New Space marine Codex and DA

[Gederas]

The +1 damage to weapons against vehicles and buildings during Devastator Doctrine now only applies to Str 7 and higher weapons. So all the Stalker Bolt Rifles, Heavy Bolters, and Gatling variants which became very good anti-tank (due to volume of fire per points spent versus damage output) are not as universally good as they were.

This

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yep, the IF lost out quite a bit in the wrong way. I do not like it. If they thought the extra damage was too much, they should have changed what the buff was from +1 damage to something else, so it at least was universally applicable to the types of weapons they should be using.

[Berzul]

The +1 damage to weapons against vehicles and buildings during Devastator Doctrine now only applies to Str 7 and higher weapons. So all the Stalker Bolt Rifles, Heavy Bolters, and Gatling variants which became very good anti-tank (due to volume of fire per points spent versus damage output) are not as universally good as they were.

Well, yeah. That sucks.

[bigtrouble]

Gav Thorpes asked the most important question in Angels of Darkness, "what are the Dark Angels without the Fallen?" and absolutely no one within the company has since addressed it. Why did the question have to be asked? Because Imperial Fists had become the "stubborn chapter" and Black Templars had become the "knight chapter."

 

If GW wants to start stressing that the Deathwing are the really intractable marines then awesome. How they choose to do that, well, I'm not 100% on-board with the Index, but I don't write the rules.

Agreed 100%. They never really gave Dark Angels in 40k their own "flavour" that wasn't tied to the Fallen, instead giving it to other Chapters.

 

With regards to DA’s “thing” I think of it as three things, combined arms, strategy, and elite forces. Putting the right guys in the right place at the right time to do special things. This edition may get as close to that as possible.

 

EDIT: also, the fear that it will always be taken away from us is hilariously on-point for Dark Angels.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz

[Master Sheol]

The flavour of DA should be:

 

SWORDMANSHIP - they are knights so they rely on the duel abilities (in melee they should be fine duellists like EC for example and The 5 main characters of the Chapter -Azrael, Belial, Samael, Sapphon, Ezekiel- have a powerful sword and are totally able to use it with devastating effect)

 

STRATEGY - the Lion was the best strategist of the Legions (this should reflect with Brilliant Strategist WT)

 

FIRST LEGION- The DA being the first legion are the blueprint on wuch every other legion imitated a particular warfare approach so DA are able to do all in a good way without reaching the zenith in every particular field (so they should be able to adapt to the enemy assault a shooty army, shoot out a melee army and so on) this leads to the next point

 

WINGS - when a balanced approach is not available cause the enemy is better than you in something then the specific wing is deployed to exploit the week points of the enemy (but in 40k the main role of the two surviving Wings is the Hunt to the Fallen so the DA lost this thing from 30k even of DW and RW are strong now)

 

FALLEN - DA hates Chaos due to the Fall of Caliban and the Fallen with a hatred bigger than any other Imperium faction (DA already have this rules)

 

ANCIENT EQUIPMENTS- Being the first legion DA have access and can use ancient equipments better than other Legions (stratagems like WotDA and particular equipments like Dark Talon cannon or PC on DWT already cover it but i think the DA abilities with rare weapons shpuld extended also to things like grav and volkite weapons too)

 

This is what defines DA IMHO

 

 

P.S.: if i put TDA in Teleport Strike i have to pay CP or not? Some says that is free CP ability

Edited October 8, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Angel of Solitude]

P.S.: if i put TDA in Teleport Strike i have to pay CP or not? Some says that is free CP ability

 

Teleport Strike is a "deployment ability" which allows you to place the unit in the teleport chamber at the start of the game. It is a unit ability, and so you do not have to pay command points for it. 

[Master Sheol]

 

 

P.S.: if i put TDA in Teleport Strike i have to pay CP or not? Some says that is free CP ability

Teleport Strike is a "deployment ability" which allows you to place the unit in the teleport chamber at the start of the game. It is a unit ability, and so you do not have to pay command points for it.

Thanks

So Death from Above too then

Tasty DW in CP free Deep Strike

[Volt]

 

 

 

Dark Angels never had a bit like that. Games Workshop (and Forge World, this has been a problem in 30k as well) never really had a good idea what they’re about – they weren’t really a definable type of Guy.

 

I've been saying that for years. Gav Thorpes asked the most important question in Angels of Darkness, "what are the Dark Angels without the Fallen?" and absolutely no one within the company has since addressed it. Why did the question have to be asked? Because Imperial Fists had become the "stubborn chapter" and Black Templars had become the "knight chapter."

