One Space Marine Codex with Supplements Construct

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I mean, do Rune Priests really need a whole datasheet to themselves, instead of just stating "Space Wolves call their Librarians Rune Priests. Use Librarians, but they also get the runic Inv Save, and get access to the Space Wolf psychic powers."

Rune priest has an existing model, so yes it should have its own entry in a SW suplement. So old marine libby would be one entry on a SW supplement ban list from the main dex for example. Would not need more than a page to tidy stuff like that up.

 

 

Blood Angel Terminator Librarians have their own model too, what's your point? Should we get an entry for Dark Angel Lieutenant too? Space Wolves have a model for Rune Priests, which for all intents and purposes is a Librarian with a 5+ Invulnerable Save.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

I mean, do Rune Priests really need a whole datasheet to themselves, instead of just stating "Space Wolves call their Librarians Rune Priests. Use Librarians, but they also get the runic Inv Save, and get access to the Space Wolf psychic powers."

 

Rune priest has an existing model, so yes it should have its own entry in a SW suplement. So old marine libby would be one entry on a SW supplement ban list from the main dex for example. Would not need more than a page to tidy stuff like that up.

 

Blood Angel Terminator Librarians have their own model too, what's your point? Should we get an entry for Dark Angel Lieutenant too? Space Wolves have a model for Rune Priests, which for all intents and purposes is a Librarian with a 5+ Invulnerable Save.

Rune Priest is a faction specific thing. DA Lt is just a Lt. If there was a specific DA DW and RW Lt, then they would be faction specific, so in the supplement.

[Dracos]

Be nice. It's hard to let go of thinking of yourself as Space Marine ++. All of the Big Four have had their specialness for so long (looking at you too, with the only living Primarch), it's going to be tough for a lot to be swallowed back up into the main codex.

 

and all snark aside I honestly get it. Raven Guard had cool stuff for all of six months, and 9e seems to have watered all the cool movement and cover shenanigans and giving them to every Faction. So while I'm still going to poke you now and then I really do feel for anyone bothered by potential feelings they have for the uniqueness of there Chapter

 

Best I can off is October isn't that far off and GW been doing a great job attempting for parity compared to past editions.

[Captain Caine 24th]

I think supplements are just one facet of several ongoing GW cycles to encourage model sales. Things expand and contract. Some editions get allies, some are single codex. Some edition rule sets are general and simple, some are very convoluted. Sometimes Marines get a lot of variety, and sometimes they are all very vanilla. Can't say where we are at for sure in the cycle as other cycles intersect with this. Also, the game always marches on. Mordians, elysians, and Praetorians probably aren't going to cycle back into popularity. Hard to say if we see legion of the damned again... Or if we get a new host of chapters such as the badab wars with various forgeworld bits and bobs. My feeling is that after marines there are lots of armies to update and new armies to reveal. Special marine units, I think, are far off. That is, just when you invest in a new army, your old favorites will come back.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Sorry, my apologies for seeming overly snarky. I'd just personally prefer to keep the unit repetition to a minimum, and "Librarian with a 5++ save" seems easy enough to just fold into the standard entry to me.

[MegaVolt87]

Be nice. It's hard to let go of thinking of yourself as Space Marine ++. All of the Big Four have had their specialness for so long (looking at you too, with the only living Primarch), it's going to be tough for a lot to be swallowed back up into the main codex.

 

and all snark aside I honestly get it. Raven Guard had cool stuff for all of six months, and 9e seems to have watered all the cool movement and cover shenanigans and giving them to every Faction. So while I'm still going to poke you now and then I really do feel for anyone bothered by potential feelings they have for the uniqueness of there Chapter

 

Best I can off is October isn't that far off and GW been doing a great job attempting for parity compared to past editions.

The supplement model is fine, you aren't really rolled into the main dex if your faction uniqes are in a seperate publication still and not sunsetted away to legends in comparison. Way too much overeacrion IMO.

