GW and their recent approaches

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Currency conversion is a serious gripe as well. US have it horrible, with VAT included into the conversion rate. Australia and New Zealand have it worse, I think their predatory conversion rates are significantly immoral.

I thought the same, but that's how it is with alot of stuff. Look at an American to Britain sale, Xbox games are currently $59.99 new in the U.S., and are £59.99 over seas (I looked at NHL 21 for an example). I'm grateful, I spend a whole hell of alot more on that hobby than this hobby so I'll take the wonky conversions haha.

 

The thing is America does not include sales tax. So there is a further 6+% cost on it, while the conversion rate obviously includes the UK taxes in it. So essentially we get double taxed, without paying two taxes.

 

As an example, for an order, I paid $50 + $4.55 for a MK IV kit and a pot of paint, for $55.55 total. But I still on top of the screwed conversion have to pay sales tax, so I really pay $58.37.

 

The same applies with said game, where there is no VAT equivalent computed in the cost of $59.99, so they have to add that. The problem with GW is that they include for Uk/Eu tax in their conversion, then add some, and then we have sales tax added on top of that inflated conversion.

 

While I was in Europe, it was something like a 33% reduction in price just to purchase the kits in the EU vs the US, and that's even with the EU rate over the UK rate. So, for example, purchasing an intercessor box is 35 pounds in the UK, but after the proprietary conversion rate and tax, US customers end up paying about 48-50 pounds for one box of intercessors.

 

Accounting for tax into that $60 US game and VAT in the EU, it should roughly translate to 60 Euros or so, so no real bs going on with conversion there.

Edited November 4, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Firedrake Cordova]

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

I'm probably in the minority here insofar as I no longer play 40K (I find the Specialist Games range are better games), but I was always in it for the models and background, and picked their equipment based on background, and "rule of cool".  For example, being a Salamanders player, my captain has a bolter-flamer and relic blade (modelled as a power hammer), a few of the sergeants have power mauls (modelled as hammers), and you'll see Tactical squads with multi-meltas, too.

 

GW’s trademark conversion for USD is pretty crazy as well. Intercessors are nearly double from £35 to $60 when the conversion rate is $1.3 to £1 and that’s the most favorable it’s been for them in quite awhile...

Whilst it's not uncommon for multi-national companies to indulge in market-based pricing, with the US I'm wondering if there's something like trade tariffs too, as we can see it going the other way.  For example, Grymkin Hollow Men are cheaper than Intercessors in the US (RRP of $50 vs $60), but more expensive in the UK (RRP £43.75 vs £35).  I honestly don't know what the correct answer is - just a thought.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Firedrake Cordova

[Karhedron]

Currency conversion is a serious gripe as well. US have it horrible, with VAT included into the conversion rate. Australia and New Zealand have it worse, I think their predatory conversion rates are significantly immoral.

Part of it has to do with the fact that most models are manufactured in the UK meaning buying in other countries also includes the cost of shipping the models out there. I don't know how much this costs but it probably accounts for at least some of the difference. I notice that things manufactured in the US are usually a lot more expensive here in the UK. It is not uncommon for a product that sells for $X in the US to also sell for £X here in the UK. So it is not uncommon for products to enjoy a home-country advantage.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Karhedron

[Charlo]

One grievance I desperately need to air is...does GW know what a roadmap even is?

 

"Here are the next two codexes and after that it's a secret."

 

Tbf they did say it was a xenos codex...

[Dark Shepherd]

Books and toys were always exempt from US tarriffs when they entered from the EU, but the models are also made in the US I think?

 

Unless GW are super sleepy even if that changed (for books) they could just set up a company in Ireland that would be technically the exporter

 

Would a 5% discount for buying instore be crazy? Takes out shipping costs for them and encourages footfall. The problem with online conversion rates and not letting you pay in sterling and convert at checkout is they have to set instore prices.

 

If I buy 3rd party from UK I save as much on currency conversion by my bank as by their discoint

 

Pretty sure UK sales tax was the same as for European countries even though it wasnt set by the EU

[MysticTemplar]

 

 

Currency conversion is a serious gripe as well. US have it horrible, with VAT included into the conversion rate. Australia and New Zealand have it worse, I think their predatory conversion rates are significantly immoral.

