One Space Marine Codex with Supplements Construct

[WrathOfTheLion]

The phrasing above implies that Games Workshop would be getting rid of the other Chapters (e.g., the Dark Angels and their Successors, the Blood Angels and their Successors, and the Space Wolves and their Successors). That seems highly unlikely to me. Rather, I could see GW normalizing the Adeptus Astartes into Codex: Space Marines and allowing a bit of diversity/distinction via supplements. In this, Codex: Dark Angels might become Codex Supplement: Dark Angels. Players of the Unforgiven Chapters would then have to have both Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Supplement: Dark Angels. In order for this to be done well, though, some material about the Chapters would have to be incorporated into Codex: Space Marines - so the Dark Angels and their Successors would have to be given an amount of coverage commensurate with other Chapters/Successors like the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. (the Ultramarines would still be the main focus, but the variations of other Legion lines would be shown). In addition, units unique to the other Chapters/codices would, hopefully, remain available via the supplements. So the Nephilim would be covered in the Dark Angels Supplement, the Death Company would be covered in the Blood Angels Supplement, the Fenrisian Wolves would be covered in the Space Wolves Supplement, etc. My concern would be in the Chapters retaining the flavor of their rules (e.g., Dark Angels as a supplement would still feel like Dark Angels as a codex). If GW removed all of the material in Codex: Dark Angels that was basically duplicated from Codex: Space Marines, how large would the book be compared to the other supplements for Codex: Space Marines? The primary advantage I can see with this is that any addition/update to Codex: Space Marines automatically cascades into related supplements, so there wouldn't be a need to ask if new unit X can be used by the Dark Angels. The definite downside would be increased cost for Dark Angels players, who would now need a supplement in addition to a codex. A possible (likely?) downside would be some loss of distinctiveness.

I think the main implication of becoming a supplement is that it shows GWs intention to not further develop them or make them unique. They would not then do any further unique Space Wolf kits, or Sanguinary Guard, or Ravenwing. They then become just paint on top of standard kits, or red UM as Gabriel Seth says. It would be a major blow to the distinctiveness of those armies. I would think GW would need to release unique Primaris kits for those three when their supplement was released if they wanted to convey that they weren't intending to remove their distinctiveness. But as of now, it seems like those factions as unique ranges with character ends with the firstborn.

 

+EDIT+

 

Note that this topic has been split from the NRBA discussion about the Warhammer Community faction focus article on the Dark Angels. There's no indicator that GW will be doing this, so it's not quite relevant there. Also, the concept applies across the spectrum of the Adeptus Astartes Chapters (with potential exceptions).

Edited July 8, 2020 by Brother Tyler
Edit note about split from other topic added.

[Dracos]

poppycock

 

If they went to the trouble of producing Supplements for Iron Hands and Raven Guard with accesory sprues to boot, then I'd say they will go that route and then some for the other three of the traditionally Big Four, DA will be just fine. 9e leaks show that while they are focused on filling out the Primaris line they are keeping an eye on the specialty units. They just can't do it right all in one go. Personally I expect to see 10e open with Russ and the Lion return.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Dracos

[Coolbeans]

@Brother Tyler do you think there should be any units that only the 6 currently in the main marine codex should get?

 

Currently on the chaos side, Thousand Sons and Death Guard each have their own legion specific units just like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves, but there are units in the base Chaos Space Marines codex that they intentionally left out of their codexes besides newer ones like the Disco Lord's. For example, Death Guard don't get bikes, raptors and jump pack stuff in their codex among other stuff from what I understand is based on the lore of the legion.

 

Would it be fair to say since Dark Angels and such get their own units that only they can use that the base marine codex should get a couple exclusive units as well?

[Wrath of Bruinen]

@Brother Tyler do you think there should be any units that only the 6 currently in the main marine codex should get?

 

Currently on the chaos side, Thousand Sons and Death Guard each have their own legion specific units just like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves, but there are units in the base Chaos Space Marines codex that they intentionally left out of their codexes besides newer ones like the Disco Lord's. For example, Death Guard don't get bikes, raptors and jump pack stuff in their codex among other stuff from what I understand is based on the lore of the legion.

 

Would it be fair to say since Dark Angels and such get their own units that only they can use that the base marine codex should get a couple exclusive units as well?

They do, although to a lesser degree. For example, Dark Angels can’t take sternguard and vanguard veterans because in their lore all the first company deploys in terminator armour (recently retconned to accomodate bladeguard though). Space wolves can’t take librarians but have their unique psykers instead. For a long time TFC and centurions were C:SM exclusives too. So there’s at least a precedent for it

[Arkhanist]

@Brother Tyler do you think there should be any units that only the 6 currently in the main marine codex should get?

