GW and their recent approaches

[Cpt_Reaper]

Volt, I do not beleive that is the correct course of action. Moreso I do not feel that is the morally right course of action. I do not want to cut GW out of their product until we have given them a chance to fix their practices. Warhammer is their product, we are their customers.

 

If, after the community tells GW that we do not consider their actions to be in our best interest they state they will continue to act as such or do not reply at all then yes, we should stop supporting them wholesale.

 

Until that happens I find it at the very least quetionable how you can support such a course as you have suggested. If we resorted to fan-made rules and models the game WILL die. The community couldn't make a ruleset that pleases anyone.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Cpt_Reaper

[MegaVolt87]

The whole argument about weapons choice is outside the OP since this ‘issue’ is nothing new while the discussion is supposed to be about recent things.

 

So, the new SM codex that just released that doubles down on an issue you acknowledge that has happened in the past and continues to happen NOW in the just released 9th ed SM codex isn't recent then? Sorry if a past issue is still unresolved, especially when the new codex had the opportunity to fix it, the old issue is now a new issue again even if its what happened initially.

 

Is never been an issue for me, I remember being very excited to get the Primaris Captain with a power fist and plasma pistol. Is easy to kitbash as well. Just take a firstborn Captain if you just has to have an axe or claw.

 

Oh, so its not a problem for you so everyone else should deal. Got it. That's the kind of attitude that steers people who wish to embrace new ideas away because its just inferior to what they originally had in the hobby. You are just doubling down by being too narrow minded and inconsiderate of others views. Many wish to embrace change but its not easy when small things like mono load-out characters etc and other small issues pile up in the game. We are customers and for whatever reason, GW thinks its still ok to sell us what they want or what they think we want, instead of what we actually want and wish to buy. I can't think of any other recreational activity that treats customers like this. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Remember what I said you can always take firstborn Captain .

[Scribe]

Bryan summed up the insanity of it. The fact of the matter is that this absolute lock in to This Exact Model and Rules Combo is just sucking the soul out of the play side for me.

 

I REALLY wanted to get back into it with necrons, but this whole forced upgrade or unit build :cuss just kills me.

[Cpt_Reaper]

You can take a firstborn captain. For now. That option won't be there forever, it may not even last through 9th Edtion. And the issue is Primaris Captains having less features than the unit they will replace.

 

"Just take Firstborn" is the same as "just homebrew it". It's not an answer, it's a dismissal of someone else's issue.

[chapter master 454]

Black Blow Fly, as the OP of this thread the main intention was to let people air their grievances in a thread for it really instead of these issues de-railing or possibly closing a thread due to it igniting some sort of flame war between two fraters. The scope of this thread is not limited to what you seem to think and your dismissal of the argument relating to why Primaris captains are limited seems fairly negative.

 

This doesn't just apply to captains. It applies to the Primaris Chaplains, Librarian, the new Techmarine and Lieutenants. In fact, Lieutenants for Primaris took as step back as they split the datasheet for two models, each model being a unique datasheet. There can be arguments also asked of why do Primaris not have a command squad option? They have an ancient and apothecary but no champion or company veteran squad. Further to that, why did GW go backwards with how the models are assembled by making them less compatiable with other kits? You could of easily had the legs be the old style but posed nicely, the arms could of been the old style and still posed nicely, you could still have the torsos as the old style and not lose any detail (if not, add detail actually). This further hurts primaris future endeavours are the only reason to buy more primaris past whatever amount of the unit you wanted is if something new comes along, they are a fairly "bought and complete" experience which may have strengths now but doesn't engender longer term sales. I will point out that during a visit to my warhammer shop back when the new codex came out for space marines, the manager told me he was selling out of firstborn kits rapidly and struggling to sell his primaris kits, stating the executioners aren't moving along with other kits yet the Firstborn kits were flying off shelves both from the buff and the fact they are just better option wise to take, Primaris are dead to rites due to how pigeon-holed they are and not in a good way.

 

This is also mounting on the lack of E-Pub files, multiple units and factions slowly getting squatted (death korp seem to be getting shown the door slowly) and that just touches on recent things.