I thought the same, but that's how it is with alot of stuff. Look at an American to Britain sale, Xbox games are currently $59.99 new in the U.S., and are £59.99 over seas (I looked at NHL 21 for an example). I'm grateful, I spend a whole hell of alot more on that hobby than this hobby so I'll take the wonky conversions haha.

 

The thing is America does not include sales tax. So there is a further 6+% cost on it, while the conversion rate obviously includes the UK taxes in it. So essentially we get double taxed, without paying two taxes.

 

As an example, for an order, I paid $50 + $4.55 for a MK IV kit and a pot of paint, for $55.55 total. But I still on top of the screwed conversion have to pay sales tax, so I really pay $58.37.

 

The same applies with said game, where there is no VAT equivalent computed in the cost of $59.99, so they have to add that. The problem with GW is that they include for Uk/Eu tax in their conversion, then add some, and then we have sales tax added on top of that inflated conversion.

 

While I was in Europe, it was something like a 33% reduction in price just to purchase the kits in the EU vs the US, and that's even with the EU rate over the UK rate. So, for example, purchasing an intercessor box is 35 pounds in the UK, but after the proprietary conversion rate and tax, US customers end up paying about 48-50 pounds for one box of intercessors.

 

Accounting for tax into that $60 US game and VAT in the EU, it should roughly translate to 60 Euros or so, so no real bs going on with conversion there.

 

 

To provide some quick math to back this up - the current conversion rate for USD to GBP is 1:0.77 - if you have a game that's $59.99 pretax in the US (all US prices are pretax, because tax varies wildly based on where you're buying things in the US), that's 46.19 GBP, * 1.2 for VAT which works out to 55.42 pounds -  a 4.57 pound increase, or roughly 8% in total.

 

Going the other direction on Warhammer miniatures, picking something basically at random on the webstore to compare, we have Ghazghkull Thraka at 42 pounds - given that UK prices are post VAT, this translates into a 35 pound pre-Tax price.  Converting that into USD based on the above numbers, we get a USD price of $45.45.  Ghazghkull Thraka on the US webstore is $65 US pretax - a 44% increase.

 

As a result, going by the listed prices, GW is treating its UDS prices like the conversion rate is closer to 1:.5 - I do expect some increase in price to cover the cost of shipping and distribution overseas from where you made it, but given the volume GW plainly does, this is a tad much, in my opinion.

 

Edit: The TL;DR version of this post is "Webstore prices are not directly comparable between the US and the UK because they represent different numbers.  It's worse than it looks like it is if you just compare those two numbers."

Edited November 4, 2020 by MysticTemplar

[Sky Potato]

 

Currency conversion is a serious gripe as well. US have it horrible, with VAT included into the conversion rate. Australia and New Zealand have it worse, I think their predatory conversion rates are significantly immoral.

Part of it has to do with the fact that most models are manufactured in the UK meaning buying in other countries also includes the cost of shipping the models out there. I don't know how much this costs but it probably accounts for at least some of the difference. I notice that things manufactured in the US are usually a lot more expensive here in the UK. It is not uncommon for a product that sells for $X in the US to also sell for £X here in the UK. So it is not uncommon for products to enjoy a home-country advantage.

This.

 

$1000 iPhones are also £1000.

 

There’s massive home advantage in almost every sector of retail.

[Ahzek451]

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

 

Which is what you ultimately end up always seeing on table. While limited or no choice I feel for converting is liberating because but virtue of only one option every conversion is legal and easy for the opponent to understand what that unit actually has while not stifling choice based on based table performance

But my Captain, didn't come out looking like everyone else's Captain, and the GW Approved 'art' that oddly enough looks exactly the same as all of our Captains.

 

Minmax rules? Agreed, always gonna happen.

 

Paint by numbers design and art? Was never as bad as it is now.

 

Looking over the Necron dex was so demotivating.

 

The new necron codex is pretty bad as far as new narrative goes. Gone are the unit description sections dedicated to a page each. And despite a teasure trove of new stuff via the silent king, new units, new dynasty, the pariah stuff, there is really not much in the way of narrative for any of it. I am not sure what GW is doing with this. I even miss those pages with short blurbs detailing interactions with other races. 

[Xenith]

 

Sadly, old Greybeards like me are not GW's core market. The biggest contribution I have probably made to GW's balance sheet in the last 5 years has been getting my kids into 40K. They have spent quite a bit more than me.

