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[Sword Brother Adelard]

That's admittedly harder to define.

 

But it's certainly not out-psychering armies with heavy psyker capability.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

That isn't even heavy psychic capability. TS and GK are heavy, and they blow 6 casts out of the water. That is moderate psychic. It's what you'll see from Chaos or Aeldar pretty regularly. 3ish casts is low psychic, what you might see from Orks if they're pushing their psychic, or other SM.

 

The fact is, there are a lot of melee chapters at this point. White Scars, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels are all really good at melee, and in all cases other than the White Scars those armies will have 2 denies on the field at the very least.

 

SW like their rune priests for buffing and debuffing.

BA have psychic dreads and good psycher characters.

DA have good psychic characters AND each of their Deathwing units get a free once per game psychic deny on top of that.

 

The only way we get 3 denies is to take a single specific named character, then use both a warlord trait and a strat. Base line we're even worse than a chapter that includes a single psycher. At our best we're even with armies who aren't trying hard.

 

This is important to map out because denying psychic Is actually our thing. Our nich should be hard psychic deny and melee, to counter the WS fast melee, the BA or SW efficient melee, or the DA tough melee. At the very least all of our characters should have a built in deny on top of what we can scrounge from elsewhere. Hell, we don't even have relics that make it harder for people to cast, we only have the awful skull that is once per game damage, and psychic bolts which are decent.

 

So yeah, I find it funny that anyone would say we're good at psychic deny. The numbers for that just don't add up. Are neatest trick is paying for a 50 50 shot to deny a power someone rolled well on, and it isn't even unique to us. We're good at resisting mortals, but that is a very small part of what psychic is, and funnily enough makes us better at fighting spooky Necron magic than actual Psychers.

[BitsHammer]

What's our thing tho?

Martial discipline, zeal and training new recruits via a squire system. Oh, and Crusades.

That isn't even heavy psychic capability. TS and GK are heavy, and they blow 6 casts out of the water. That is moderate psychic. It's what you'll see from Chaos or Aeldar pretty regularly. 3ish casts is low psychic, what you might see from Orks if they're pushing their psychic, or other SM.

 

The fact is, there are a lot of melee chapters at this point. White Scars, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels are all really good at melee, and in all cases other than the White Scars those armies will have 2 denies on the field at the very least.

 

SW like their rune priests for buffing and debuffing.

BA have psychic dreads and good psycher characters.

DA have good psychic characters AND each of their Deathwing units get a free once per game psychic deny on top of that.

 

The only way we get 3 denies is to take a single specific named character, then use both a warlord trait and a strat. Base line we're even worse than a chapter that includes a single psycher. At our best we're even with armies who aren't trying hard.

 

This is important to map out because denying psychic Is actually our thing. Our nich should be hard psychic deny and melee, to counter the WS fast melee, the BA or SW efficient melee, or the DA tough melee. At the very least all of our characters should have a built in deny on top of what we can scrounge from elsewhere. Hell, we don't even have relics that make it harder for people to cast, we only have the awful skull that is once per game damage, and psychic bolts which are decent.

 

So yeah, I find it funny that anyone would say we're good at psychic deny. The numbers for that just don't add up. Are neatest trick is paying for a 50 50 shot to deny a power someone rolled well on, and it isn't even unique to us. We're good at resisting mortals, but that is a very small part of what psychic is, and funnily enough makes us better at fighting spooky Necron magic than actual Psychers.

Sisters of battle actively seek out and hunt witches far more than the Templars actively do, and they have even less psychic defense so I'm not sure if we have room to be complaining here.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

In terms of psychic powers, our thing isn't to counter them, it's to resist them, shrug them off and scorn them through prayer. Our FNP represents this well IMO. Wanting more is unrealistic.

[BitsHammer]

In terms of psychic powers, our thing isn't to counter them, it's to resist them, shrug them off and scorn them through prayer. Our FNP represents this well IMO. Wanting more is unrealistic.

My thought exactly. And as I pointed out it works against mortal wounds for a wider variety of sources than just psychic powers which makes us better at fighting things like C'Tan and Daemon Primarchs who can toss mortals around.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Not to mention the janky stuff like exploding vehicles and the MWs some weapons kick out. Vindicator Laser Destroyers come to mind...

[BitsHammer]

Not to mention the janky stuff like exploding vehicles and the MWs some weapons kick out. Vindicator Laser Destroyers come to mind...

