think crusader squads will be put into killteam eventually? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share Posted January 19, 2022 i am sure that we will see Neophytes in KT I really don’t follow you… I didn’t provide a full list, just one squad that is obviously built for melee. Don’t put words in my mouth… thanks. what I mean is that a crusadersquad or even 3 crusadersquads doesnt mean anything. Show me all lists which had success in tournaments. There is always a bigger part which does the work and that is mostly a shooty unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 I really don’t follow you… I didn’t provide a full list, just one squad that is obviously built for melee. Don’t put words in my mouth… thanks. what I mean is that a crusadersquad or even 3 crusadersquads doesnt mean anything. Show me all lists which had success in tournaments. There is always a bigger part which does the work and that is mostly a shooty unit. To be fair, what you're saying works both ways, and I think it's the exact same message people in general are saying here. Do the Crusaders do all the heavy lifting? No. Is there shooting in these lists? Yup, but it doesn't do the heavy lifting either. This is marines at its core. Here is a GT winning list from Da Boyz GT. Grimaldus, Helbrecht, Chappy on Bike, Judiciar (Aurillian shroud). 3 x 10 Crusdader Squads with chainswords. 5 VV with Hammer/Shields 3 Eradicators 4 Servitors 3 x Redemptors (Macroplasma). This is a great core. Lots of Obsec Crusaders, lots of board clogging. A few bully units for the center of the table. It is most definitely weighted towards CC as much as any Marine army should/could be. It doesn't play itself, but I think in the right hands this is a good list in many current metas (pre-Tau/Eldar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 It's almost as if one wants to be effective in all of the phases of the game to do well? SkimaskMohawk and Prot 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) what I mean is that a crusadersquad or even 3 crusadersquads doesnt mean anything. Show me all lists which had success in tournaments. There is always a bigger part which does the work and that is mostly a shooty unit. I like how you don't look at any lists yourself, claim things about builds and then tell others to provide full lists to back up their claims. Tim Royer's 1st place at New Years Knock Out. ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Black Templars) [108 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] +++ Configuration + Chapter Selection: Black Templars + Stratagems + Stratagem: Revered Repositories [-1CP] Strategem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics + HQ + High Marshal Helbrecht [8 PL, 160pts] Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts]: 1. Litany of Divine Protection, 4. Fires of Devotion, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Tannhauser’s Bones, Warlord, Wise Orator + Troops + Assault Intercessor Squad [11 PL, 134pts]: Fist of Balthus . 5x Assault Intercessor: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . Assault Intercessor Sgt: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power fist Crusader Squad [5 PL, 90pts] . 4x Initiate: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Boltgun Crusader Squad [5 PL, 90pts] . 4x Initiate: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Boltgun + Elites + Bladeguard Veteran Squad [11 PL, 230pts]: Icon of Heinmann . 5x Bladeguard Veteran: 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 5x Master-crafted power sword, 5x Storm Shield . Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Neo-volkite pistol, Sword of Judgement Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Crusader’s Helm Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon Terminator Assault Squad [19 PL, -1CP, 316pts]: The Crux Obsidian . Assault Terminator Sergeant: Stratagem: Champion of the Feast . . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Thunder hammer . 6x Assault Terminator w/THSS: 6x Storm shield, 6x Thunder hammer + Heavy Support + Eliminator Squad [5 PL, 75pts]: Bolt sniper rifle . Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle . 2x Eliminators: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak, 2x Frag & Krak grenades Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 145pts]: Melta rifle . Eradicator . Eradicator Sgt . Eradicator with MM: Multi-melta Whirlwind [7 PL, 135pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher ++ Total: [108 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++ The melee units carry the list. I use a very similar list; I can tell you that's what generates pressure, damage, and secures objectives. Tom Ogden's 4th place at Glass City ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Black Templars) [117 PL, 1,996pts, 9CP] ++ + Configuration + Chapter Selection: Black Templars + Stratagems + Strategem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics + HQ + Chaplain [5 PL, 80pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Boltgun, Litany of Hate, The Crusader’s Helm Chaplain Grimaldus [7 PL, 140pts]: 1. Litany of Divine Protection, 4. Fires of Devotion, Litany of Hate, Warlord High Marshal Helbrecht [8 PL, 160pts] + Troops + Primaris Crusader Squad [20 PL, 247pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword . 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . 8x Primaris Neophytes: 8x Frag & Krak grenades . Primaris Sword Brother: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword Primaris Crusader Squad [20 PL, 247pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword . 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . 8x Primaris Neophytes: 8x Frag & Krak grenades . Primaris Sword Brother: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword Primaris Crusader Squad [20 PL, 247pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword . 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . 8x Primaris Neophytes: 8x Frag & Krak grenades . Primaris Sword Brother: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword + Elites + Judiciar [5 PL, 85pts] Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 115pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Aurillian Shroud + Fast Attack + Attack Bike Squad [6 PL, 180pts] . Attack Bike: Multi-melta . Attack Bike: Multi-melta . Attack Bike: Multi-melta Attack Bike Squad [6 PL, 180pts] . Attack Bike: Multi-melta . Attack Bike: Multi-melta . Attack Bike: Multi-melta + Heavy Support + Eradicator Squad [15 PL, 315pts, -1CP]: Heavy melta rifle, The Crux Obsidian . 5x Eradicator: 5x Bolt pistol . Eradicator Sgt: Stratagem: Champion of the Feast ++ Total: [117 PL, 1,996pts, 9CP] ++ There's 42 crusaders and a ton of melta. That's the list, and stuff like grimaldus, aurelian shroud, a judiciar, and helbrecht all point towards the fact that the crusaders are meant to fight everything that isn't a good melta target. Tom Ogden's 1st place at Sunken City ++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Black Templars) [64 PL, 1,217pts, -1CP] +++ Configuration + Chapter Selection: Black Templars Detachment Command Cost + HQ + Chaplain Grimaldus [7 PL, 140pts]: 1. Litany of Divine Protection, 4. Fires of Devotion, Litany of Hate High Marshal Helbrecht [8 PL, 160pts] + Troops + Primaris Crusader Squad [20 PL, 247pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword . 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . 8x Primaris Neophytes: 8x Frag & Krak grenades . Primaris Sword Brother: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power axe + Elites + Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, The Aurillian Shroud, Warlord Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon + Fast Attack + Inceptor Squad [15 PL, 375pts, -1CP]: Plasma Exterminator x2, The Crux Obsidian . 5x Inceptor . Inceptor Sergeant: Champion of the Feast ++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Black Templars) [45 PL, 782pts, 9CP] ++ + Configuration + Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Chapter Selection: Black Templars Detachment Command Cost [-2CP] + Stratagems + Strategem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics + HQ + Primaris Chaplain [5 PL, 85pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Litany of Hate, The Crusader’s Helm + Troops + Primaris Crusader Squad [20 PL, 247pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword . 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . 8x Primaris Neophytes: 8x Frag & Krak grenades . Primaris Sword Brother: Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power axe + Fast Attack + Attack Bike Squad [6 PL, 180pts] . Attack Bike: Multi-melta . Attack Bike: Multi-melta . Attack Bike: Multi-melta + Heavy Support + Eradicator Squad [14 PL, 270pts]: Melta rifle . 5x Eradicator: 5x Bolt pistol . Eradicator Sgt ++ Total: [109 PL, 1,999pts, 8CP] ++ This is presumably the list you were referring to as a shooting one. I already think categorizing a redemptor with inceptors or eradicators is fallacious, but lets pretend it is. Double chaplain (featuring grimaldus), aurellian shroud, apothecary and helbrecht all appear to make the crusaders do stuff other than sit on objectives. It's not like the prayers can be specc'd for shooting and durability and them being melee indicates the strategy. Matt Root's 1st place at Renegade Open ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Black Templars) [102 PL, 7CP, 1,996pts] ++ + Configuration + Chapter Selection: Black Templars + Stratagems + Revered Repositories [-1CP] Strategem: Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics + HQ + High Marshal Helbrecht [8 PL, 160pts]: Attendant Thrall’s Fists, Feroicity, Frag & Krak grenades, Sword of the High Marshals Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts]: 1. Litany of Divine Protection, 4. Fires of Devotion, Absolver Bolt pistol, Ancient Breviary, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Litany of Hate, Twin Bolt rifle Primaris Chaplain on Bike [6 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: 3. Exhortation of Rage, Absolver Bolt pistol, Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Litany of Hate, Rites of War, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Tannhauser’s Bones, Twin Bolt rifle + Troops + Assault Intercessor Squad [6 PL, 115pts]: Fist of Balthus . . 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol . . Assault Intercessor Sgt: Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power fist Crusader Squad [5 PL, 90pts] . . 4x Initiate: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . . Sword Brother: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades Crusader Squad [5 PL, 90pts] . . 4x Initiate: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . . Sword Brother: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades + Elites + Bladeguard Veteran Squad [11 PL, 225pts]: Icon of Heinmann . . 5x Bladeguard Veteran: 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 5x Master-crafted power sword, 5x Storm Shield . . Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted power sword, Storm Shield, Sword of Judgement Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 115pts]: Absolver Bolt pistol, Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Frag & Krak grenades, Reductor Pistol, Selfless Healer, The Crusader’s Helm, Warlord Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist Terminator Assault Squad [19 PL, -1CP, 316pts]: The Crux Obsidian . . Assault Terminator Sergeant: Champion of the Feast . . . . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . . 6x Assault Terminator w/THSS: 6x Storm shield, 6x Thunder hammer + Fast Attack + Attack Bike Squad [3 PL, 75pts]: Holy Orb . . Attack Bike: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta, Twin boltgun Durr, double chaplain w/ melee prayers, helbrecht and apothecary must be there to support the redemptors' and attack bike's shooting. Ignore how much of an overwhelming melee threat is generated and supported. Kevin Roach's 1st place at Da Boyz ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Black Templars) [100 PL, 1,999pts, 9CP] ++ + Configuration + Chapter Selection: Black Templars + Stratagems + Revered Repositories [-1CP] Strategem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics + HQ + Chaplain Grimaldus [7 PL, 140pts]: 1. Litany of Divine Protection, 2. Psalm of the Remorseless Persecution, Artificer Crozius, 3x Cenobyte Servitors, Frag & Krak grenades, Litany of Hate, Plasma pistol High Marshal Helbrecht [8 PL, 160pts]: Attendant Thrall’s Fists, Ferocity, Frag & Krak grenades, Sword of the High Marshals Primaris Chaplain on Bike [6 PL, 115pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Absolver Bolt pistol, Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Iron Resolve, Litany of Hate, Tannhauser’s Bones, Twin Bolt rifle, Warlord + Troops + Primaris Crusader Squad [10 PL, 183pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword . 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . 4x Primaris Neophytes: 4x Frag & Krak grenades (bp and chainsword) . Primaris Sword Brother: Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword, Sword of Judgement Primaris Crusader Squad [10 PL, 188pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword . 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . 4x Primaris Neophytes: 4x Frag & Krak grenades (bp and chainsword) . Primaris Sword Brother: Frag & Krak grenades, Power sword, Pyre Pistol Primaris Crusader Squad [10 PL, 183pts]: Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword . 5x Primaris Initiate w/Chainsword & Heavy Bolt Pistol: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol . 4x Primaris Neophytes: 4x Frag & Krak grenades (bp and chainsword) . Primaris Sword Brother: Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Power sword + Elites + Judiciar [5 PL, 85pts]: Absolver Bolt pistol, Executioner Relic Blade, Frag & Krak grenades, The Aurillian Shroud Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Redemptor Fist Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servitor, 4x Servo-arm Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 210pts, -1CP]: Icon of Heinmann, Jump Pack . Vanguard Veteran: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Vanguard Veteran: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Vanguard Veteran: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Vanguard Veteran: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Champion of the Feast, Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield, Thunder hammer + Heavy Support + Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 150pts]: Heavy melta rifle . 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol . Eradicator Sgt: Bolt pistol ++ Total: [100 PL, 9CP, 1,999pts] ++ Same thing as last time. Honestly Medjugorje, if your take away from these lists is that they sit back, turtle and shoot their opponents to death, then it would explain your lack of enthusiasm for the melee potential of the supplement. Fundamentally misunderstanding how the lists work and play would be a much better explanation of your attitude than "I can't push into combat with one unit, and advance and charge another; this update sucks!". Edited January 19, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk Prot, Oxydo and dickyelsdon 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kraskor Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 It's almost as if one wants to be effective in all of the phases of the game to do well? Except the Psychic phase of course. Prot, Khornestar and Sword Brother Adelard 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 How does relic bearer work? eg- do I have to buy a PF for X and then spend an extra Y for fist of Balthus? The app isn't clear and my dex is out on loan to a buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 It's almost as if one wants to be effective in all of the phases of the game to do well? Except the Psychic phase of course. We're pretty effective in the enemy one to be fair. If you lean into the right stuff, you can do some damage back, and shrug off theirs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 We have an anti psychic phase though and it can be pretty strong if you wanna tailor for things like GK dreadknight spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Either elite infantries, mass bodies or dread heavy tactics has seen success in recent weeks. That showed the potential of the codex. BT is not the melee