 

 

So because you like GW's games, you got 2 more people to spend a lot of money on GW stuff? Seems like you're a target/ideal customer!

 

So skimmed the thread but one thing: this gonna sound weird but in my opanion, monopose/one weapon option kits are a converters paradise. For example:

 

If I play a Primaris Marshall, only Melee Options w/o PlasPistol was a PowSword. So even if modeled w/ LClaw he has a PowSword fof ruled purposes. PreIndomitus if I want go give a Primaris Marshall a Shield cause “Cool” I could because it means nothing. Sense its not an armament and he only has three loadouts.

 

So in terms of gear access, one option units are actually imho a converters paradiss cause no matter how your converted model is armed its only one legal option regardless. Once you start adding heavily divergent loadouts like we are starting to see with Primaris Captains which have some options if not many. This concept begins to fall apart sense its no longer “okay he actually has that regardless of appearance” and more like “what does he actually have?”

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

 

 

Counter intuitive, but I agree totally. When people are asking for customisable captains, could GW have simply solved this problem by releasing a captain with jump pack, TH&SS? because that's the only damn loadout (barring relics) I've seen on captains in 8th. I also recall lots of Dante conversions with swords, etc, to fit their chapters background, because everyone knew it actually counted as the Axe. 

 

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

 

Which is what you ultimately end up always seeing on table. While limited or no choice I feel for converting is liberating because but virtue of only one option every conversion is legal and easy for the opponent to understand what that unit actually has while not stifling choice based on based table performance

But my Captain, didn't come out looking like everyone else's Captain, and the GW Approved 'art' that oddly enough looks exactly the same as all of our Captains.

 

Minmax rules? Agreed, always gonna happen.

 

Paint by numbers design and art? Was never as bad as it is now.

 

Looking over the Necron dex was so demotivating.

 

 

So the goal is to convert a captain, and that;s why you want a MPK...but you refuse to convert the monopose model? There's absolutely no reason for everyone's gravis captain to look the same. If you make it straight out ofthe box, then that's a conscious decision. 

 

I would point that my disgruntlement with GW and their approach to characters is fairly wasteful. I personally don't know why we don't have "character" boxes where the box builds 2-3 characters with various options. 

 

Like the primaris captain box? (choice of weapons and sword)

Dark angels captain (choice of weapons)

New gravis captain will also probably come with a choice of heavy standard auto or stalker bolt rifles. 

 

I'll agree that there aren't nearly enough of these, though. 

[Gederas]

Sadly, old Greybeards like me are not GW's core market. The biggest contribution I have probably made to GW's balance sheet in the last 5 years has been getting my kids into 40K. They have spent quite a bit more than me.

So because you like GW's games, you got 2 more people to spend a lot of money on GW stuff? Seems like you're a target/ideal customer!

 

So skimmed the thread but one thing: this gonna sound weird but in my opanion, monopose/one weapon option kits are a converters paradise. For example:

 

If I play a Primaris Marshall, only Melee Options w/o PlasPistol was a PowSword. So even if modeled w/ LClaw he has a PowSword fof ruled purposes. PreIndomitus if I want go give a Primaris Marshall a Shield cause “Cool” I could because it means nothing. Sense its not an armament and he only has three loadouts.

 

So in terms of gear access, one option units are actually imho a converters paradiss cause no matter how your converted model is armed its only one legal option regardless. Once you start adding heavily divergent loadouts like we are starting to see with Primaris Captains which have some options if not many. This concept begins to fall apart sense its no longer “okay he actually has that regardless of appearance” and more like “what does he actually have?”

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

Counter intuitive, but I agree totally. When people are asking for customisable captains, could GW have simply solved this problem by releasing a captain with jump pack, TH&SS? because that's the only damn loadout (barring relics) I've seen on captains in 8th. I also recall lots of Dante conversions with swords, etc, to fit their chapters background, because everyone knew it actually counted as the Axe. 

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

 

Which is what you ultimately end up always seeing on table. While limited or no choice I feel for converting is liberating because but virtue of only one option every conversion is legal and easy for the opponent to understand what that unit actually has while not stifling choice based on based table performance

But my Captain, didn't come out looking like everyone else's Captain, and the GW Approved 'art' that oddly enough looks exactly the same as all of our Captains.