 

Currently on the chaos side, Thousand Sons and Death Guard each have their own legion specific units just like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves, but there are units in the base Chaos Space Marines codex that they intentionally left out of their codexes besides newer ones like the Disco Lord's. For example, Death Guard don't get bikes, raptors and jump pack stuff in their codex among other stuff from what I understand is based on the lore of the legion.

 

Would it be fair to say since Dark Angels and such get their own units that only they can use that the base marine codex should get a couple exclusive units as well?

Blood Angels still can't take centurions or the thunderfire cannon, for another example.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Arkhanist

[Coolbeans]

I guess I should have clarified, I read Brother Tyler's post about the hypothetical situation where they roll the other 3 back into the main codex and are just supplements. The supplements would then add the access to the current unique units like deathwing knights but then they would also automatically have access to everything the "vanilla" factions would get because of the codex.

 

That was my concern if they did do that, it's only fair for each to have some exclusives.

[Master Sheol]

I guess I should have clarified, I read Brother Tyler's post about the hypothetical situation where they roll the other 3 back into the main codex and are just supplements. The supplements would then add the access to the current unique units like deathwing knights but then they would also automatically have access to everything the "vanilla" factions would get because of the codex.

 

That was my concern if they did do that, it's only fair for each to have some exclusives.

In third edition there was just one Codex SM and all other chapter were supplements

At the start of each army list there was a list of the units available to that chapter (for example BT had no devastator squad and no librarians) and then there was the list of the esclusive units

If they do the same they canzone tell you that DA don't have Stern guarda, Vanguard, and so on and then the give you a list of the DA esclusive datasheets

 

It would be simple

[Coolbeans]

Was the list of exclusive units in the main codex or in each supplement?

[Sky Potato]

I don’t think rolling the divergent chapters (BA, DA, SW, Death Watch) into the supplement format is a bad thing.

 

Its easy enough when the new codexes come to just put the bare minimum stuff in the “main” Space Marine codex - something EVERY Astartes chapter gets - basic squads, generic SM strategems, generic relics.

 

And then it’s simple to have every chapter with a supplement to add onto that - so DA don’t get Vanguard or Sternguard in their supplement but get their Wings, BA don’t get Centurions, but get DC, Sang Guard, Baal Preds etc. Chapter specific strategems and relics can go in the supplements.

 

This makes it easy to just tweak faction specific stuff through the codex, or to make new releases easier to manage by putting them in the generic SM “central” codex.

[Isual]

 

@Brother Tyler do you think there should be any units that only the 6 currently in the main marine codex should get?

 

Currently on the chaos side, Thousand Sons and Death Guard each have their own legion specific units just like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves, but there are units in the base Chaos Space Marines codex that they intentionally left out of their codexes besides newer ones like the Disco Lord's. For example, Death Guard don't get bikes, raptors and jump pack stuff in their codex among other stuff from what I understand is based on the lore of the legion.

 

Would it be fair to say since Dark Angels and such get their own units that only they can use that the base marine codex should get a couple exclusive units as well?

They do, although to a lesser degree. For example, Dark Angels can’t take sternguard and vanguard veterans because in their lore all the first company deploys in terminator armour (recently retconned to accomodate bladeguard though). Space wolves can’t take librarians but have their unique psykers instead. For a long time TFC and centurions were C:SM exclusives too. So there’s at least a precedent for it

When did the TFC and Centurions Situation change for DA? I am not aware WE can take them atm Edited July 8, 2020 by Isual

[Master Sheol]

Was the list of exclusive units in the main codex or in each supplement?

In the supplement

DA had the specific Terminator unit (with mixed weapons) but not the vanilla terminator units for example

And the BT had the Crusader squad, Assault and bike squads with different options but no access to librarians, scout squads, tactical squads, devastators and so on

 

In the End of 3rd edition the various Index Astartes articles on WD gave to all 1st founding chapters that had no supplement specific rules too

Edited July 8, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I don’t think rolling the divergent chapters (BA, DA, SW, Death Watch) into the supplement format is a bad thing.

 

Its easy enough when the new codexes come to just put the bare minimum stuff in the “main” Space Marine codex - something EVERY Astartes chapter gets - basic squads, generic SM strategems, generic relics.

 

And then it’s simple to have every chapter with a supplement to add onto that - so DA don’t get Vanguard or Sternguard in their supplement but get their Wings, BA don’t get Centurions, but get DC, Sang Guard, Baal Preds etc. Chapter specific strategems and relics can go in the supplements.