chapter, nor the shooting chapter. BT is the no.1 cherry-picking good stuff chapter now. If salamanders future book is powerful enough, they may seize the no.1 again, but now BT is no.1 on this strategy. Tiger9gamer 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kraskor Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 It's almost as if one wants to be effective in all of the phases of the game to do well? Except the Psychic phase of course. We're pretty effective in the enemy one to be fair. If you lean into the right stuff, you can do some damage back, and shrug off theirs! This is true. I was thinking about it recently actually: Grimaldus with Epitome of Piety, denying x2 per turn with +1. Light of the Emperor's grace: -1 to enemy tests Skull of Cacodominus: -1 to enemy tests, Perils on any double, -2 for a turn Reliquary of Gathalamor: -1 to enemy tests, failed tests equal D3 mortals on a 4+ Culexus Assassin: -2 to enemy tests and Denies (BUT not -2 to our denies as it requires a Psyker, Grimaldus is not a psyker!) And of course the strat to ignore on a 4+ So if you really leant hard into this it would mean -5 to enemy tests, -6 for one turn, mortal wounding failures on 4+, perils on any double, and two denies with a +1. Alternatively... take Witchseeker bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirJyo Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Hopefully those chapter approved leaks have something nice for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kraskor Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) Hopefully those chapter approved leaks have something nice for us. -15pts for Gladiators. The day will come when Eradicators lose shoot twice. I'm thinking then a triple Multi-Melta Valiant will be a very hot item for us. Edited January 20, 2022 by Brother Kraskor CastellanDeMolay 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 +10 pts for biker chappy :(now I really gotta shed all the power fists. dang it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Hopefully those chapter approved leaks have something nice for us. -15pts for Gladiators. The day will come when Eradicators lose shoot twice. I'm thinking then a triple Multi-Melta Valiant will be a very hot item for us. I think they have to be careful nerfing units that currently work. There's so few go to units with Marines right now, that this is why we see the same units so frequently. They need to BRING the other stuff UP. Not knock the few tried and true down. -15 pts for Gladiators. I used them for fun, very frequently in pairs with my UM, and they just aren't going to work at the top level. (You really need to blow an HQ on a Techpriest.) Too many things just one shot heavy pointed units. The only thing that makes them remotely plausible is the 5++ and that's about to be diminished in effect. BLACK BLΠFLY, MegaVolt87 and Khornestar 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 These changes are very cautious. None of the nerfs totally killed any unit, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Ya the bike chaplain is not unexpected, but hardly a deal breaker. You can drop a marine or two and be fine. The gladiator does seem to have an impressive amount of anti tank...that can't be buffed through normal methods, can't move through terrain and lacks core for things like push and obsec. If they had fly like repulsors used to, then they'd be a lot better. But it does feel like they don't want the marine stuff to turn into a new wave of units to buy just to be rendered useless by the rumoured 9.5 codex. Avoid what happened with the points adjustment going into 9th with aggressors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 Hopefully those chapter approved leaks have something nice for us. -15pts for Gladiators. The day will come when Eradicators lose shoot twice. I'm thinking then a triple Multi-Melta Valiant will be a very hot item for us. just 15 ??? they will still be crap if thats true. They need a point reduction to at least by 30 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kraskor Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Hopefully those chapter approved leaks have something nice for us. -15pts for Gladiators. The day will come when Eradicators lose shoot twice. I'm thinking then a triple Multi-Melta Valiant will be a very hot item for us. I think they have to be careful nerfing units that currently work. There's so few go to units with Marines right now, that this is why we see the same units so frequently. They need to BRING the other stuff UP. Not knock the few tried and true down. -15 pts for Gladiators. I used them for fun, very frequently in pairs with my UM, and they just aren't going to work at the top level. (You really need to blow an HQ on a Techpriest.) Too many things just one shot heavy pointed units. The only thing that makes them remotely plausible is the 5++ and that's about to be diminished in effect. They're bound to take shoot twice away from Eradicators and give it to the new models, cf. Aggressors. They need to sell models after all! I also think we are in quite a privileged position as Marine players - relatively speaking we have a lot of units that can work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 People are already taking attack bikes as an alternative to eradicators, I doubt they will jump to gladiators when the bikes are much better for their cost and more mobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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