One Space Marine Codex with Supplements Construct

[Lord_Caerolion]

I imagine things like the lieutenant options will be handled via supplement wargear lists (seeing as all three chapters have distinct wargear)

 

Which was my point, Rune Priests could easily be handled by a note in the Chapter Rules section alongside the Doctrines etc, stating "Space Wolf Rune Priests: use the datasheet of Librarians, but they also have a 5++ save, and can choose powers from the Tempestus discipline", or whatever it's called.

[Spinsanity]

 

 

I imagine things like the lieutenant options will be handled via supplement wargear lists (seeing as all three chapters have distinct wargear)

Which was my point, Rune Priests could easily be handled by a note in the Chapter Rules section alongside the Doctrines etc, stating "Space Wolf Rune Priests: use the datasheet of Librarians, but they also have a 5++ save, and can choose powers from the Tempestus discipline", or whatever it's called.

who knows, maybe GW will go about it the other way ‘round instead and offer all Librarians the option to take Artificer armour and, this time ‘round, consider runic armour as nothing pther than artificer (didn’t they use to be one and the same anyway?)

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, I think it was always its own special thing, from memory. It wasn't just "fancier armour", it offered protection against psychic attacks, etc. 

[Blindhamster]

rule wise, yes. it's always been a 2+ save for runic armour.

[TiguriusX]

Just as an FYI...space wolf rune priests have WS2 and are not a simple copy/paste of a librarian with different wargear and naming conventions Edited August 12, 2020 by TiguriusX

[Brother Tyler]

There are probably more than a few changes that might be implemented in formats other than full datasheets. For example, the Sanguinary Priest might have a rule [box] that identifies how it differs from the Apothecary, or the Rune Priest might have a rule [box] that identifies how it differs from the Librarian. In that way, a lot of the distinctiveness can be preserved while making it clear that these things are variations on a theme (and reducing pages devoted to rules to a minimum).

[WrathOfTheLion]

Regardless, even if they reprint datasheets for Ravenwing bikers, Sanguinary Priests, etc., the books will be smaller than the existing one.

More importantly I think from their point of view, Codex: DA, BA, etc. won't be a giant book like the existing C:SM one is. I've noticed in 8E vs 7E for example, they have been cutting some lore pages likely to handle the increase in datasheets. Perhaps in the 9E book, they will add back some of this.

 

So I don't think cutting back on unique/existing datasheets is their main goal, but instead to decrease the overall size of the book, or more importantly, not have it further increase. They also likely wish to simplify some of their FAQ/CA with it. They have flubbed the profiles of many things in their copy and paste errors, and this will go away as an issue now. Nitpicking various things like Sanguinary Priest/Rune Priest could possibly end up saving a page or two, but that very quickly has diminishing returns vs. the greater sweeping removals of things like all the phobos units, all the base primaris units and all the new stuff coming in.

Edited August 12, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Indefragable]

Someone who loves math can probably do a page count comparison:

 

A. Codex SM + Codex (BA/DA/SW/DW)

 

B. Codex SM + Supplement (BA/DA/SW/DW)

 

If B is less than A, then GW loves the environment. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

B has to be less than A, but the comparison is weird. What use would Codex SM + Codex BA be, etc.?

 

Just Codex BA would definitely be less than C:SM and Codex Supplement: BA. However this becomes less true when you have more than one, i.e. play BA and SW.

 

I think the system itself is fine - the HH uses it quite handily to have quite fluffy legions with unique units.

 

The biggest concern is whether GW will abridge the fluff or playstyle of those armies to accomplish this, not whether the concept is sound, as it definitely is.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

No, I think it was always its own special thing, from memory. It wasn't just "fancier armour", it offered protection against psychic attacks, etc. 

 

I think I remember this from old 5E SW codex lore. Similar to GK Aegis armor lore, the runes give warding against psychic attacks, but in-game I don't remember if they offered any rules benefits against psychic attacks.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Someone who loves math can probably do a page count comparison:

 

A. Codex SM + Codex (BA/DA/SW/DW)

 

B. Codex SM + Supplement (BA/DA/SW/DW)

 

If B is less than A, then GW loves the environment.

It wouldn't surprise me if the page counts go up dramatically along with a new price point for these ones. Then the next wave for the other first foundings will add more rules/units to reach that point eventually.

[Karhedron]

The Index at the start of 8th edition had roughly 20 pages of Blood Angel units to 80 pages of vanilla SM stuff. That suggests our supplement will be roughly 1/4 the size of the SM book (however large that turns out to be).