 

This makes it easy to just tweak faction specific stuff through the codex, or to make new releases easier to manage by putting them in the generic SM “central” codex.

Disclaimer: yes I'm a space wolves player however I say all of the following out of practicality not as a space wolves fan.

 

This likely works for dark angels and blood angels as their chapter specific units are more additional units than anything else. They trade a couple codex chapter units for access to some more thematic units. This could be addressed more easily in a supplement.

 

In space wolves, however, the change is much more widespread. Basically every Firstborn unit has a differ name and rules, for 1 example Greyhunters instead of tactical marines and greyhunters dont have access to the heavy weapons. Now sure primaris are all the same, but that is due to GW removing customization from everything and taking the (imho) lazy way out. However, the sheer amount of changes required to the codex via a supplement is so extreme and unwieldy that it's much easier to simply put space wolves in their own book.

 

Edit cuz auto correct

Edited July 8, 2020 by Rune Priest Jbickb

[Petitioner's City]

 

I guess I should have clarified, I read Brother Tyler's post about the hypothetical situation where they roll the other 3 back into the main codex and are just supplements. The supplements would then add the access to the current unique units like deathwing knights but then they would also automatically have access to everything the "vanilla" factions would get because of the codex.

 

That was my concern if they did do that, it's only fair for each to have some exclusives.

In third edition there was just one Codex SM and all other chapter were supplements

At the start of each army list there was a list of the units available to that chapter (for example BT had no devastator squad and no librarians) and then there was the list of the esclusive units

If they do the same they canzone tell you that DA don't have Stern guarda, Vanguard, and so on and then the give you a list of the DA esclusive datasheets

 

It would be simple

 

 

 

Was the list of exclusive units in the main codex or in each supplement?

 

 

 

Was the list of exclusive units in the main codex or in each supplement?

In the supplement

DA had the specific Terminator unit (with mixed weapons) but not the vanilla terminator units for example

And the BT had the Crusader squad, Assault and bike squads with different options but no access to librarians, scout squads, tactical squads, devastators and so on

 

In the End of 3rd edition the various Index Astartes articles on WD gave to all 1st founding chapters that had no supplement specific rules too

 

 

It was slightly different; for Codex Armageddon which included BT and Salamanders (as well as Steel Legion and the Cult of Speed) had the condensed list with most shared options identified at the start.

 

===] REDACTED [===

 

However, for Dark Angels and Blood Angels, each force organisation section of the list would notify matches, but there was quite strong divergence too - and it worked well in the supplement format:

 

===] REDACTED [===

 

 

I don’t think rolling the divergent chapters (BA, DA, SW, Death Watch) into the supplement format is a bad thing.

 

Its easy enough when the new codexes come to just put the bare minimum stuff in the “main” Space Marine codex - something EVERY Astartes chapter gets - basic squads, generic SM strategems, generic relics.

 

And then it’s simple to have every chapter with a supplement to add onto that - so DA don’t get Vanguard or Sternguard in their supplement but get their Wings, BA don’t get Centurions, but get DC, Sang Guard, Baal Preds etc. Chapter specific strategems and relics can go in the supplements.

 

This makes it easy to just tweak faction specific stuff through the codex, or to make new releases easier to manage by putting them in the generic SM “central” codex.

Disclaimer: yes I'm a space wolves player however I say all of the following out of practicality not as a space wolves fan.

 

This likely works for dark angels and blood angels as their chapter specific units are more additional units than anything else. They trade a couple codex chapter units for access to some more thematic units. This could be addressed more easily in a supplement.

 

In space wolves, however, the change is much more widespread. Basically every Firstborn unit has a differ name and rules, for 1 example Greyhunters instead of tactical marines and greyhunters dont have access to the heavy weapons. Now sure primaris are all the same, but that is due to GW removing customization from everything and taking the (imho) lazy way out. However, the sheer amount of changes required to the codex via a supplement is so extreme and unwieldy that it's much easier to simply put space wolves in their own book.

 

Edit cuz auto correct

 

 

That's silly; 3rd edition Codex Space Wolves worked fine just the same as Codex Dark Angels and Codex Blood Angels, with only a few more pages to accomodate all those 'Firstborn unit[s with] a differ[ent] name and rules':

 

===] REDACTED [===

 

Thus it is something which could work well, for Space Wolves as much as any chapter. My pet peeve is how bloated each Marine codex is - this is what I struggle with right now, and the old supplement system (or rather a relatively spartan army list) might be a good idea to relieve that bloat; however equally it is another book, which means more to carry or different files to flip through.But any of the current chapters would work with a supplement; it's other decisions that have to be made about whether that is a useful system or not, what is the core text(s), and how to utilise them. 