 

Minmax rules? Agreed, always gonna happen.

 

Paint by numbers design and art? Was never as bad as it is now.

 

Looking over the Necron dex was so demotivating.

So the goal is to convert a captain, and that;s why you want a MPK...but you refuse to convert the monopose model? There's absolutely no reason for everyone's gravis captain to look the same. If you make it straight out ofthe box, then that's a conscious decision. 

 

I would point that my disgruntlement with GW and their approach to characters is fairly wasteful. I personally don't know why we don't have "character" boxes where the box builds 2-3 characters with various options.

Like the primaris captain box? (choice of weapons and sword)

Dark angels captain (choice of weapons)

New gravis captain will also probably come with a choice of heavy standard auto or stalker bolt rifles. 

 

I'll agree that there aren't nearly enough of these, though.

There's no Multipart Gravis Captain available Xenith. Aside from Tor Garadon, and not everyone wants to file off moulded detail.

 

And no, the new Gravis Captain will only come with the Heavy Bolt Rifle and sword because that's all that's on his datasheet. I doubt that model will even come with options to make the standard Gravis Captain

Edited November 4, 2020 by Gederas

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

I'm probably in the minority here insofar as I no longer play 40K (I find the Specialist Games range are better games), but I was always in it for the models and background, and picked their equipment based on background, and "rule of cool". For example, being a Salamanders player, my captain has a bolter-flamer and relic blade (modelled as a power hammer), a few of the sergeants have power mauls (modelled as hammers), and you'll see Tactical squads with multi-meltas, too.

And? That exactly my point. If a Sgt only option is Power Sword and BoltRifle. You could just to give whatever you wanted to it. Because that only legal option. If only “special” is AuxLauncher, giving a Cessor a MultiMelta or whatever as part of the model doesn’t matter. Sense its an AuxLauncher.

 

And for not wanting to take apart a Gravis Cpt, I used an Aggressor for my build.

[Firedrake Cordova]

Books and toys were always exempt from US tarriffs when they entered from the EU, but the models are also made in the US I think?

Bah.  I thought they might have been, although I might have been confusing them with brushes (which are subject to import tariffs from, what I've read).

 

Pretty sure UK sales tax was the same as for European countries even though it wasnt set by the EU

The rate of VAT generally varies between 17% and 26% depending on which EU country you're looking at (it leads to some cross-border complexities, as you're supposed to charge the prevailing rate of VAT for the customer's domicile).

 

And? That exactly my point. If a Sgt only option is Power Sword and BoltRifle. You could just to give whatever you wanted to it. Because that only legal option. If only “special” is AuxLauncher, giving a Cessor a MultiMelta or whatever as part of the model doesn’t matter. Sense its an AuxLauncher.

Actually, that is divergent from what I was trying to get across.  When collecting an army, beyond "it must be game-legal", my only concerns are that the models I get are ones which I like and which fit in with the background, and that attitude extends to their equipment - in-game performance isn't a consideration for me.  Given that I stick with WYSIWYG (to avoid confusing people - even if you can only legally give a model an auxiliary grenade launcher, one toting a multi-melta is going to get a few double-takes), I'm sure that leads to some questionable choices in terms of in-game efficiency.

 

Not trying to say your approach is wrong, mind, just that some people have different approaches to the hobby (and that's what makes things interesting).

Edited November 4, 2020 by Firedrake Cordova

[Schlitzaf]

Fair point Drake, but really what I am saying only really applicable to character models. GenericDudeBros are slightly harder.

[Dark Shepherd]

I only remember the Irish one and it was the same or lower

 

And they just announce a free promotional model per month from GW stores

[MegaVolt87]

GW is set on keeping any savings gained via production changes, market movement etc while passing close to 100% of the costs of business to the customer, they then set the desired profit post tax, then mark up AGAIN for tax. Then places are double taxed because VAT is there, then the relevant nations tax on top to customers there. It's not a sustainable model long term IMO. They could knock off 20% off their direct store/website RRP tomorrow and still make a good profit, heck maybe more as sales volume can increase with such a price cut.

[Dark Shepherd]

I think youre right about the long term price increases, theyre in danger of trying to milk every penny out of an existing customer base rather than expanding it.