 

We complain and whine and bemoan because we care. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here. If we didn't care, we would all blindly drop firstborn and salute the age of primaris. But we aren't going quietly into that good night. We as a community may be divided on the direction of the game but we are united in our love of it. We want to love it and see it continue. To see the legacy of things being stomped on or outright ignored is what we hate, after all...I don't think there would be a pleasant response if GW decided to just stop Primaris and just never support them again. Then again...they kind of already are. Gravis Captain may be a hiccup, but once is all you need for it to happen again...and then its just twice...thrice.

[Dark Shepherd]

A big problem, exasperated by Nurgles rot, is production is supposedly scheduled a year in advance so its very hard to react to things that come up/metashifts/demand, and theres probably no co ordinatiom with rules changes

 

A change Id love to see that MAY be happening is points changes/chapter approved happening twice a year. Huge if true etc

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would like to see them stick the fully updated, edited, FAQ'd rules in each chapter approved. The new spiral bound format is nice, would much prefer to be able to take that with me and not need the big rule book.

[Dark Shepherd]

I would like to see them stick the fully updated, edited, FAQ'd rules in each chapter approved. The new spiral bound format is nice, would much prefer to be able to take that with me and not need the big rule book.

Theyre going to start selling us binders

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I would like to see them stick the fully updated, edited, FAQ'd rules in each chapter approved. The new spiral bound format is nice, would much prefer to be able to take that with me and not need the big rule book.

Theyre going to start selling us binders

 

Only $50!

 

To be more serious, they were already like 90% there with the most recent CA. They should just put the remainder in and be done with it.

 

Same with the crusade book. It almost has the entire crusade rules, which is excellent. Except it's missing like one piece. Just put the whole thing in there. Why reprint all these rules everywhere if it still ends up making me reference back to the big book, it's pointless.

Edited November 17, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Dark Shepherd]

CA has everything except basic rules which are in app? (Their possible view not mine)

Anything else would be in ones (released) codex or datacards

 

Small scale reprint of basic rules in CA tournament pack would be good though

[Evil Eye]

You can take a firstborn captain. For now. That option won't be there forever, it may not even last through 9th Edtion. And the issue is Primaris Captains having less features than the unit they will replace.

 

"Just take Firstborn" is the same as "just homebrew it". It's not an answer, it's a dismissal of someone else's issue.

I highly, highly doubt that. If Firstborn were being phased out as the doomcriers keep saying, they wouldn't have bothered overhauling their statlines and rules for 9th. And even if they do get moved out of the main Codex (which is extremely unlikely unless they bring out an entire new Codex mid-edition that strips out the Firstborn for some daft reason) the Legends rules will still be 100% useable unless you absolutely insist on playing in tournaments, which contrary to popular belief are not a good yardstick to measure regular 40K by.

 

And honestly? "Just homebrew it" isn't the worst solution. People have been homebrewing rules for wargames since wargames have been a thing. There's a reason fandexes, custom scenarios and entire fanmade rulesets exist. Unless you play exclusively in tournaments or GW stores (and even the latter can be flexible depending on who runs it) there's literally nothing to stop you and your group using homebrew rules if you want. The GWstapo aren't going to turn up at your door and drag you into the night for daring to run a Primaris Captain with a power maul.

 

Whilst I don't subscribe to the "Let's boycott GW until they do what we want" philosophy (as quite aside from anything else, opinion on how to make 40K better is extremely myopic, and with how certain vocal minorities can be it wouldn't go well at all), I do find it a bit silly to let GW dictate to you exactly how you have fun with your toy soldiers. Not to say you have to forsake GW entirely and shun everything they make- that's just daft- but if you're not enjoying an aspect of the rules? Discuss it with your group and do something about it. There's a happy middle ground to be had between "Play the game exactly as per the rules in the book" and "Reject GW and their product in their entirety".

 

It's a hobby, not a religion.

[Bung]

@Evil Eye

Not everyone is willing to use homebrew rules.

As someone who was years dependant on pick up games in stores etc. i never had good experienced with homemade stuff. Especially if it came up after the game started.

 

The problem is it was rather easy to convert the old Marines and you had rules you could use without discussion. It was mostly a failure of internal unbalance that only Smash Captains were Seen in the table.

And its not only Marines. Dark Eldar suffered at first after the change from 5th to 6th Edition.