 

Another problem is cost, as Codex: BA, Codex: DA and Codex: SW were each an additional £8 on top of the £16 for Codex: Space Marines.

 

Presumably condensing into one book was a key impulse in 4th edition to save hobbyists from this - it was a great idea, but then 5th and 6th edition did much to bloat each non-codex chapter with unique units (Librarian Dreadnoughts, different flyers, different speeders, space wolves on wolves, etc) that to an extent added more divergence while also serving to justify this too.*

 

It is a good question if the studio will return to this, or if the 5th/6th edition possibly OTT approach of 'Wolf/frost/blood/etc X' will occur again. I think there could have been better world-building during this period, as 30K shows how with very little unit divergence you can genuinely create real differences across 18 macro-factions - less simplistic, more nuanced, more scalable to a massive galaxy. Imagine if Alan Bligh or Andy Hoare or John French (the main authors of Heresy, as well as many FFG and other FW books) had been in charge of the main studio during 5th and 6th edition... 

 

*The one exception to this is of course Black Templars, who have returned to the codex fold essentially and lost much of their unique 4th edition features.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Brother Tyler
Sorry folks, but we can't be posting scans of rules, even 3rd edition rules

[Coolbeans]

Well thanks for indulging my curiosity gentlemen.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

See I find you assertion that a supplement that rewrites the entire codex space marines to fit a new army (which is what the 3rd edition codex you displayed is doing and what would need to be done now) is the right way to go about it to be silly. I didn't say it couldn't be done, it just seems ridiculously bloated and inefficient. You would have to say use codex space marines, except dont take these X units as you have unique versions of those, then print ALOT of datasheets that are the unique versions. At that point why not put the remaining datasheets in what have you actually gained by not reprinting them. That's why I find your statement that the marine codex+supplement fits all armies silly, the supplement would be most of the way to the codex.

[Arkhanist]

The general consensus of the BA forum was that we'd prefer to be a codex supplement. We don't have that many unique variants; I think Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Baal pred and Furioso/Librarian dread (and special characters obvs) pretty much covers it, plus a handful of extra wargear options, mainly inferno pistol, hand flamers and heavy flamers (and how often do you see those!) The rest is just stratagems and relics etc, and there's a fair amount of overlap with codex marines there too. Certainly with Primaris we're no different to a normal codex chapter model wise; Death Company intercessors are just a paint scheme. In the index, excluding characters and stuff that is now legends, I think you could fit all the differences from vanilla onto about 6 pages.

 

Not having to wait for codex changes for wargear, new units, datasheet changes etc etc to be copy-pasted over into the BA codex (which sometimes takes months) would definitely be worth the trade off of losing a bit of fluff by being a supplement IMO. The days of BA being far more jump-pack heavy than a conventional chapter can take are long gone.

 

Dark Angels are in a similar boat I think, but as long as firstborn marines are still a thing, I agree Space Wolves are divergent enough to warrant a separate codex.

[Doctor Perils]

What would you need to change for the captain/wolf lord, lieutenant/wolf guard leader, librarian/rune priest and techmarine/iron priest apart from a few bits of wargear and especially wargear that isn't in the space wolves wargear list?

 

This isn't sarcasm, I've not even glanced at the 8e Space wolves compared to 8.5e space marines, and it's a long time since I went through their 5e codex

 

EDIT:

I'd also quite like to see this supplements approach for Chaos Space Marines to be honest - and that would include the cult legions like KSons and DG; perhaps a single one for traitor chapters from Vigilus 2 and for Bile's cronies? As things stand, despite being a mingled mess of disparate factions in the fluff, they seem more uniform the codex marines at this point?

[War Angel]

See I find you assertion that a supplement that rewrites the entire codex space marines to fit a new army (which is what the 3rd edition codex you displayed is doing and what would need to be done now) is the right way to go about it to be silly. I didn't say it couldn't be done, it just seems ridiculously bloated and inefficient. You would have to say use codex space marines, except dont take these X units as you have unique versions of those, then print ALOT of datasheets that are the unique versions. At that point why not put the remaining datasheets in what have you actually gained by not reprinting them. That's why I find your statement that the marine codex+supplement fits all armies silly, the supplement would be most of the way to the codex.

None of the Primaris range has this issue though, and the new release already has at least 12 new models....

[WrathOfTheLion]

The Primaris Master (Captain) datasheet for the Dark Angels has options the main codex does not from the new kit, so there is precedence for different options amongst primaris. The Primaris Lieutenant datasheet is also different, allowing for a plasma pistol.