[solarisqc]

My guest on Ban list and change to Datacheet for DA:

 

Give Inner circle to all Captain and change name to Master

Give Inner circle to all Librarian and give acces to Interomancy

 

Ban Terminator Squad

Ban Terminator Assault squad

Ban Relic terminator Squad

Ban Ancient in terminator armor

replace by Deathwing version

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike

Bike Squad

Attack bike squad

Primaris Outrider bike squad

Primaris Invader ATV

Land Speeders

3 new primaris speeder

Add Ravenwing in name, add Ravenwing Keyword, jinx rules, increase Power level by 1 and change size for speeder to 1-5

 

Ban Vanguard Veteran squad

Ban Sternguard Veteran squad

Ban Stormhawk Interceptor

Ban StormTalon Gunship

no replacement unit

 

All this and the rules for Inner circle, Deathwing and Ravenwing will fit in 1-2 page.

 

Unique DA entry:

Azreal

Belial

Sammael on Corvex

Sammael on Sableclaw

Ezekiel

Asmodai

Lazarus

Interogator Chaplain

Interogator Chaplain in Terminator Armor

Deathwing terminator Squad

Relic Deathwing terminator Squad

Deathwing Knight Squad

Deathwing Ancient

Deathwing Champion

Deathwing Apothecary

 

Ravenwing TalonMaster

Ravenwing Blacknight

Ravenwing Ancient

Ravenwing Champion

Ravenwing Apothecary

Ravenwing Darkshroud

Ravenwing LS Vengence

Ravenwing Dark Talon

Ravenwing Nephelim Jetfighter

 

It will take arround 15-20 page to replace the 50 page of Datasheet in codex DA 8e, and all datasheet in ROTD.

This change to supplement will give DA acces to Centurion and Thunderfire (we have acces in lore, but not in rules) and they don't have to lose anything.

 

Overall, i think the move to supplement is a realy good choice from GW

[solarisqc]

I think the Main codex + supplement is a realy nice move for GW and i will not be surprise if they do the same to Chaos.

 

Main chaos Codex have all basic chaos space marine unit + cult and Deamon,

Supplement for the 9 Legion and 1 for Deamon.

[Karhedron]

will be interesting to see if they do get a "ban list" i'm honestly not expecting it, each iteration of those books have added more of the core marine units, so i would be surprised if they go through effort of it, but i also wont be too bothered either way

Some sort of ban list seems likely. Will Space Wolves suddenly get access to Tactical Squads or Devastators in addition to Grey Hunters and Long Fangs? Both squads are sufficiently different in terms of loadout that trying to list how a Long Fang squad differs from a Devastator squad would get a bit awkward.

 

Would I like access to Thunderfire Cannons and Grav on my Long Fangs? Sure I would but I am not counting on getting everything. Then you run into the problem of the variant Chapters being Codex+1 which was one of the old complaints.

[Blindhamster]

all variant chapters are codex +1 now. Because all chapters have a supplement. Not all of them grant new units (but ultramarines does).

 

I'm not saying they definitely WONT have a ban list, it's totally possible and is a thing they did in 3e kinda, but these days the chapter specific units are often sidegrades anyway.

BA have access to everything except venerable dreads, ironclads, honour guard, thunderfires and centurions at this point I think, they probably won't get them, but i'm not sure that if they did, it would break the game - would we suddenly see a load of BA thunderfires and centurions on the table? probably not, but we'd see the odd player using them. Honour Guard would make sense, sanguinary guard and honour guard are totally different in roles and the term honour guard was a BA thing before it was a marine thing. The dreads are questionable in their usage too, there are already better options available for those roles too. Point i'm making is the concept of marines +1 isn't really the same anymore.

[Guest MistaGav]

Should be pretty simple to do a ban and keyword update in each supplement as they pretty much did the same thing back with the indexes when 8th started. Should be no more than a page or 2 explaining what units can and can't be taken by each chapter. Everything else after that which is unique gets new datasheets.

[Dracos]

Considering the punch in the face Thunderfires and Centurions received, I wouldn’t expect anyone to take them competitively anymore but I do agree Chapter +1 is closer to Chapter +2/3 right now. As example the variety of Special Characters alone are a boon yet totally measured given the current 1 Captain per Detachment limit rumored. That alone lifts them higher than Chapters like WS, IH and RG whose single characters all are a step down from Marneus, Mephiston, or Ragnar.

 

Sallies are obviously on the rise and that gives me hope that GW has looked ahead with 9e releases and that the rising tide will lift all boats to a similar level.

[Mandragola]

Considering the punch in the face Thunderfires and Centurions received, I wouldn’t expect anyone to take them competitively anymore but I do agree Chapter +1 is closer to Chapter +2/3 right now. As example the variety of Special Characters alone are a boon yet totally measured given the current 1 Captain per Detachment limit rumored. That alone lifts them higher than Chapters like WS, IH and RG whose single characters all are a step down from Marneus, Mephiston, or Ragnar.