 

Thats what me keeps investing in 30k. Was better customisation Options to make it my army and models and not paintjob #579 of the same Marine model.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Never try to bring up any home brew rules after a game has started. That will not be well received.

[MegaVolt87]

Homebrew rules are meant to be a fun side distraction to regular gameplay. Not a tool the community should have to resort to using due to the failures of the GW game devs. I have to buy a main rulebook, a codex, a yearly (maybe even twice a year now) Chapter approved and any other supplements like PA etc to play. If I pay that much money for something I expect I shouldn't have to homebrew anything to play a standard tabletop game. If anyone has to resort to homebrew to play the normal game, the rules have failed and should be corrected, either free or in one of the CA's I pay for promptly. If we must homebrew and that's the answer, well I expect the rules to be free because its now my/ our job to fix them and that's something we should no longer have to pay for. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

I highly, highly doubt that. If Firstborn were being phased out as the doomcriers keep saying, they wouldn't have bothered overhauling their statlines and rules for 9th. And even if they do get moved out of the main Codex (which is extremely unlikely unless they bring out an entire new Codex mid-edition that strips out the Firstborn for some daft reason) the Legends rules will still be 100% useable unless you absolutely insist on playing in tournaments, which contrary to popular belief are not a good yardstick to measure regular 40K by.

 

 

We keep "doomcrying" because it will happen. The second Primaris were intordruced a timer started. Firstborn will be removed, else why bother making Marines 2.0? I personally am willing to bet than when Codex Space marines 9th Editon V2 comes out we weill see it happen, and if not then it will definitely occur during 10th Edtion.

As for Legends, I have yet to find a group that allows Legends. Once it goes there, it doesn't exist. If your group allows it, great but where I play the two major player circles have a hard "no Legends" rule.

 

And honestly? "Just homebrew it" isn't the worst solution. People have been homebrewing rules for wargames since wargames have been a thing. There's a reason fandexes, custom scenarios and entire fanmade rulesets exist. Unless you play exclusively in tournaments or GW stores (and even the latter can be flexible depending on who runs it) there's literally nothing to stop you and your group using homebrew rules if you want. The GWstapo aren't going to turn up at your door and drag you into the night for daring to run a Primaris Captain with a power maul.

 

Have you ever seen those fandexes or rulesets played? If you have has there been a massive rush to adopt it over the official product? You can't run a Primaris Captain with a power maul because it is an illegal loadout. It's that simple. However, GW can fix this if we let them know our displeasure.

 

Whilst I don't subscribe to the "Let's boycott GW until they do what we want" philosophy (as quite aside from anything else, opinion on how to make 40K better is extremely myopic, and with how certain vocal minorities can be it wouldn't go well at all), I do find it a bit silly to let GW dictate to you exactly how you have fun with your toy soldiers. Not to say you have to forsake GW entirely and shun everything they make- that's just daft- but if you're not enjoying an aspect of the rules? Discuss it with your group and do something about it. There's a happy middle ground to be had between "Play the game exactly as per the rules in the book" and "Reject GW and their product in their entirety".

 

Of course they can dictate how their rules work. It's their rules! What I am proposing is that the community provides a vocal and well written response that their current ruleset and design philosphy is not conductive to an enjoyable product. I do not, and I assume 99.99% of players do not want, to see GW go under and warhammer die. What I want is for GW to get over the past and start fixing the game so there will be a future for it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I highly doubt geedub will drop firstborn any time soon and to say so is purely hearsay .

[Scribe]

Soon is relative. Last new unit of original marines? Pre Primaris I believe.

 

It's a done range. That's all there is to it.

[Cpt_Reaper]

It is not hearsay as I didn't hear it. It is my informed opinion. Informed by the very existance of Primaris. There is only room for Primaris or Firstborn, and Firstborn haven't gotten anything new since the first primaris model came out. Updating their datasheets is the most minimal of things, literally changing the Wounds value to 2.

 

You can even quote me on this. Firstborn will be gone by the close of 10th Edition, if not sooner.

 

But, and i must stress this, that isn't my issue. My issue if the replacements not having the same freedom of choice. And that goes for every faction. We have pre-baked loadouts now, not wargear choices. So once again, how do we let GW know that isn't what the community wants?

