New Space marine Codex and DA

[olsol]

Could there be potential to make a Ravenwing Apothecary a chief apothecary??? with the warlord trait he gets it seems really OP to stick him with some Ravenwing Black Knights

[Angel of Solitude]

I'd argue no. The exact line in the Codex is as follows:

 

"...you can upgrade any of the following ADEPTUS ASTARTES CHARACTER units in your army: CAPTAIN, CHAPLAIN, LIBRARIAN, TECHMARINE, APOTHECARY, ANCIENT, COMPANY CHAMPION". 

 

Emphasis added, because it specifically names the data sheet and not the keyword. RAVENWING APOTHECARY is the entry in the Index Astartes, and so in my mind is a different unit.

 

Interestingly though...the Deathwing Ancient is based on the ANCIENT data sheet, meaning that it can be upgraded to bring back the +1A banner. Huzzah!

[WrathOfTheLion]

Don't those also allow for their primaris equivalent?

 

Like Primaris Techmarine? So I think it is keyword scoped, and the Ravenwing Champion and Deathwing Champion do have the COMPANY CHAMPION keyword.

[Angel of Solitude]

Y'see, I don't think so. 

 

The principle right now is that for GW to include a datasheet for a unit, then there has to be a model for it. In the case of Space Marines, we have the following:

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marine-Command-Squad

 

There is no Primaris Command Squad available for sale, making me think that it's deliberately Firstborn only who can get the upgrade. Both Deathwing and Ravenwing have separate Command Squad boxes, hence why there is provision for one in our Index Astartes. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

But they mention the Primaris Techmarine as a perfect model to buy for this purpose in their own article. So I think this is how they view it as well.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/01/taking-command-of-your-chapter/

 

"With the stunning new Primaris Techmarine coming soon, you’ll have the perfect candidate for a Master of the Forge, too!"

Edited October 6, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Angel of Solitude]

Well huh. Expect an FAQ on this matter then!

 

Perhaps because the rules section has formatting similar to a unit keyword, then perhaps it does mean refer to the keyword and not the datasheet name...ignore what I previously said then. Ravenwing Chief Apothecaries for everybody!

[Jings]

I'd argue no. The exact line in the Codex is as follows:

 

"...you can upgrade any of the following ADEPTUS ASTARTES CHARACTER units in your army: CAPTAIN, CHAPLAIN, LIBRARIAN, TECHMARINE, APOTHECARY, ANCIENT, COMPANY CHAMPION". 

 

Emphasis added, because it specifically names the data sheet and not the keyword. RAVENWING APOTHECARY is the entry in the Index Astartes, and so in my mind is a different unit.

 

Interestingly though...the Deathwing Ancient is based on the ANCIENT data sheet, meaning that it can be upgraded to bring back the +1A banner. Huzzah!

 

As others have said, this would rule out Primaris being able to take the upgrade. The capitalization usually denotes keywords, so while RAW it can look as if it's limited to those specific units, it's quite clearly intended to be allow units with those keywords to take the upgrade. 

 

There's no "Ancient" datasheet, after all. You have your Company Ancient, Primaris Company Ancient, Terminator Ancient, but no "Ancient" on its own. Using the interpretation that it's directly referring to the units, there is no option at all for Chapter Ancient. 

 

I'd need to see the direct wording in full to be sure, but it seems to add up. I'd even argue that the Ravenwing Champion losing his Blade of Caliban for a MC Power Sword (which is the weapon upgraded when creating a Chapter Champion) further supports that the upgrades simply require a Character with the keyword. It's not as if they're new Datasheets, just additional/modified abilities and the odd stat increase. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Jings

[Skywrath]

With the new changes, does anyone see a place for the Deathwing Champion in our lists?

[Berzul]

He is better than he was. I think I might just get mine into the company colors, to include him in future mono-deathwing lists, actually.

[solarisqc]

They only thing Ravenwing miss now is the Command squad made of Blacknight with the bodyguard rules

 

You can have a command squad of 2 protecting an APO, Champion and Ancient.

You can have a deathwing command squad of 2 protecting a Deathwing Apo, Champion and Ancient

But you can't have a Ravenwing command squad of 2 blacknight protecting a Ravenwing Apo, Champion or Ancient.

 

The Deathwing Command squad is exactly the same as the Deathwing squad, except for the size of 2-5, why they didn't make the Ravenwing command squad, a squad of Blacknight with 2-5 and the bodyguard rules?

[Berzul]

I really hope we do not lose the Sableclaw.

 

When I made the fit between the lore of my chapter and my model collection, I did it considering Sableclaw, and not having access to him, I am in a bit of a bind...

 

In lore, my successor chapter has a 10 man squad as the 1st squad of the 8th company, which is where the Black Knights are. The squad is formed of 6 bikers, 3 brothers on a Landspeeder Vengeance, with the 10th man in charge of acting as gunner for the Talonmaster. The speeder of the Talonmaster is piloted by the 1st Lieutenant of the 8th company, with the 2nd lieutenant being the gunner for the speeder of the Company Master (who is the Sableclaw equivalent).

 

If Sableclaw is out (or gets Primarized), and we do not get a lieutenant on bike, it messes up my structure

[WrathOfTheLion]

There might end up a way to promote a Ravenwing master out of a Talonmaster, as well as one out of the Master on bike.

[Skywrath]

Can I get more opinions on the Deathwing Champion new data-sheet, if possible? Starting to feel really ignored here.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Skywrath

[Jings]

They only thing Ravenwing miss now is the Command squad made of Blacknight with the bodyguard rules

 

You can have a command squad of 2 protecting an APO, Champion and Ancient.

You can have a deathwing command squad of 2 protecting a Deathwing Apo, Champion and Ancient

But you can't have a Ravenwing command squad of 2 blacknight protecting a Ravenwing Apo, Champion or Ancient.

 

The Deathwing Command squad is exactly the same as the Deathwing squad, except for the size of 2-5, why they didn't make the Ravenwing command squad, a squad of Blacknight with 2-5 and the bodyguard rules?

 

I think because two T5 3W BKs would be a lot more attractive to spam than two Terminators. Tying them to Black Knights makes it a lot easier to fill out an Outrider, as otherwise you'd be paying an 80 point tax to fit in those characters (and potentially losing your Elite options, as I think you're limited to 1-2 in an Outrider). They could probably have done with adding the Bodyguard rules to BKs but it's not like we were running less than five anyway. The 5++ we get for moving should more than make up for it. 

 

EDIT - @Berzul you still get the Talonmaster, just not Sammeal in Sableclaw. It is a Lieutenant model after all, and you can bring two per slot now!

Edited October 6, 2020 by Jings

[Berzul]

Can I get more opinions on the Deathwing Champion new data-sheet, if possible? Starting to feel really ignored here.

The DW Champion still feels weird, because he gets to fight first and pile in against characters, but gains the extra attacks against hordes. So, what IS he supposed to be killing?

 

Now, Marital Superiority is a BIG improvement, and since you can now make one of your squads a "command squad" (which, why wouldn't you? they come equipped the same and cost almost the same as a regular squad) and thus remove the slot requirement for the champion, there are plenty of reasons to use him. Specially since he is very cheap, overall,  at just the cost of 2 regular terminators.

 

So, yeah, he definitely looks better than he did in 8th edition.

[WrathOfTheLion]

At 80 points, he would be a nice beatstick to place near some Deathwing terminators.

 

I think all of the command squad characters are much more attractive now that they don't explode how many slots they take.

 

That is not necessarily unique to the Deathwing Champion, all command squads are much more viable now that they don't take the entire FoC to field them like they did when they split them up in 8E.

Edited October 6, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[MeatGrinder]

Can I get more opinions on the Deathwing Champion new data-sheet, if possible? Starting to feel really ignored here.

The warscroll itself is decent, fight first, pretty killy, fits in that same kind of niche as a judicar but worse. Not sure he'll see much use though, is there really a spot for a slow moving 80pts beatstick character in DA lists?

 

 

Can I get more opinions on the Deathwing Champion new data-sheet, if possible? Starting to feel really ignored here.

The DW Champion still feels weird, because he gets to fight first and pile in against characters, but gains the extra attacks against hordes. So, what IS he supposed to be killing?

 

Now, Marital Superiority is a BIG improvement, and since you can now make one of your squads a "command squad" (which, why wouldn't you? they come equipped the same and cost almost the same as a regular squad) and thus remove the slot requirement for the champion, there are plenty of reasons to use him. Specially since he is very cheap, overall,  at just the cost of 2 regular terminators.

 

So, yeah, he definitely looks better than he did in 8th edition.

 

 

Those abilities are triggered just by proximity, so he can end up with 7 attacks striking first.

[Berzul]

 

Can I get more opinions on the Deathwing Champion new data-sheet, if possible? Starting to feel really ignored here.

The warscroll itself is decent, fight first, pretty killy, fits in that same kind of niche as a judicar but worse. Not sure he'll see much use though, is there really a spot for a slow moving 80pts beatstick character in DA lists?