As for evidence that GW may integrate them into the main space marine codex - The main rulebook does not have pages anymore for Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels, unlike the 8E rulebook. A more cynical mind might think they purposefully withheld rules for doctrines, etc. to try to make people want the transition.

Edited July 8, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Brother Tyler]

I didn't expect my reply to spawn an off-topic debate (though I should have). I've split this discussion from the Dark Angels faction focus discussion.

 

@Brother Tyler do you think there should be any units that only the 6 currently in the main marine codex should get?

I look at it from the opposite perspective - there are some Chapters that might not include some units that are common to other Chapters. A ready example here is how the Black Templars don't have Librarians. In addition, there are some Chapters that have distinctive variations on common units, replacing the common version with their own. A ready example of this is the Dark Angels replacing the standard Terminator squads with their Deathwing Terminator squads.

 

One potential advantage I just considered is that it would give players a better range of options for figuring out exactly which set of rules they want to use. Currently, Codex: Space Marines includes basic rules for each of the Chapters it covers, with the codex supplements expanding on those rules and giving the truly distinctive elements. If the other Chapters were to be rolled into Codex: Space Marines (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves), players could play with the watered down version of their rules to get a feel for the Chapter. If they later decide to play, say, the Dark Angels, they could buy the codex supplement to get the full rules. So there's a potential cost savings to the consumer. The obvious counter to this is that you still need two books, whether hard copy or digital, to play any Chapter's full version. As it stands right now, though, players don't need the codex supplement to collect an Imperial Fists army - they can simply use Codex: Space Marines. So I guess there's a potential cost savings there, too, for those that are satisfied with the less sexy version of their Chapter's rules.

 

If we look at current costs, the codex is $40 for hardback or $35 for digital, and the codex supplements are $30 each for hardback or $17 each for digital. If GW were to switch to the codex supplement model for all Chapters, there would be a front end increase in cost to the consumer if they want the full rules for their Chapter (though they could use a watered down version for the current price - that's probably not satisfactory to most, however). A cost savings is realized, however, for hobbyists that collect multiple Space Marine Chapters. You would have to play four or more Chapters to realize this cost savings if you collect the print versions, but you would realize it with two codex supplements if you collect the digital versions.

 

Overall, either construct has its pros and cons, and these are all highly subjective and dependent upon individuals' circumstances and preferences. The one Chapter that I could see retaining its own codex is the Grey Knights. They are so distinctive that they need their own codex. Every other Chapter, including the Deathwatch could be converted into a codex supplement. I'm not necessarily saying that would be the right thing to do, or that GW plans on doing it, only that it could be done effectively.

 

An interesting intellectual exercise would be to try this out with each of the 8th edition codices - converting them into a codex supplement for Codex: Space Marines to see what they might look like. This might give us a better setting for evaluating the pros and cons of the concept.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

See I find you assertion that a supplement that rewrites the entire codex space marines to fit a new army (which is what the 3rd edition codex you displayed is doing and what would need to be done now) is the right way to go about it to be silly. I didn't say it couldn't be done, it just seems ridiculously bloated and inefficient. You would have to say use codex space marines, except dont take these X units as you have unique versions of those, then print ALOT of datasheets that are the unique versions. At that point why not put the remaining datasheets in what have you actually gained by not reprinting them. That's why I find your statement that the marine codex+supplement fits all armies silly, the supplement would be most of the way to the codex.

None of the Primaris range has this issue though, and the new release already has at least 12 new models....

True but GW states consistently that Firstborn are going nowhere so until they prove themselves liars that's only a portion of the available units

[Riddlesworth]

Dark Angel's and blood Angel's could easily be supplement books off the main codex. The pave saving from datasheets alone makes this worthwhile, not to mention different version of war gear dependant on codex release date.

 

Wolves is harder because they've wolfy wolfed the wolf

[Dracos]

They took it too far though. It would be a good opportunity to erase the Thunderwolf abominations. Consider that the “Back in my day” comment for the week :). Moving on. Edited July 8, 2020 by Dracos

[JimVandy85]

I think it would be a good thing for the divergent chapters to become a supplement. At least when new models are released then everyone would have access to them immediately and not have to wait for additional books to play them.

[Dracos]

Not to mention that when they add or take away particular rules that should apply to all Imperial Astartes (I for one hope to see a further divergence from Chaos and Custodes), it would force them to make sure it is balanced across all the Space Marine Chapters and everyone  is effected by the buffs/nerfs in one go. Would save a lot of angst about who and when are getting the buffs and let the wave of whimpering over the nerfs rise and fall more quickly so we can move on and adapt.