Yeah, don't shoot a Templar with a mortal wound causing weapon, you'll just make him angry. Well, angrier.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

In terms of psychic powers, our thing isn't to counter them, it's to resist them, shrug them off and scorn them through prayer. Our FNP represents this well IMO. Wanting more is unrealistic.

 

 

I disagree only on the basis that we're still a bit too easy to bully with debuffing powers. If an army has a psychic way to both debuff us and buff themselves we don't have nearly enough tools to stop them. 

 

I run into this a lot when I play Khorne Daemons too. Khorne, the god of war and hating psychers, has very few ways to actually deny psychic. Most other Chaos Daemon armies do it better because all of their buffing psychers can also psychic deny. As a result, the nuances of the psychic phase and how it can ruin my day are something I'm very familiar with. It happens to come up a lot on both of the armies I actively play.

 

That's why I'm so laser focused in on this particular topic when it gets brought up. If we want a way to represent BT as anti-psychic marines on the table then we need more. And if we don't do that, I honestly can't say how we'd make our boys stand out more from the better assault chapters. They've taken most of the good buffs for themselves.

 

As for the psychic denying capabilities of SOB, I can't comment at the moment. I'd need to go back and refresh myself on their rules, as we lost the active player of them in my area and I've forgotten most of it. I seem to recall them having universal deny that needed targeted buffing to make it work? If the discussion on that continues I'll look it up and actually figure out what they can do psycher wise.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The sisters psychic denial is minimal, they all have a 1D6 deny, then require a lot of things to align in order to increase the scores beyond 6.

Generally, our resilience is good, as is our mobility. 

The problem with us not standing out as an assault chapter I think comes back to our doctrine bonus being the worst assault one in the army. The chapter tactic is fine, but it's the lack of any boost to combat in the assault doctrine which hurts us. 

I don't want our army to stand out more than the other assault chapters, but we should at least be on a par. 

[Medjugorje]

If you have that many problems with them... then try a Phobos Captain with Anti psyker ammo... 

Then you dont have to deal with that scum..

 

I love that relic... but as a tournament player I dont see many psykers on the other half of the board.

[CastellanDeMolay]

 

In terms of psychic powers, our thing isn't to counter them, it's to resist them, shrug them off and scorn them through prayer. Our FNP represents this well IMO. Wanting more is unrealistic.

 

 

I disagree only on the basis that we're still a bit too easy to bully with debuffing powers. If an army has a psychic way to both debuff us and buff themselves we don't have nearly enough tools to stop them. 

 

I run into this a lot when I play Khorne Daemons too. Khorne, the god of war and hating psychers, has very few ways to actually deny psychic. Most other Chaos Daemon armies do it better because all of their buffing psychers can also psychic deny. As a result, the nuances of the psychic phase and how it can ruin my day are something I'm very familiar with. It happens to come up a lot on both of the armies I actively play.

 

That's why I'm so laser focused in on this particular topic when it gets brought up. If we want a way to represent BT as anti-psychic marines on the table then we need more. And if we don't do that, I honestly can't say how we'd make our boys stand out more from the better assault chapters. They've taken most of the good buffs for themselves.

 

As for the psychic denying capabilities of SOB, I can't comment at the moment. I'd need to go back and refresh myself on their rules, as we lost the active player of them in my area and I've forgotten most of it. I seem to recall them having universal deny that needed targeted buffing to make it work? If the discussion on that continues I'll look it up and actually figure out what they can do psycher wise.

 

I think I see what you're getting at here. Other armies have ways to buff themselves that BT lack, some of whom already outshine BT once the Assault has started, and without a better super-Doctrine or a way to either counter the enemy buffs, debuff the enemy or for our units to be self-sufficient [comparable to what other armies can achieve with in-game buffs] within the current meta, we are left at a competitive disadvantage. 

 

What we do currently have is a pretty good chance at being first to strike during Assault, given our movement-related special rules and stratagems. I haven't played in quite a while, so I'll ask here: Does anyone think a higher probability of attacking first can be leveraged sufficiently to make up for our relative inability to buff/debuff/prevent buffs, or do you think we need something else? If so, would it be enough that our super-Doctrine capitalised on successful charges? Does the EC need to be better at assassinating characters in order to deny their ability to buff other units? (it seems like Eliminators might do the job somewhat more efficiently)  

[BitsHammer]

The sisters psychic denial is minimal, they all have a 1D6 deny, then require a lot of things to align in order to increase the scores beyond 6.

Generally, our resilience is good, as is our mobility. 

 

The problem with us not standing out as an assault chapter I think comes back to our doctrine bonus being the worst assault one in the army. The chapter tactic is fine, but it's the lack of any boost to combat in the assault doctrine which hurts us. 