 

If GW wants to start stressing that the Deathwing are the really intractable marines then awesome. How they choose to do that, well, I'm not 100% on-board with the Index, but I don't write the rules.

 

I mean the answer is simple. The Dark Angels are still the no-nonsense marines of the Legion days. They don't get caught up in silly honor duels. They don't do goofy rites like the masochist Imperial Fists. They don't obsess with civilians like some kind of demented heroes like the Ultramarines or Crimson Fists. They're marines, the purest form, in that they go to a battle, do their job, and succeed by any means necessary. In a galaxy full of lunatics, fools, and zealots, the Dark Angels are the professionals that fit 40k the most in fulfilling what a marine is. They aren't good guys who come to deliver you from evil. The shoot whatever the problem is, with little regard for collateral, then hop back in the space ship without even bothering with the civilian who is wondering what in the hell just happened. Then they drop down on another battlefield and repeat.

[Master Sheol]

 

 

 

 

Dark Angels never had a bit like that. Games Workshop (and Forge World, this has been a problem in 30k as well) never really had a good idea what they’re about – they weren’t really a definable type of Guy.

I've been saying that for years. Gav Thorpes asked the most important question in Angels of Darkness, "what are the Dark Angels without the Fallen?" and absolutely no one within the company has since addressed it. Why did the question have to be asked? Because Imperial Fists had become the "stubborn chapter" and Black Templars had become the "knight chapter."

 

If GW wants to start stressing that the Deathwing are the really intractable marines then awesome. How they choose to do that, well, I'm not 100% on-board with the Index, but I don't write the rules.

I mean the answer is simple. The Dark Angels are still the no-nonsense marines of the Legion days. They don't get caught up in silly honor duels. They don't do goofy rites like the masochist Imperial Fists. They don't obsess with civilians like some kind of demented heroes like the Ultramarines or Crimson Fists. They're marines, the purest form, in that they go to a battle, do their job, and succeed by any means necessary. In a galaxy full of lunatics, fools, and zealots, the Dark Angels are the professionals that fit 40k the most in fulfilling what a marine is. They aren't good guys who come to deliver you from evil. The shoot whatever the problem is, with little regard for collateral, then hop back in the space ship without even bothering with the civilian who is wondering what in the hell just happened. Then they drop down on another battlefield and repeat.

This is true and there is a story about of imperial civilian saved by a strike force of DA leaded by Asmodai that after the battle are HAPPY the DA leave cause all the time the were cold efficent and superior to the point of being ankward to fight with. The Imperial men were brave and Loyal but still Asmodai was inquisitive towards them (he is always searching for Fallen ofc)

 

But DA are also noble knight gone bad

There is such a brotherhood of spirit among the DW members that the sergeant of the squads are appointed not by Belial but by the members of the squads that choose the brothers they trust the most to lead them

 

DA are a peculiar chapter

They look cold but they are also a strong brotherhood of knights

Edited October 8, 2020 by Master Sheol

[jaxom]

The flavour of DA should be:

 

SWORDMANSHIP - they are knights so they rely on the duel abilities (in melee they should be fine duellists like EC for example and The 5 main characters of the Chapter -Azrael, Belial, Samael, Sapphon, Ezekiel- have a powerful sword and are totally able to use it with devastating effect)

 

STRATEGY - the Lion was the best strategist of the Legions (this should reflect with Brilliant Strategist WT)

 

FIRST LEGION- The DA being the first legion are the blueprint on wuch every other legion imitated a particular warfare approach so DA are able to do all in a good way without reaching the zenith in every particular field (so they should be able to adapt to the enemy assault a shooty army, shoot out a melee army and so on) this leads to the next point

 

WINGS - when a balanced approach is not available cause the enemy is better than you in something then the specific wing is deployed to exploit the week points of the enemy (but in 40k the main role of the two surviving Wings is the Hunt to the Fallen so the DA lost this thing from 30k even of DW and RW are strong now)

 

FALLEN - DA hates Chaos due to the Fall of Caliban and the Fallen with a hatred bigger than any other Imperium faction (DA already have this rules)

 

ANCIENT EQUIPMENTS- Being the first legion DA have access and can use ancient equipments better than other Legions (stratagems like WotDA and particular equipments like Dark Talon cannon or PC on DWT already cover it but i think the DA abilities with rare weapons shpuld extended also to things like grav and volkite weapons too)

 

This is what defines DA IMHO

 

 

P.S.: if i put TDA in Teleport Strike i have to pay CP or not? Some says that is free CP ability

 

 

 

 

 

Dark Angels never had a bit like that. Games Workshop (and Forge World, this has been a problem in 30k as well) never really had a good idea what they’re about – they weren’t really a definable type of Guy.