 

 

Can I get more opinions on the Deathwing Champion new data-sheet, if possible? Starting to feel really ignored here.

The DW Champion still feels weird, because he gets to fight first and pile in against characters, but gains the extra attacks against hordes. So, what IS he supposed to be killing?

 

Now, Marital Superiority is a BIG improvement, and since you can now make one of your squads a "command squad" (which, why wouldn't you? they come equipped the same and cost almost the same as a regular squad) and thus remove the slot requirement for the champion, there are plenty of reasons to use him. Specially since he is very cheap, overall,  at just the cost of 2 regular terminators.

 

So, yeah, he definitely looks better than he did in 8th edition.

 

 

Those abilities are triggered just by proximity, so he can end up with 7 attacks striking first.

 

Yeah, but its still kinda weird.

[Angel of Solitude]

In the right situation, this guy could dish out 10 S8 attacks:

• 4 base
• +1 for heroically intervening
• +1 for relic (+1S too)
• +1 for chapter ancient upgrade
• +3 for heroically intervening into engagement range of a 10-man squad

I think there's a situation where you might be able to bait the opponent into making this happen. Deepstrike down him down with a Deathwing Terminator squad 9" away from an enemy squad accompanied by a character. Fire into your target of choice, and then don't bother making the charge. Next turn, you're close enough for the enemy to pile into your squad, allowing you to heroically intervene into the character and get the +1 to hit Grim Resolve bonus for staying still.

 

Completely situational, probably very fun, but I imagine there are more efficient ways to achieve the same result. 

[Berzul]

Its not THAT hard to pull that off. I mean, the 4 base, the +1 for the Angels of Battle, the +1 for the relic, those are all pretty much standard. So, your base is already 6 attacks. Then it is about engaging with a 10man squad, which is more situational, and the +1 from the ancient which seems to be gone from this Update, sadly.

[RayJ]

While the +1 attack buff from DW ancient is gone, terminator ancient does have the final attack of the classic astartes banner, which is nice

[Angel of Solitude]

The +1A is from upgrading to the Chapter Ancient. Yet to be clarified if you can upgrade the Deathwing Ancient, but if you can, then there you have it! (Although makes the model very expensive...)

[bigtrouble]

 

 

INTERROGATOR-CHAPLAIN IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR is in elite slot now.... Interesting

Hmmm. The data sheet shows the Elite symbol instead of the HQ symbol, but under the points costs, it's listed under HQ. I'd treat it as an HQ choice.

good catch

[bigtrouble]

 

 

I'd argue no. The exact line in the Codex is as follows:

 

"...you can upgrade any of the following ADEPTUS ASTARTES CHARACTER units in your army: CAPTAIN, CHAPLAIN, LIBRARIAN, TECHMARINE, APOTHECARY, ANCIENT, COMPANY CHAMPION".

 

Emphasis added, because it specifically names the data sheet and not the keyword. RAVENWING APOTHECARY is the entry in the Index Astartes, and so in my mind is a different unit.

 

Interestingly though...the Deathwing Ancient is based on the ANCIENT data sheet, meaning that it can be upgraded to bring back the +1A banner. Huzzah!

As others have said, this would rule out Primaris being able to take the upgrade. The capitalization usually denotes keywords, so while RAW it can look as if it's limited to those specific units, it's quite clearly intended to be allow units with those keywords to take the upgrade.

 

There's no "Ancient" datasheet, after all. You have your Company Ancient, Primaris Company Ancient, Terminator Ancient, but no "Ancient" on its own. Using the interpretation that it's directly referring to the units, there is no option at all for Chapter Ancient.

 

I'd need to see the direct wording in full to be sure, but it seems to add up. I'd even argue that the Ravenwing Champion losing his Blade of Caliban for a MC Power Sword (which is the weapon upgraded when creating a Chapter Champion) further supports that the upgrades simply require a Character with the keyword. It's not as if they're new Datasheets, just additional/modified abilities and the odd stat increase.

I think this is definitely key word oriented. ADEPTUS ASTARTES CHARACTER. Those are key words.

[Jings]

The +1A is from upgrading to the Chapter Ancient. Yet to be clarified if you can upgrade the Deathwing Ancient, but if you can, then there you have it! (Although makes the model very expensive...)

 

Kinda wishing they'd kept it and just bumped him up 20 points but it's not that big a deal. 

 

DW Champ looks at least better than he has been in the past. I like playing little games, so being able to slot him into a Vanguard would be great.