 

I don't want our army to stand out more than the other assault chapters, but we should at least be on a par. 

I've been wondering about my gut feeling about the Swords doctrine trait, so I decided to quickly crunch some numbers for 10 Assault Intercessors on the charge:

 

With Doctrine Bonus:

GEQ: 18.22

MEQ: 4.31

TEQ: 1.94

 

With Assault Bonus (no doctrine):

GEQ: 5.74

MEQ: 2.7

TEQ: 1.94

 

No Bonus:

GEQ: 4.73

MEQ: 1.94

TEQ: 1.19

So the Sword makes us better at killing chaffe, and doubles the number of Marines we can kill, but it's near worthless against TEQ since we average 1 dead Terminator either way.

 

I haven't checked the BA or SW ones, but seeing that it has some use was nice to see.

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Sorry, Sword?

[BitsHammer]

Sorry, Sword?

Sorry, "Knights of Sigismund". My brain blanked on the name and I thought of swordsman ship and apparently went with that.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think the comparison is needed. I predict the differences will be stark.

[BitsHammer]

I think the comparison is needed. I predict the differences will be stark.

Alright same stipulations as before: 10 Assault Intercessors on the charge (41 attacks).

 

Blood Angels (+1 to wound on charge, doctrine gives +1 attack):

With Doctrine Bonus:

GEQ: 28.33

MEQ: 7.31

TEQ: 3.44

 

With Assault Bonus (no doctrine):

GEQ: 22.78

MEQ: 5.82

TEQ: 2.7

 

No Bonus:

GEQ: 18.98

MEQ: 4.31

TEQ: 1.69

 

Space Wolves (+1 to hit, doctrine gives 6 to hit give 1 extra hit):

With Doctrine Bonus:

GEQ: 31.89

MEQ: 7.72

TEQ: 3.65

 

With Assault Bonus (no doctrine):

GEQ: 22.78

MEQ: 5.44

TEQ: 2.51

 

No Bonus:

GEQ: 18.98

MEQ: 4.02

TEQ: 1.56

I used a combat calculator, so the doctrine numbers for the Wolves might be off, because I'm not 100% if it did 6s or 6+s for the extra hits.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Fulkes

[Sword Brother Adelard]

White Scars would be pretty dramatic too.

 

That's quite a big difference.

[BitsHammer]

Yeah, I mean ours is fine but it definitely lags behind other chapters. Maybe if we had something like a built in parry in melee or a counter attack when we roll 6s on armour saves.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I've said it elsewhere, but all ours does is increase reliability of our existing attacks, but doesn't increase the damage ceiling.

 

Whereas all of the others give a bonus which increases the possible total damage above the norm.

[BitsHammer]

I've said it elsewhere, but all ours does is increase reliability of our existing attacks, but doesn't increase the damage ceiling.

 

Whereas all of the others give a bonus which increases the possible total damage above the norm.

Arguably it shows that we're more skilled in melee since we land more of our hits, but the damage ceiling thing is definitely a problem.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Another idea for how to deal with witches:

 

Shield of Faith: This vow imposes a -1 penalty upon an enemy psyker's To Hit and To Wound rolls, whenever the psyker attempts to affect a model which takes it. (Ideally, I wish to force the foul witch to roll for Perils of the Warp whenever he/she/it/they attempt to bewitch a Templar, but that may be game-breaking.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like it Bjorn .

[SirJyo]

I've said it before but skillfully parry or vicious réposte as our doctrine would be a flavor and rule win.

 

This way we avoid the damage ceiling and look like we studied the blade.

 

Otherwise our "thing" has been for a while getting closer to the enemy well and being ok with swords.

Edited December 15, 2020 by SirJyo

[9x19 Parabellum]

Another idea for how to deal with witches:

 

...

 

Build a bridge out of her...

[Medjugorje]

after Sword getting S5 our ability for autowounds is not that important for those types of meleeweapon too.

Dealing damage in CC as Core rule instead of Stratagem would be very nice too. So each opponent will have problems yes.... But be honest.. -1 to hit is not that strong since there is a limit. Dont forget that Hammers and Fists are already -1 to hit... So after the special rule from Death guard is to decrease toughness it would be nice if we decrease the weapon skill of each enemy within 3" to -1 and not the hit roll... 

 

So that would be a real improvement and "our thing" to be faster in melee would be still our tactic (which i really love)

Edited December 15, 2020 by Medjugorje