 

I've been saying that for years. Gav Thorpes asked the most important question in Angels of Darkness, "what are the Dark Angels without the Fallen?" and absolutely no one within the company has since addressed it. Why did the question have to be asked? Because Imperial Fists had become the "stubborn chapter" and Black Templars had become the "knight chapter."

 

If GW wants to start stressing that the Deathwing are the really intractable marines then awesome. How they choose to do that, well, I'm not 100% on-board with the Index, but I don't write the rules.

 

I mean the answer is simple. The Dark Angels are still the no-nonsense marines of the Legion days. They don't get caught up in silly honor duels. They don't do goofy rites like the masochist Imperial Fists. They don't obsess with civilians like some kind of demented heroes like the Ultramarines or Crimson Fists. They're marines, the purest form, in that they go to a battle, do their job, and succeed by any means necessary. In a galaxy full of lunatics, fools, and zealots, the Dark Angels are the professionals that fit 40k the most in fulfilling what a marine is. They aren't good guys who come to deliver you from evil. The shoot whatever the problem is, with little regard for collateral, then hop back in the space ship without even bothering with the civilian who is wondering what in the hell just happened. Then they drop down on another battlefield and repeat.

 

 

 

 

 

Dark Angels never had a bit like that. Games Workshop (and Forge World, this has been a problem in 30k as well) never really had a good idea what they’re about – they weren’t really a definable type of Guy.

I've been saying that for years. Gav Thorpes asked the most important question in Angels of Darkness, "what are the Dark Angels without the Fallen?" and absolutely no one within the company has since addressed it. Why did the question have to be asked? Because Imperial Fists had become the "stubborn chapter" and Black Templars had become the "knight chapter."

 

If GW wants to start stressing that the Deathwing are the really intractable marines then awesome. How they choose to do that, well, I'm not 100% on-board with the Index, but I don't write the rules.

I mean the answer is simple. The Dark Angels are still the no-nonsense marines of the Legion days. They don't get caught up in silly honor duels. They don't do goofy rites like the masochist Imperial Fists. They don't obsess with civilians like some kind of demented heroes like the Ultramarines or Crimson Fists. They're marines, the purest form, in that they go to a battle, do their job, and succeed by any means necessary. In a galaxy full of lunatics, fools, and zealots, the Dark Angels are the professionals that fit 40k the most in fulfilling what a marine is. They aren't good guys who come to deliver you from evil. The shoot whatever the problem is, with little regard for collateral, then hop back in the space ship without even bothering with the civilian who is wondering what in the hell just happened. Then they drop down on another battlefield and repeat.

This is true and there is a story about of imperial civilian saved by a strike force of DA leaded by Asmodai that after the battle are HAPPY the DA leave cause all the time the were cold efficent and superior to the point of being ankward to fight with. The Imperial men were brave and Loyal but still Asmodai was inquisitive towards them (he is always searching for Fallen ofc)

 

But DA are also noble knight gone bad

There is such a brotherhood of spirit among the DW members that the sergeant of the squads are appointed not by Belial but by the members of the squads that choose the brothers they trust the most to lead them

 

DA are a peculiar chapter

They look cold but they are also a strong brotherhood of knights

 

 

My perspective on the 40k Dark Angels chapter is very different from most of this. And I guess that's kind of the point of the Goonhammer statement; if a space marine chapter doesn't have a single "they're the [???] Guys," then its hard to decide what needs to be reflected in the rules for them.

[Master Sheol]

My perspective on the 40k Dark Angels chapter is very different from most of this. And I guess that's kind of the point of the Goonhammer statement; if a space marine chapter doesn't have a single "they're the [???] Guys," then its hard to decide what needs to be reflected in the rules for them.

DA have their own identity and you can see it in the teaching of the Lion

 

"Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.” [Lion 'el Jonson]

 

The DA are the chapter that fights against all odds and they are also the most versatile ones with two specialistic companies that work in perfect synergy due to their superior tactics and they possess a lot of rare and ancient equipments

DA are masters of the clinical warfare based on superior strategy and driven by stubborn courage due to their knightly beliefs

 

In few words?