[Brother Tyler]

I think we're likely to see the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves matching the Ultramarines' 80-page codex supplement, while the Deathwatch will match the Imperial Fists' 64-page supplement. Unless GW plans on retiring kits (possible with some of the older kits, not likely with the newer ones), we're more likely to see things like the lore and Successors on the chopping block in favor of the rules. By "chopping block" I mean only that they'll be edited/reduced, not removed. The best way to get an idea of what each of the new codex supplements might look like is to take the existing 8th edition codex and remove everything that is duplicated from Codex: Space Marines. If the result is more than 80 pages, consider what might be edited to reduce page count. While I'm suggesting 80 pages, it's always possible that some of these codex supplements might be larger. That will only happen if absolutely necessary, however. It's always possible that we might see some additions to (some of) these codex supplements, such as if GW introduces rules for some successors (this is only likely, I think, for the Blood Angels and Dark Angels). I doubt that these additions will be more than 4 pages, however, and then only if GW can edit the other stuff to get the total to whatever their target page count is.

 

Personally, I'd like to see GW remove some of the things that look like "different for the sake of being different." I'm one of those that favors most Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes being variations on a theme. Despite their shift from codex to codex supplement, these Chapters aren't in danger of becoming nothing more than red/green/grey/black Space Marines, even if some of the things that they currently have are removed. Each will retain a level of distinctiveness through a combination of their lore, characters, unique units, and rules such as warlord traits, relics, stratagems, etc. Players will be able to make them look more or less distinctive according to their whims (which they can already do with the existing codices).

[WrathOfTheLion]

My guess is that the DA, etc. supplements will be larger than the UM one, but will be priced like a codex.

 

Successor rules will be there. I think the base rules for that is in Codex: Space Marines, and will thus be inherited. This will force them to make certain decisions, some of which we have already seen.

 

An example is the Bladeguard introduction into the Deathwing. In my opinion, the main purpose of this was to address how the Ultima Founding chapters wage war, as they will be reorganized into Unforgiven formations.

Edited August 16, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The Index at the start of 8th edition had roughly 20 pages of Blood Angel units to 80 pages of vanilla SM stuff. That suggests our supplement will be roughly 1/4 the size of the SM book (however large that turns out to be).

The white scar and raven guard supplements are 64 pages IIRC. They only have a page for data sheets. So if we add the 20 pages of data sheets/unique wargear tables, 1-2 pages for full points like psychic awakening, a couple of pages of crusade rules we're at around 90 pages. Adding unique unit descriptions and my bet is they'll be a little over a hundred pages.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[WrathOfTheLion]

Personally, I'd like to see GW remove some of the things that look like "different for the sake of being different." I'm one of those that favors most Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes being variations on a theme. Despite their shift from codex to codex supplement, these Chapters aren't in danger of becoming nothing more than red/green/grey/black Space Marines, even if some of the things that they currently have are removed. Each will retain a level of distinctiveness through a combination of their lore, characters, unique units, and rules such as warlord traits, relics, stratagems, etc. Players will be able to make them look more or less distinctive according to their whims (which they can already do with the existing codices).

The way I could see them achieving this is through a stronger focus on what their identity is.

 

For example, we can perform an exercise with the Dark Angels. There are 3 unique aspects and formations, a modification to the Reclusiarchy to include Interrogator-Chaplains, the Ravenwing as a second company, and the Deathwing as the first company. The modification to the Reclusiarchy is a simple thing to preserve, with added minor and named characters.

 

The Ravenwing and Deathwing follow a pattern, matching the other companies in structure. They contain: their squads, a set of company elites, support elements when applicable, their officers and a command squad.

 

For the Ravenwing, it would be:

* Base bikes and land speeders

* Black Knights (Elites)

* Talonmasters (Lieutenants) and Sammael/Ravenwing Master

* Ancient, Apothecary and Champion

 

Whatever the difference between those and what is available in the base codex would be the elements that they would need to preserve as unique datasheets/kits to maintain the unique formation.

 

For example, with the images of the contents of the next Space Marine codex, to field a fully Primaris Ravenwing, such as for an Ultima founding chapter, would have the following holes:

* Talonmaster and Ravenwing Master

* Company Veterans

* Command Squad

 

With Bladeguard as the Primaris base squads for a Primaris Deathwing, the holes would be:

* Company Veterans

* Apothecary and Champion

 

The veterans are the least necessary in my opinion and would be a nice to have, but through the exercise we can reason that the main hole for maintaining these formations would be the Ravenwing officers, notably the Talonmaster and Ravenwing Master. So if we were to see additions when the supplement comes out, those would be the most likely. Similar exercises could be performed with the Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

Edited August 16, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[bortbortbort]

I genuinely hope rolling DW into Codex:SM sidesteps all the awkwardness of keywording DW out of perks like upgraded chaplains etc. ...

 

I fully expect (and hope) to have both unique units and "not for you" omissions from the generic SM rooster... E.g. scouts

[ashc]

Another point that I am not sure whether it has been brought up or not is that by making all space marine armies work from the same core codex, it simplifies FAQs and the addition of new units to the space marine line.

 

No more seeing the next Vanguard-equivalent release and then waiting patiently to find out whether blood angels or any other supplement faction are allowed it - you get them.