 

Sallies are obviously on the rise and that gives me hope that GW has looked ahead with 9e releases and that the rising tide will lift all boats to a similar level.

I thought TFCs came through the points hike more or less ok. The thing that really did for them was just now losing character protection for the gunner, unless there's another unit nearby. It's just way too easy to take him out now. Ignore LoS shooting still looks like it will be massively valuable in 9th.

[Brother Tyler]

Discussion about how specific Chapters (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Deathwatch, and Space Wolves; and their Successors) might change should be taken up in the discussions already taking place in each of those forums. This discussion should focus on the general principles. Otherwise there is going to be a lot of confusion and duplication (e.g., was that idea posted in this discussion or in the topic in the Space Wolves forum?).

[Blindhamster]

bit confused about what to discuss here if not the fact that all chapters are in the same setup going forward? Which naturally leads to looking at the only ones set to have a supplement update in the near future?

 

to be clear, not being rude, just not sure what the point of the topic is outside of considering the ramifications for the chapters set to come into the new mold?

 

 

in relation to the comment about lots of special characters - ultramarines also have lots. Guilliman, Calgar, Cassius, Sicarius, Tigarius, Chronus and Telion. In fact compared to the others, they have an advantage there with almost all of them being legally able to be in a single army. They then also have 2 unique units iirc.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Considering the punch in the face Thunderfires and Centurions received, I wouldn’t expect anyone to take them competitively anymore but I do agree Chapter +1 is closer to Chapter +2/3 right now. As example the variety of Special Characters alone are a boon yet totally measured given the current 1 Captain per Detachment limit rumored. That alone lifts them higher than Chapters like WS, IH and RG whose single characters all are a step down from Marneus, Mephiston, or Ragnar.

 

Sallies are obviously on the rise and that gives me hope that GW has looked ahead with 9e releases and that the rising tide will lift all boats to a similar level.

I think the Khan is under rated as character, and shrike may have more value if they nerf the chapter master stratagem which seems likely.

[Mandragola]

 

Considering the punch in the face Thunderfires and Centurions received, I wouldn’t expect anyone to take them competitively anymore but I do agree Chapter +1 is closer to Chapter +2/3 right now. As example the variety of Special Characters alone are a boon yet totally measured given the current 1 Captain per Detachment limit rumored. That alone lifts them higher than Chapters like WS, IH and RG whose single characters all are a step down from Marneus, Mephiston, or Ragnar.

 

Sallies are obviously on the rise and that gives me hope that GW has looked ahead with 9e releases and that the rising tide will lift all boats to a similar level.

I think the Khan is under rated as character, and shrike may have more value if they nerf the chapter master stratagem which seems likely.

 

I wonder if they'll do something about Chapter Masters in the new codex, suited to the new edition. To me, the logical thing would be to make all CMs supreme commanders - not HQs - and make them cost points rather than CPs. After all, a CM should be a better commander and give you more CPs, not fewer of them.

 

Right now it's a clear advantage to those chapters who can buy a CM for points over those that can't. I'm very glad to have access to Pedro, for my Fists, for example. Not only does he give out full rerolls without costing CPs, he has a decent statline, a vaguely worthwhile gun and an awesome bubble of +1A. 

 

Of course, he's kind of the main good thing about Crimson Fists so I don't feel hugely guilty about it, but there's no doubt it's a buff, and one that's kind of randomly handed out to some chapters but not others.

[Spinsanity]

Ban lists are already a thing, with the Templars not being allowed Librarians, so why is anyone expecting any of the other non-compliant chapters to not have a sinilar (although more extensive) list of banned units?

[Blindhamster]

Not sure anyone expects it. I only said I dont necessarily think it's a forgone conclusion. Tbf I think wolves and Dark Angel's have a lot more unique units based on the counts earlier, so it does make some sense. But I could still also see them reducing some of the unique units to stratagem or point upgrades. Like sanguinary novitiates are basically apothecaries and we get them instead of apothecaries for example.

 

Who knows!

[Mandragola]

I think that, if there are ban lists at all, they’ll be shorter than the current “gaps” in the codex. I think things have previously been missed out of books because of space rather than any particular reason that such and such a chapter couldn’t have centurions, stormtalons or whatever.