Dark Angels are stubborn knights and are the best strategists of the Astartes Chapters

 

This is not enough for you to define them?

Edited October 8, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Berzul]

Well, fighting against all odds is kind of the Crimson Fists, thing.

But yeah, I would agree that what defines us is:

In personality, we have:
Knightly virtue and honor. To the point that it distances us from others that we see as bellow us, with that making us insular and secretive. Our code makes us capable of facing the most terrible of fates, when others would turn and run, as our loyalty and courage are beyond that of everyone else.

As a character flaw, we are:
Marked by guilt and shame. Due to our own sense of honor, failings are greater for us, than for others. Again, with this forcing us into an insular disposition, and a secretive conduct. No shame being greater than the Fallen, of course.

Our area o expertise, as an army, is:
Strategy. We pursue victory through combined arms and specialists wings. Which makes it weird that we always want to play mono-DW or mono-RW. We are a force that operates as a well organized machine of death, deploying various assets in a synchronized pattern of attack, to destroy whatever needs to be destroyed.

Whether the Fallen exist or not, that alone does not define us. We are the strategists, and we are the ones who set up the example of virtue and honor that is the mold by which other forces of the Astartes were made (and should act). That makes us believe ourselves apart from them, and above them. Which turns us secretive, insular, and less capable of working with others as well as we work within ourselves.

 

As a side note:
I'll never forget the very FIRST trait I ever read about our army.

 

It said that, while other astartes would march to war boasting, screaming and yelling angry war cries, the Dark Angels march to war silently. Chanting hymns of a solemn nature, as hell breaks all around them. Never breaking into panic. Never falling into bloodlust. Never seeking glory.

 

No. We keep calm. We stay silent, and even mournful. We have a grim form of resolve, with which we march into battle, seeking only to do our duty for our own duty's sake; for we need no other form of praise, prize or renown to be granted unto us, beyond the inner certainty of having done our duty, as the loyal sons of the first Primarch.

 

For loyalty is its own reward.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Berzul

[Brother Bahram]

In few words?

Dark Angels are stubborn knights and are the best strategists of the Astartes Chapters

 

This is not enough for you to define them?

Second that!

[Charlo]

I think a lot of the stuff about identity is getting confused between DA as a Legion and DA as a Chapter.

 

Sure, as a Legion they were ruthless killers that set the mould as to what a Legiones Astartes should be. This was further augmented with layers upon layers of expertise and the freedom to persue this expertise. They were reliable but also arrogant. They later paid for that arrogance. They were also at one point the size of one hundred and thirty space marine chapters. This obviously allowed for much more diversity.

 

As a Chapter, the DA are harbouring a 10,000 year old secret. They are insular and self-serving. They are defensive to a fault and ironically, much less adaptable than their Legion ancestors. They're a codex adherant chapter with a penchant for Terminators in the 1st Company and Bikes in the 2nd. However they do still retain that ruthless efficiency but fewer specialisms than a full legion size would allow.

 

Now, there are some arguments that other wings may have formed their own chapters (very plausible, the Firewing were assassins and the Consecrators are charged above else with hunting the Fallen and wear their symbol as heraldry) but its not confirmed and officially, chapters don't give eachother orders outside of extreme circumstance (see Devastation of Baal).

 

What I will say, is that the new rules are strong and plenty fluffy! Finally capturing that raw tenacity of the DA.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Some of the Wings still exist in aspects of the Chapter structure.

 

The Interrogator-Chaplains are a vestigial aspect of the Firewing for example, being the most notable example.

 

The three chapters that have iconography from the Wings are the Star Phantoms with the Dreadwing, the Guardians of the Covenant with the Deathwing and the Consecrators with the Firewing.

Edited October 8, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[HandsWithLegs]

I think the difference between the BT knightly aesthetic and the DA knightly aesthetic is that BT are crusader knights, (brutal fanatics), while DA are closer to Arthurian knights or knights from fairy tails and myths (stalwart and courageous)

[Master Sheol]

I think the difference between the BT knightly aesthetic and the DA knightly aesthetic is that BT are crusader knights, (brutal fanatics), while DA are closer to Arthurian knights or knights from fairy tails and myths (stalwart and courageous)

Totally this

While both DA and BT are a brotherhood of knights they have a different approach to war cause BT are religious fanatics that believe that the Emperor is a God and charge into melee with fervour while DA are ruthless efficent strategists that shoot when needed and charge into melee when needed

[FarFromSam]

Just wanted to pop in and say how happy I am that we are playable. It's been a lonnnnnnng time coming.