 

I keep asking the same question and I don't get an answer to my question. This thread will just keep chasing it's tail.

[MegaVolt87]

I highly doubt geedub will drop firstborn any time soon and to say so is purely hearsay .

 

Even if they are not, GW are not behaving in a way that shows it. Too many little things are piling up that say otherwise rightly or wrongly. Rubiconed characters completely replace their first born iterations both in model and rules, 1:1 equivalents of units eg. predator/gladiator and no new first born SM releases or re-sculpts for a long time. The OG firstborn chaplain on bike could have gotten a re-sculpt, instead it's model was discontinued, it went to legends and we got a primaris chaplain on bike instead. Everyone loves chaplins, a re-sculpted old marine one would have sold just as well, both could have been easily accommodated but they were not. Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern- and we have exceeded three separate instances of this trend happening at this point. Even if old marines never get the axe as you say, there is enough going on to make people nervous and that is a solid truth. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

An informed opinion is just that and wow this has gone super OT.... bring out your rants here lol !

[MegaVolt87]

An informed opinion is just that and wow this has gone super OT.... bring out your rants here lol !

 

I see more along the lines of conductive discussion and argument/ counter argument. Its clear someone is still only contributing snappy one liners to such discussions of limited value to the OT (original topic) itself. I wonder who that is. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Cpt_Reaper]

Hey, no need to counter snappiness with snappiness. We are all passionate about this hobby, and it can cause us to react in ways that might not be taken as we intend them, or the correct intention causes a bit of discomfort we didn't mean.

 

I am super lucky that I have 5(ish) armies. The thing that hurts are the armies I play aither aren't trated well by GW or are treated too well by GW and thus not loved by the community.

• Dark Angels (Diy Successor)
• Chaos Marines (DiY iron Warriors Warband)
• Grey Knights (not touched since 5th edtion)
• Dark Eldar (Ditto)
• Astra Militarum

This naturally causes me a lot of frustration which I unfortunately cannot always keep out of my arguments. For that I apologise.

[NovemberIX]

It is not hearsay as I didn't hear it. It is my informed opinion. Informed by the very existance of Primaris. There is only room for Primaris or Firstborn, and Firstborn haven't gotten anything new since the first primaris model came out. Updating their datasheets is the most minimal of things, literally changing the Wounds value to 2.

 

You can even quote me on this. Firstborn will be gone by the close of 10th Edition, if not sooner.

 

But, and i must stress this, that isn't my issue. My issue if the replacements not having the same freedom of choice. And that goes for every faction. We have pre-baked loadouts now, not wargear choices.

"that's just like, your opinion, man" I too have an informed opinion, but mine plays different. We'll eventually see a seperation between Primaris Marines and Classic Marines, maybe it'll be dual codexes, maybe Space Marines get relegated to a "historical" game type with cross over rules, I can't say, but my opinion is that Primaris will end up being an "entry level" army. Restricted options, poses and lists to appeal to consumers who freeze up when faced with choice. Which leaves classic marines to have a stealth scale up in a few years, their models might not ever be as dynamic, but they'll have modularity, posability, and variety on their side. By which time, all those people who replaced their classic squating Space Marine with Primaris will want to buy the new hot upscaled firstborne and their MkIII-MkVIII armor that can all be kit bashed together, with all those formerly legends only options coming back into the fold. But then again, this is "just like, my opinion, man".

 

 

 

So once again, how do we let GW know that isn't what the community wants?

 

By talking about it, discussing it, and coming to a consensus so that when the next community survey comes out, a plurality of people can bring up the issues being presented here.

 

 

I see more along the lines of conductive discussion and argument/ counter argument. Its clear someone is still only contributing snappy one liners to such discussions of limited value to the OT (original topic) itself. I wonder who that is. 

 

 

I sometimes wonder if certain posters contributions are less about adding to discourse, and more to pad their post count, as they certainly take more than their fair share of swings at the target.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Geedub had a survey last year to which I responded and I went into quite a bit of detail regarding a desire for more customization of the Primaris line. Sure I’d love more options too. I noticed that heavy intercessors have an option for a heavy weapon so maybe geedub is slowly responding. I like to use some firstborn units as well especially terminators which in my opinion is an iconic unit.