 

The exception might be where a chapter has a direct replacement, like wolf guard terminators(among many other examples). It’ll be interesting to see how they decide to handle that. I wouldn’t be shocked if they decided to free up weapon options for all chapters, for stuff like plasma cannons. That’s kind of what they’ve done for Primaris - even though only the salamander upgrade sprue has a thunder hammer, any intercessor sergeant can have one. No idea if they’ll do that of course.

 

I wonder if they’ll make reivers viable. Third time’s the charm!

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

I mean, do Rune Priests really need a whole datasheet to themselves, instead of just stating "Space Wolves call their Librarians Rune Priests. Use Librarians, but they also get the runic Inv Save, and get access to the Space Wolf psychic powers."

 

Rune priest has an existing model, so yes it should have its own entry in a SW suplement. So old marine libby would be one entry on a SW supplement ban list from the main dex for example. Would not need more than a page to tidy stuff like that up.

Blood Angel Terminator Librarians have their own model too, what's your point? Should we get an entry for Dark Angel Lieutenant too? Space Wolves have a model for Rune Priests, which for all intents and purposes is a Librarian with a 5+ Invulnerable Save.

Rune Priest is a faction specific thing. DA Lt is just a Lt. If there was a specific DA DW and RW Lt, then they would be faction specific, so in the supplement.

Technically, DA Lt is a unique model with DA specific wargear options, so yes they probably do need their own data sheet.

[Mandragola]

 

 

 

 

I mean, do Rune Priests really need a whole datasheet to themselves, instead of just stating "Space Wolves call their Librarians Rune Priests. Use Librarians, but they also get the runic Inv Save, and get access to the Space Wolf psychic powers."

Rune priest has an existing model, so yes it should have its own entry in a SW suplement. So old marine libby would be one entry on a SW supplement ban list from the main dex for example. Would not need more than a page to tidy stuff like that up.

Blood Angel Terminator Librarians have their own model too, what's your point? Should we get an entry for Dark Angel Lieutenant too? Space Wolves have a model for Rune Priests, which for all intents and purposes is a Librarian with a 5+ Invulnerable Save.

Rune Priest is a faction specific thing. DA Lt is just a Lt. If there was a specific DA DW and RW Lt, then they would be faction specific, so in the supplement.

Technically, DA Lt is a unique model with DA specific wargear options, so yes they probably do need their own data sheet.

 

Or they just let all Lieutenants have plasma pistols, power axes (for the SW one) and so on.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, do Rune Priests really need a whole datasheet to themselves, instead of just stating "Space Wolves call their Librarians Rune Priests. Use Librarians, but they also get the runic Inv Save, and get access to the Space Wolf psychic powers."

Rune priest has an existing model, so yes it should have its own entry in a SW suplement. So old marine libby would be one entry on a SW supplement ban list from the main dex for example. Would not need more than a page to tidy stuff like that up.

Blood Angel Terminator Librarians have their own model too, what's your point? Should we get an entry for Dark Angel Lieutenant too? Space Wolves have a model for Rune Priests, which for all intents and purposes is a Librarian with a 5+ Invulnerable Save.

Rune Priest is a faction specific thing. DA Lt is just a Lt. If there was a specific DA DW and RW Lt, then they would be faction specific, so in the supplement.

Technically, DA Lt is a unique model with DA specific wargear options, so yes they probably do need their own data sheet.

 

Or they just let all Lieutenants have plasma pistols, power axes (for the SW one) and so on.

 

i hope so.

[Spinsanity]

 

 

Rune Priest is a faction specific thing. DA Lt is just a Lt. If there was a specific DA DW and RW Lt, then they would be faction specific, so in the supplement.

Technically, DA Lt is a unique model with DA specific wargear options, so yes they probably do need their own data sheet.

Or they just let all Lieutenants have plasma pistols, power axes (for the SW one) and so on.

I think you missed the point. There isn’t all that much more distinguished Rune Priests from Librarians than there is distinguishing a UM Lieutenant from a DA Lieutenant or a SW Lieutenant, so if “Rune Priest is a faction specific thing” then so is DA Lt, since they both (Rune Priest and DA Lt) have unique models...

[Blindhamster]

I imagine things like the lieutenant options will be handled via supplement wargear lists (seeing as all three chapters have distinct wargear)