 

Right now lots of people are at home more often, bored, and theres A LOT of new Marine releases. But all that cant be relied on longer term

[Prot]

 

Sooner or later the cost of the hobby is going to outweigh the fun it can provide, or GW will make some final bad decision that pushes all of the loyal old guard away for good.

The old guard do not make up the bulk of GW's customers because we already have armies and just buy the odd new unit when it comes out. The majority of GW's income comes from new players who are building up a complete army from scratch. Second are existing players who start a new faction. These players spend far more money in a short space of time than the old guard do.

 

Sadly, old Greybeards like me are not GW's core market. The biggest contribution I have probably made to GW's balance sheet in the last 5 years has been getting my kids into 40K. They have spent quite a bit more than me.

 

 

As someone who has collected, painted, sold, and rebought no less than 20 armies (minimum 2000 points - 5000 points each) over the past 2 decades, I'd have to disagree. ;)

 

I look forward to every new 40K release, each version of the game has come with negatives and positives. 

 

Trying to be honest here... I've only (very) recently hit a wall with price hikes. I used to be collecting half a dozen armies at once. I'd buy every codex (thinking back to the 20 dollar days). I do believe that has been taken away from me now. Inevitably, they will hit a price hike ceiling of diminishing returns.

 

It's easy to be negative, but instead I have said the same thing for years and years (it's been said earlier in the thread) ... we vote with our wallets. It's really our only say. They may say otherwise, but that has not been my experience. 

 

 

This does feel like a different era. Maybe it results in GW hitting the reset button a bit, standing back and needing to change a few things?

[tychobi]

I am another old grey beard who has been priced out of the game I love.

[RandomMarine]

So im a grey beard to but I've played marines of some flavour since I was 16 and have 3 different IH armies ,30k,oldmarines and a pure primaris one all easily in the 4000 pts range . I am finding that I'm buying less with each release i only bought the codex and 2 tech marines this time. However the money i would have spent on 40k has been spent on the smaller Specialist games like underworlds and necromunda. Its like any hobby when your a adult its expensive because your paying the bills aswell as for the hobby. Into football upto £5000 season ticket, into golf £500-700 for a decent set of clubs plus course fees,into rocks really interesting rocks are expensive. . Edited November 5, 2020 by RandomMarine

[Lucerne]

Recast ideally help keep GW motivated.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Recasting is piracy.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Sure it is, but what if I really want those DKoK Grenadiers?

[Dark Shepherd]

I feel for xenos/non marine players here. Theres definitely been an oversaturation of Primaris

 

Plus theres a catch 22 of big marine releases sell the best but how do they sell anything else then? And how often can they keep going back to the same well?

[Scribe]

Recasting is piracy.

Arrr.

 

When stuff can't even be bought anymore though?

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

I'm probably in the minority here insofar as I no longer play 40K (I find the Specialist Games range are better games), but I was always in it for the models and background, and picked their equipment based on background, and "rule of cool". For example, being a Salamanders player, my captain has a bolter-flamer and relic blade (modelled as a power hammer), a few of the sergeants have power mauls (modelled as hammers), and you'll see Tactical squads with multi-meltas, too.

And? That exactly my point. If a Sgt only option is Power Sword and BoltRifle. You could just to give whatever you wanted to it. Because that only legal option. If only “special” is AuxLauncher, giving a Cessor a MultiMelta or whatever as part of the model doesn’t matter. Sense its an AuxLauncher.

 

And for not wanting to take apart a Gravis Cpt, I used an Aggressor for my build.

But that approach assumes your opponent is familiar with the rules and options for the unit. Unless you know that the multi-Melta is a stand in for the grenade launcher because you know that’s what the units can take then when you see a multi-Melta you’re going to assume it’s a multi-Melta. It’d also be confusing in a space marine army as that army has lots of units that can genuinely take multi-meltas so your opponent could be looking at a devastator squad and an eradicator squad that have real multi-meltas but an intercessor squad whose multi-Melta is really a grenade launcher.

 

With these kind of things it’s easy to assume people know marine units and their rules but not everyone will. If you’re not a marine player you may not have any idea what new toys they were given in the new codex. And even if someone took the time to explain what weapons were what at the start of a match I still wouldn’t be happy playing against an army where I had to remember which hammers were really hammers and which were chainswords or similar.