 

Having said that, I accept the incoming band wagoners, and hope they make an attempt to honor the first. I also think long time DA players are building their list knowing that they'll be nerfed into the dirt soon.

 

Enjoy it while we can brothers!

Edited October 9, 2020 by farfromsam

[Berzul]

I truly believe our "Always On Transhuman Physiology" is the first thing getting taken out, come Codex-time.

 

But, in the interim, we FINALLY have the rules so that our Chapter is more than just the Ravenwing.

 

I miss some things that we lost, but overall, I am THRILLED by this FAQ.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I am hopeful that it is here to stay. Either way, it has me very excited, I am very optimistic. Need to finish those Deathwing miniatures I've been working on!

 

Been focusing more on Horus Heresy 1st Legion recently, but this has me happy enough to be doing more with 40k too.

[Berzul]

I am hopeful that it is here to stay. Either way, it has me very excited, I am very optimistic. Need to finish those Deathwing miniatures I've been working on!

 

Been focusing more on Horus Heresy 1st Legion recently, but this has me happy enough to be doing more with 40k too.

Get on it, brother!! The Deathwing needs as many battle brothers as possible!!

[solarisqc]

We may keep the built-in Transhuman if armies like Custode, Grey knight and Imperial/Chaos Knight gain something equivalent. The release of the Death guard Codex will give us a good idea of the directive line GW will take with resilient armies.

 

The new Codes Necron and space marine introduce new concept in the game like updrade datasheet (company command and necron command) and we can asume Deathguard will have a similar mechanic too. It also add limitation to aura buff/debuff and small armies will get hurt alot by this type of change.

 

Stratagem like WFTDA or Deathwing assault, only in Death does duty end and Honor the chapter was key stratagem to help the damage output of armies like Deathwing/ravenwing who have a small body count. The new rules make this type of armies more interesting to play because instead of knowing in the first 1-2 turn of the game who win base on the alpha strike succes dependent of reroll/stratagem/aura the new rules give them resiliance to extend the damage output of those unit during the completed game.

 

A Deathwing squad don't need to shoot twice (Deathwing assault), charge (buff by character aura) and fight twice (honor the chapter) now because it will be able to survive retaliation. The new rules let this type of armies shoot again the next turn, or fight again the next turn because they will survive against lots of offensive power.

 

The offensive power of Deathwing/Ravenwing armies have go down alot with the change to Reroll, Tallonmaster aura, and stratagem but the game will be alot more interesting for/against them because it will not be auto win if they play first or auto lose if they play last. It was realy easy to table a RW/DW armies if the alpha strike didn't work, not any more.

 

Games will need to be play before we can realy find the impact of the new Jink/Inner circle rules. If everyone have more FUN playing DA with the new rules than we ever have before, it will be a win/win and the rules will stay, if people don't like games with the new rules it will change.

Edited October 9, 2020 by solarisqc

[WrathOfTheLion]

The new Deathwing especially is fantastic, at least fluff-wise and not just rulewise. It reminds me a ton of the Deathwing Right of War from HH. Although sub-par unfortunately, one cool part is it gets a FNP when on an objective. I see both of these and I get the feeling that this is a Deathwing tied to the same one 10 millennia prior.

[Morticon]

 

Games will need to be play before we can realy find the impact of the new Jink/Inner circle rules. If everyone have more FUN playing DA with the new rules than we ever have before, it will be a win/win and the rules will stay, if people don't like games with the new rules it will change.

 

After 3 games vs them, I can say that theyre terrifying.  

Deathwing are the new hotness.  You really just need to avoid them when there's a banner in the mix.  I think, one of the solutions (and things you guys should look out for) is the Vindicare. According to the "rare rules" section - his 2+ to wound on infantry will take precedence, so he will probably try hit the banner asap to remove that horrid 5+++. 

 

 

Also, new heavy Hellblasters are unreal with 2 damage flat- and 3 on OC.  Even without WotDA - with Azzy babysitting, theyre getting dev doctrine bonus for 3 turns and are hitting on 2s, RR 1s.  So, so so good.   Theyve been the stars of my mate's army. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Do you think the Deathwing are broken good, or just very good?

 

I haven't gotten a game, but from what I see, the rules seem fairly well-crafted to not stack too much, so I'm thinking they're here to stay.

 

I was just going to buy some more DW terminators last week, but alas, they have been sold out actually since before the new FAQ.

Edited October 10, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion