GW and their recent approaches

[MegaVolt87]

 

Recasting is piracy.

Arrr.

 

When stuff can't even be bought anymore though?

 

 

This is one of my favourite soapboxes, what is piracy in the face of unused/ discontinued copyrights/ patents/ products etc. TLDR- agreed and best leave this one open ended IMO for this thread. 

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

 

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

I'm probably in the minority here insofar as I no longer play 40K (I find the Specialist Games range are better games), but I was always in it for the models and background, and picked their equipment based on background, and "rule of cool". For example, being a Salamanders player, my captain has a bolter-flamer and relic blade (modelled as a power hammer), a few of the sergeants have power mauls (modelled as hammers), and you'll see Tactical squads with multi-meltas, too.

And? That exactly my point. If a Sgt only option is Power Sword and BoltRifle. You could just to give whatever you wanted to it. Because that only legal option. If only “special” is AuxLauncher, giving a Cessor a MultiMelta or whatever as part of the model doesn’t matter. Sense its an AuxLauncher.

 

And for not wanting to take apart a Gravis Cpt, I used an Aggressor for my build.

But that approach assumes your opponent is familiar with the rules and options for the unit. Unless you know that the multi-Melta is a stand in for the grenade launcher because you know that’s what the units can take then when you see a multi-Melta you’re going to assume it’s a multi-Melta. It’d also be confusing in a space marine army as that army has lots of units that can genuinely take multi-meltas so your opponent could be looking at a devastator squad and an eradicator squad that have real multi-meltas but an intercessor squad whose multi-Melta is really a grenade launcher.

 

With these kind of things it’s easy to assume people know marine units and their rules but not everyone will. If you’re not a marine player you may not have any idea what new toys they were given in the new codex. And even if someone took the time to explain what weapons were what at the start of a match I still wouldn’t be happy playing against an army where I had to remember which hammers were really hammers and which were chainswords or similar.

I’d wouldn’t really do it generic/non-character models to be frank. But same token this is “not this multi melta is actually auxlauncher”, “the model in this aquad whose weapon is not just a bolter is the units cool weapon”.

 

But by extension becauss Cessors can take THammers I wouldn’t be doing this. If Cessors only melee optjon was a PowSword I would.

[Beta galactosidase]

Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

 

Which is what you ultimately end up always seeing on table. While limited or no choice I feel for converting is liberating because but virtue of only one option every conversion is legal and easy for the opponent to understand what that unit actually has while not stifling choice based on based table performance

Yes, you never saw for example Needle of Desire or Kai Gun. The 2002 chaos books was the most option rich codex in modern 40k and yet among all the weapons there was one in first place by miles, one in second place, and then the others were nearly never used.

 

From a modeling perspective I’d like it if all special ccws above chainsword were just called “macro weapons” and had the same rules as each other so I could model whatever I wanted without bothering with rules or points, and also so there would be more model variety on the table.

[Bryan Blaire]

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

Schlitzaf, you can stand by your opinion, but its bollocks. Just because you view "converters" as power gaming, you're flat out wrong - 90% of wanting to convert is absolutely not to have the flavor of the month (had to look that up) - "fotm" is partially what magnets are for, not converting. If you are taking the time to actually convert your models, rebuild parts you've had to hack off to get them to look the way you want, make cosmetic upgrades to your models, etc., you are very likely not redoing that every month/year to chase the meta - you might be sorta mental to actually do that.

 

I have numerous models that have sat on the shelf, partially built, due to a lack of the wanted options for them to make them flavorful to the appearance of my armies. I have also converted up my own Hounds of Morkai and they will definitely see the table because they are a cool fluff unit IMO, even though everyone thinks they are terrible/a waste of an Elite space, and since they have no-nothing combat knives, I've taken the liberty to give them no-nothing axes instead, because like combat knives, axes do nothing (they aren't chain axes, they aren't power axes, they don't exist in the game, so there's nothing to complain about).

 

Because GW has never given the flavorful options I have been hoping for on some models, I am going to instead model them with other flavorful options, but honestly, not every Chapter necessarily has that ability - I'd love to see a "shield wall" of Bladeguard Vets with power spears/tridents for the Spears of the Emperor, but unless someone has converted every single power sword to a power spear/trident, then it would potentially be somewhat confusing to see, especially in a competitive environment - the spear/trident would only be saved because they haven't actually given those rules. However, a Gravis Wolf Lord with a Frost Axe or even axe Relic is currently impossible. Similarly, a Primaris Salamander Captain with a thunder hammer and bolt carbine is also impossible. Neither would be a power gaming option, yet someone may want to have just those things. However, either could be confusing for an unfamiliar opponent to the point of not wanting to play against them because you can't actually make those things and GW does have rules for both power/frost/relic axes, thunder hammers, and bolt carbines, so you can't make the argument "Those don't exist so it doesn't matter."

 

But that approach assumes your opponent is familiar with the rules and options for the unit. Unless you know that the multi-Melta is a stand in for the grenade launcher because you know that’s what the units can take then when you see a multi-Melta you’re going to assume it’s a multi-Melta. It’d also be confusing in a space marine army as that army has lots of units that can genuinely take multi-meltas so your opponent could be looking at a devastator squad and an eradicator squad that have real multi-meltas but an intercessor squad whose multi-Melta is really a grenade launcher.

 

With these kind of things it’s easy to assume people know marine units and their rules but not everyone will. If you’re not a marine player you may not have any idea what new toys they were given in the new codex. And even if someone took the time to explain what weapons were what at the start of a match I still wouldn’t be happy playing against an army where I had to remember which hammers were really hammers and which were chainswords or similar.

I think this has a lot more to do with the environment you regularly play in. If you regularly play against the same few people with the same proxy/converted/counts-as model each time, it probably isn't going to be as big an issue, especially if it's only one item of its kind or a bare few.

 

If you regularly play pick-up games against unknown persons in a game store or are playing tournaments, it would likely become a much bigger issue - and the tournament might have its own rules against it.

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

One grievance I desperately need to air is...does GW know what a roadmap even is?

 

"Here are the next two codexes and after that it's a secret."

 

Tbf they did say it was a xenos codex...

 

 

That's not a road map. "One Xenos and One Imperial Codex". Well they said Dark Angels would come out alongside the first Xenos dex, so if it's not Dark Angels they lied. but a roadmap isn't "Vague hint of what the next books are" it's GW telling their customers what the next quarter or more of releases are for 40k and when they are planned for release. The fact GW somehow gets away with this is infuriating.

 

As I said, knowing when your army is being done is much better in the long term. GW need to stop holding the cards so close to their chest.

 

The thing that stands out to me is we’ve had how many Marine releases in the last 4 years compared to how many xenos releases in the same or double the timeframe?

 

Orks got two substantial releases the last decade, tau had one, DE got a rework, and now Necrons finally had a redo.

 

In that time the marine range doubled with Primaris, had how many codices and supplement upgrades and in-edition buffs. Poor Eldar still have half their army in fine cast and Guard still have ‘03 models as their core.

 

I'll be that guy:

 

I do not care. Eldar and Tau can rot, and I play Dark Eldar.

 

Space Marines have the rare opportunity of having both a range redo (let's face it, that's what they are getting, just really drawn out) and good rules to back it up. But TauDar players conveniently forget their armies were, for nearly two full editions, not just the best codexes in the META butcould wipe the floor with the next most powerful flavour of the week.

You tell me Orks or Tyranids need a full range rework and rules overhaul I'll invite you over for a cold beverage so we can discuss at length what can be done to bring these armies back to their glory days or, if some local players are to be believed, give them glory days.

You say Tau or Eldar need anything ,be it rules or models I'll say Guardians and Aspect Warriors need plastics but Tau need and deserve nothing, and neither need good rules.

 

All I ever hear is "too many Space Marines" but when I bring up being tabled turn 1 or 2 by Xenos for nearly two full editions it gets ignored. We need a full Chaos range that matches the Imperial choices (traitor guard, World Eaters and Emperor's Children taken out and given their own books and a supplement for each Legion for the core book) and Orks and Tyranids need an update. Tau and Eldar do not.

[chapter master 454]

Some serious on the sleeve perspective there Reaper, however I will comment that you do need to keep some elements in mind.

 

 Eldar actually encompass also Harlequins. Tau communities actually are also sick of the fact that their only viable lists are all the same thing with no variance (even in Taudar, it was triple stormsurge or bust at minimum) and that still continues to today with Triptide being an issue.

 To Speak as a Tau player, Tau have a vast range of awesome models and units with great lore just like your Dark Eldar do but due to their neglected position actually only have 1, maybe 2, viable lists to slug it out with. Unless you are a Tau player who LOVES riptides then you aren't going to be happy with the faction which one tricks so hard to Triptide and the Drum kit special of shield drones, you are going to have a bad time despite the fact they have multiple cool units from the Ghostkeel and Stealth Suits to the various flavour of auxiliary units that not only get neglected but are getting slowly phased out by GW asking why people still like them. I will also state that they are just as in need of some looking at just like Tyranids and Orks who are similar in needing tune ups who I will say, I was not happy the days of Ork Nob bikerz just charging me all free editions past ether but:

 The Crimes of the Father do not pass down to the son.

 

Condemning a faction purely from past editions is not the right way to go about things and ends up with a cycle of perpetual distaste at all states of play. You can have your hated factions (like how I hate Eldar) but that doesn't colour my opinion of what they deserve. They deserve to be fun but yet are continuously made top tier and if not, very competitive in many forms. Eldar have never had a format where they were bottom tier or even mid tier to my knowledge, always top tier of some kind. Then you see some armies pop in and out of existence like a daemon in a grey knight purging on a daemon planet, showing up with only one trick before that gets murdered and removed from existence. For all the hate TauDar may get, it was a list; not the factions.

 

To be honest, there is a list longer than the back log of reports to be done by the adminstratum of 40k lore that GW could do before marines and of thoses you listed by a mere handful. Tau auxiliary expansion is one, Eldar seeing a range update (and may I add, your dark eldar got a range update BEFORE eldar), creating up-to-date lines of the Imperial Guard regiments such as the Steel legion, First-Born, Jungle Fighters, Iron Guard not to mention proper plastic of the Death Korps and Drop Troopers. Creating models for options they keep ignoring despite there being lore for and many others. However GW knows what prints money and marines print money. Sadly Chaos for some reason doesn't get noticed enough, maybe wait until your boy Bile steals the secret Primaris juice and maybe then chaos may see a resurgence.

 

However if wishes were fishes the world would be an ocean. The "too many space marines" is accurate, we enter 9th and out of question how many months do we go before there is even a chance of no space marines that are loyal? 3 Months? 4 if you count the dark angels as loyal :P and all the while we would of had only 2 xenos books and of ALL those releases the bulk is purely expansion books for various sub-factions of the loyal space marines. Us space marine players asked for some good support...now we are drowning in it. Game feels like the Horus Heresy game system because we are playing (or...if we could we would be) playing nothing but power armour.

 

I personally would love to see GW take a big move and over the next year or two just not even give marines as much spotlight and really hammer out some massive xenos and chaos pieces. 

[Schlitzaf]

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

Schlitzaf, you can stand by your opinion, but its bollocks. Just because you view "converters" as power gaming, you're flat out wrong - 90% of wanting to convert is absolutely not to have the flavor of the month (had to look that up) - "fotm" is partially what magnets are for, not converting. If you are taking the time to actually convert your models, rebuild parts you've had to hack off to get them to look the way you want, make cosmetic upgrades to your models, etc., you are very likely not redoing that every month/year to chase the meta - you might be sorta mental to actually do that.

 

I have numerous models that have sat on the shelf, partially built, due to a lack of the wanted options for them to make them flavorful to the appearance of my armies. I have also converted up my own Hounds of Morkai and they will definitely see the table because they are a cool fluff unit IMO, even though everyone thinks they are terrible/a waste of an Elite space, and since they have no-nothing combat knives, I've taken the liberty to give them no-nothing axes instead, because like combat knives, axes do nothing (they aren't chain axes, they aren't power axes, they don't exist in the game, so there's nothing to complain about).

 

Because GW has never given the flavorful options I have been hoping for on some models, I am going to instead model them with other flavorful options, but honestly, not every Chapter necessarily has that ability - I'd love to see a "shield wall" of Bladeguard Vets with power spears/tridents for the Spears of the Emperor, but unless someone has converted every single power sword to a power spear/trident, then it would potentially be somewhat confusing to see, especially in a competitive environment - the spear/trident would only be saved because they haven't actually given those rules. However, a Gravis Wolf Lord with a Frost Axe or even axe Relic is currently impossible. Similarly, a Primaris Salamander Captain with a thunder hammer and bolt carbine is also impossible. Neither would be a power gaming option, yet someone may want to have just those things. However, either could be confusing for an unfamiliar opponent to the point of not wanting to play against them because you can't actually make those things and GW does have rules for both power/frost/relic axes, thunder hammers, and bolt carbines, so you can't make the argument "Those don't exist so it doesn't matter."

 

 

So use Open Play with Match Rules restrictions? I play my Crusader Biker Squad with my friends doingjust that. And also my whole point is that if a Primaris Captain only legal armament  is PowerSword & Master AutoBoltRifle, convert them to be Frost Ax and MasterBoltRifle. I mean what the problem? If visual aesthetic thing, now they have visually on tabletop a Frost Ax and MastBoltRifle. If you actually want rules for Frost and MastBoltRifle, its not really overpowered or anything so just do 'Open Play' with Match Played style building restrictions. 

 

And look in threads on this forum Blaine, a plurality of folks asking for stuff is asking for:

Jump Packs (Because otherwise Primaris Cpts are 'worse' than Firstborn or they are BA/RG)

Thunder Hammers (because only good weapon Marines have)

SShields (they want the delicious 3+ or their Templars/DA) 

 

But either way

 

```

Because GW has never given the flavorful options I have been hoping for on some models, I am going to instead model them with other flavorful options, but honestly, not every Chapter necessarily has that ability - I'd love to see a "shield wall" of Bladeguard Vets with power spears/tridents for the Spears of the Emperor, but unless someone has converted every single power sword to a power spear/trident, then it would potentially be somewhat confusing to see, especially in a competitive environment - the spear/trident would only be saved because they haven't actually given those rules. However, a Gravis Wolf Lord with a Frost Axe or even axe Relic is currently impossible. Similarly, a Primaris Salamander Captain with a thunder hammer and bolt carbine is also impossible. Neither would be a power gaming option, yet someone may want to have just those things. However, either could be confusing for an unfamiliar opponent to the point of not wanting to play against them because you can't actually make those things and GW does have rules for both power/frost/relic axes, thunder hammers, and bolt carbines, so you can't make the argument "Those don't exist so it doesn't matter." 

```

 

This is exactly what I am saying, because those other options don't exist. The fact unit only has one legal option means you can arm the units however you want. Its one of the reasons I found my kroot army super fun to play 

[Bryan Blaire]

Schlitzaf - I think you are missing the point - if I am not allowed to arm a unit with something per the rules, then I'm not going to arm them with something and play with it. It's not just appearance, or just rules - both of them interact. I don't want something armed with one weapon that has rules proxied as another just because GW thinks it hurts their bottom line not to sell little Jimmy/Jenny a model that has those options natively. I want a unit to be able to be armed with an axe and a bolt carbine and not be my damn LT all the time, whether that's effective or not.

 

And no, in a tourney or other competitive play, your model with a multi-melta on an Intercessor can just be tossed out of your squad - it's not a game-legal model - just like an Eradicator with an auxiliary grenade launcher on an ABR isn't a game-legal model. If you want to model an auxiliary grenade launcher as something other than the model GW makes, that's cool, but an Intercessor can't take a multi-melta, and a multi-melta very much has rules. Proxy models don't work the greatest in most more structured environments and while I'm very much a fan of converting up your own style of melta, plasma, or even flame weapon (because it's a big galaxy, why should they all look the same), I'm not a fan of just sticking one type of weapon on a model in place of another when they both have rules - that's not converting or creative.

 

If your argument is literally "Well, just don't play in those environments", then that's not really an argument against weapon options on a unit that rightfully should have them (because if there's any model that should basically have all the options - barring maybe heavy weapons - it's a Captain or Chapter Master).

 

There's also a difference between kit-bashing and converting things - if all people want to do is slap a few items on something like swapping a hand, that's not really a conversion. On the other hand, if someone wants to slice chunks of weapon off and combine them with parts of another weapon, or make something that didn't exist before (bolt carbine with auxiliary grenade launcher), etc. - those are conversions. Take a look at a lot of the good conversion threads and you'll see lots of examples beyond simple weapon option swaps or sticking a jump pack on something. Kit bashing is nice for getting some new stuff, but it never provides as unique an item as a true conversion does.

 

I'm not going to change my style of play, or proxy a bunch of things, just because GW is selling limited option stuff - I'm just not going to buy their :cuss I don't want.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Some serious on the sleeve perspective there Reaper, however I will comment that you do need to keep some elements in mind.

 

 

My opinions, and they are simply opinions, are formed from anecdotal evidence. Everyone on the board may, and probably does, have evidence to the contrary but in the circles I play in and my experiences within show me that these things I gripe about occur. I will be happy to admit that I am probably a borderline "that guy" and that fact does very much frighten me because I try to do everything to avoid that.

 

Eldar actually encompass also Harlequins. Tau communities actually are also sick of the fact that their only viable lists are all the same thing with no variance (even in Taudar, it was triple stormsurge or bust at minimum) and that still continues to today with Triptide being an issue.

 To Speak as a Tau player, Tau have a vast range of awesome models and units with great lore just like your Dark Eldar do but due to their neglected position actually only have 1, maybe 2, viable lists to slug it out with. Unless you are a Tau player who LOVES riptides then you aren't going to be happy with the faction which one tricks so hard to Triptide and the Drum kit special of shield drones, you are going to have a bad time despite the fact they have multiple cool units from the Ghostkeel and Stealth Suits to the various flavour of auxiliary units that not only get neglected but are getting slowly phased out by GW asking why people still like them. I will also state that they are just as in need of some looking at just like Tyranids and Orks who are similar in needing tune ups who I will say, I was not happy the days of Ork Nob bikerz just charging me all free editions past ether but:

 The Crimes of the Father do not pass down to the son.

 

When I say Tau and Eldar I mean only Tau and Eldar, not any of their supplements and spin-offs, because that's what I have experience with. That was my fault for not specifying that but I get very passionate about this subject and typed before I thought. The local Kroot player counts-as his army as Space Wolves, and he has also run them as the most META Space Wolves so the fact they are Kroot is sort of a moot point.

 

Tau and Eldar may have had only one viable list for a long time, but that doesn't mean players had to run that list in every game, even friendly games. Which they did locally, and when you rock up to a friendly pick-up game on a Friday night at the local club and have packed up ready to go home in 30 minutes was so not fun. I could have run battle company MSU spam but I didn't, because I never run less than 10-man squads in my Marines and Tactical Squads have a heavy and special weapon because I feel it is right, and not because it is powerful.

 

To be honest, there is a list longer than the back log of reports to be done by the adminstratum of 40k lore that GW could do before marines and of thoses you listed by a mere handful. Tau auxiliary expansion is one, Eldar seeing a range update (and may I add, your dark eldar got a range update BEFORE eldar), creating up-to-date lines of the Imperial Guard regiments such as the Steel legion, First-Born, Jungle Fighters, Iron Guard not to mention proper plastic of the Death Korps and Drop Troopers. Creating models for options they keep ignoring despite there being lore for and many others. However GW knows what prints money and marines print money. Sadly Chaos for some reason doesn't get noticed enough, maybe wait until your boy Bile steals the secret Primaris juice and maybe then chaos may see a resurgence.

 

 

You are right in that there is a long list that needs updating, but due to my experience I have a very clear idea in what order I'd want that done. Also I only got into Dark Eldar with the redo in 5th edition so I can only speak from those experiences. I haven't played my Dark Eldar since mid 6th Edition and I put my Grey Knights on the shelf after a few gam,es in 5th Edition. I am one of the worst players on this planet and I didn't win a game from the start of 4th Edition until late 7th Edition. I don't count the wins I had with Grey Knights and Dark Eldar because the army won, I didn't.

 

However if wishes were fishes the world would be an ocean. The "too many space marines" is accurate, we enter 9th and out of question how many months do we go before there is even a chance of no space marines that are loyal? 3 Months? 4 if you count the dark angels as loyal and all the while we would of had only 2 xenos books and of ALL those releases the bulk is purely expansion books for various sub-factions of the loyal space marines. Us space marine players asked for some good support...now we are drowning in it. Game feels like the Horus Heresy game system because we are playing (or...if we could we would be) playing nothing but power armour.

 

 

From my point of view the Jedi are evil the "too many Space Marines" chant is another kick I don't need. When I started I was a bad player playing a bad Chapter of Space Marines when Marines as a whole were not that great. Dark Angels remained a bottom of the barrel army for most of my time in 40k and I am not sure if they "got gud" or if I got better as a player. Having to hear everyone and their dog telling me I was a bad player and my favourite army was worthless really stung. Now that Dark Angels are on par with the rest of Marines and Marines in general have gotten better I can't be all "Hey guys my favourite army is in a good place right now". I now have to be told to feel bad for playing Marines at all.

 

I personally would love to see GW take a big move and over the next year or two just not even give marines as much spotlight and really hammer out some massive xenos and chaos pieces. 

 

 

 

Marines are nearly finished. Once Dark Angels comes out, and I am preparing myself for that disappointment as I always do, that'll be it. They are done. Unless GW pulls a swift one and releases a Black Templars supplement then...after that. How I'd do it is swap the focus from Imperium to Chaos and use the various Xenos factions to split up the releases.

 

I wholeheartedly apologise for any offense to players I have caused, but I do not apologise for my hostility to certain factions. 

[Gederas]

However if wishes were fishes the world would be an ocean. The "too many space marines" is accurate, we enter 9th and out of question how many months do we go before there is even a chance of no space marines that are loyal? 3 Months? 4 if you count the dark angels as loyal and all the while we would of had only 2 xenos books and of ALL those releases the bulk is purely expansion books for various sub-factions of the loyal space marines. Us space marine players asked for some good support...now we are drowning in it. Game feels like the Horus Heresy game system because we are playing (or...if we could we would be) playing nothing but power armour.

 

From my point of view the Jedi are evil the "too many Space Marines" chant is another kick I don't need. When I started I was a bad player playing a bad Chapter of Space Marines when Marines as a whole were not that great. Dark Angels remained a bottom of the barrel army for most of my time in 40k and I am not sure if they "got gud" or if I got better as a player. Having to hear everyone and their dog telling me I was a bad player and my favourite army was worthless really stung. Now that Dark Angels are on par with the rest of Marines and Marines in general have gotten better I can't be all "Hey guys my favourite army is in a good place right now". I now have to be told to feel bad for playing Marines at all.

 

I personally would love to see GW take a big move and over the next year or two just not even give marines as much spotlight and really hammer out some massive xenos and chaos pieces.

Marines are nearly finished. Once Dark Angels comes out, and I am preparing myself for that disappointment as I always do, that'll be it. They are done. Unless GW pulls a swift one and releases a Black Templars supplement then...after that. How I'd do it is swap the focus from Imperium to Chaos and use the various Xenos factions to split up the releases.

 

I wholeheartedly apologise for any offense to players I have caused, but I do not apologise for my hostility to certain factions.

Nah, you're completely correct here. I got into playing at the end of 7th Edition (literally, I get the 7E Rulebook and then 8th was announced three weeks later) and never played 7th, but all the people at my old FLGS continually discussed the Tau-Eldar lists that they had to deal with.

 

I started playing Dark Angels in 8th and had issues with feeling like I was playing a terrible force. Then their codex came out and I found the ONE decent list I could make with what I had (Azrael, Ancient, 10 Hellblasters using Weapons from the Dark Age to delete anything short of a Baneblade per turn) and I still felt like crap because I had to resort to, imo, a cheesey list to even have a chance of winning in even casual games.

 

And now in 9th Edition, I'm told I'm supposed to feel bad for playing Dark Angels.

 

But yes, after Dark Angels, we'll probably not see any (NEW RELEASE, NOT REPACKAGED OR THINGS WE ARE ALREADY WAITING FOR) Marine releases for about 6 to 8 months.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Gederas

[Dark Shepherd]

But yes, after Dark Angels, we'll probably not see any (NEW RELEASE, NOT REPACKAGED OR THINGS WE ARE ALREADY WAITING FOR) Marine releases for about 6 to 8 months.

I hope so

Makes marketing sense too, imagining people clamouring for new marine releases??

New units is saturated

At best theres room for Primarisised named characters and like for like replacements such as Primaris captain/librarian on bike

 

They cant be too far away from releasing upscaled first born units

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Tau need to be nerfed pretty hard this edition and to be honest they have it coming. When every Tau player was taking in excess of 40 drones because they could yes they need a major retooling. It all started when they let Jeremy Vetock write the 6th edition codex.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[SvenIronhand]

Tau need to be nerfed pretty hard this edition and to be honest they have it coming. When every Tau player was taking in excess of 40 drones because they could yes they need a major retooling. It all started when they let Jeremy Vetock write the 6th edition codex.

I actually agree. A big thing about the Tau is their use of auxiliaries, yet my friend who plays Tau just plays pure Tau. I've proposed forcing the Tau to take half auxiliaries to offset this.

 

That, and I feel the Tau don't fit into a game where you have a guy earnestly wielding a sword in a world with Bolters and Plasma Guns.

[Volt]

The issue we're going to run into with this discussion, is as fans, the only power we hold is in our ability to not give GW our money.

 

I agree that not supporting units they don't produce models for is a crummy thing to do from a player perspective. When you then add to that their banning of any third party miniatures from their stores, it makes them come across as petty and boorish. On top of those issues, there is the ever-increasing cost of their kits, some of which are flatly ridiculous, and the less substantial feeling that any new kit they produce for a line has a good chance of being initially over balanced. And all of Those issues are separate from the opinions people might have about recent lore changes.

 

But what do we do about it? We can be angry, we can vote with our wallets, but at the end of the day this is the company that makes the rules us and our buddies play by. I know that I couldn't convince my Warhammer group to put down 40K and play another game. I couldn't even convince them to play an older edition. This means that I can stop playing and likely stop hanging out with them, choose only to buy the books and use my old models while being glad I don't play any of the armies that disappeared, or I can shrug my shoulders and pay the big price for the new stuff. 

 

Mechanically 9th is better than 8th. I stand by that. Crusade is the best way to play 40K that we've had for years. But 9th is worse than Sigmar, and even Sigmar has its list of issues. Sooner or later the cost of the hobby is going to outweigh the fun it can provide, or GW will make some final bad decision that pushes all of the loyal old guard away for good.

You can always just take up 3D printing and convince others to do likewise. You don't actually need any 40k models to play 40k, and we are absolutely at the point where the company is completely irrelevant to the community. 40K can be done entirely DIY with the company cut out and left to wilt on the vine. As I see it expecting literally anything good from GW in the future is a fool's gambit. Prices will never be reduced to a reasonable level to keep in step with how purchasing power hasn't proportionally increased with inflation in much of the west with poor and middle class buying power constricting. GW is never actually going to take writing the universe itself seriously, the latest strain of books and campaigns merely solidifies that any story is purely driven by profits and nothing more (and there's not much story to be had in the first place). Likewise GW's avarice means it doesn't give a damn about the actual hobby and will happily screw with legends and rules to push sales above all else.

 

When it comes to the game itself, expecting GW to ever actually balance rules or make rules actually luffy/warlike is a fool's gambit because their sole desire seems to simplify things by the most incompetent and complicated means possible, ending up in the OP's identified state where bloat has merely increased and we've crested the point a while ago where USR's are less fiddly than the mess of new rules and mechanics. And as for models, we're never even going to get actual xenos or subfaction lines that are good in a timely matter due to the marine cancer which overtakes everything due to a feedback loop encouraged by GW. Marines are too successful for their own good, and people don't buy other factions much so they're not successful, thus we get infinite marine releases to the point of utter ridiculousness when the range should have simply been deemed 'completed' 6 years ago and left to sit for a decade perhaps until tech really came about or molds needed changes due to slippage/cracking. But of course even if Xenos or other factions receive updates, the cost merely goes up and multipart kits go the way of the dodo, so why even want an update? Updates just mean more expense for less or being a flogged equine corpse like marines, so it's not actually that appealing.

 

So to loop back, why the hell not just tell GW to sod off? The community has had the tools to DIY source good looking models for years now, there's zero need for the actual corporation and it's shareholder driven nonsense. And if the community actually got off their arse and stopped buying models and GW was forced to heed the community's ills, we wouldn't be having the same discussion every bloody year in every single warhammer community over and over and over again until heat-death or GW's economic implosion, whichever comes first. The community doesn't need to put up with anything and has all of the means that it could personally source whatever it needs on the 'morrow, the actual need for a corporation is gone now. Yet we all hitch our wagons to a company we constantly complain about, even though we could simply leave while still keeping 40k. The hobby doesn't need GW, GW needs the hobby.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

 

The issue we're going to run into with this discussion, is as fans, the only power we hold is in our ability to not give GW our money.

 

I agree that not supporting units they don't produce models for is a crummy thing to do from a player perspective. When you then add to that their banning of any third party miniatures from their stores, it makes them come across as petty and boorish. On top of those issues, there is the ever-increasing cost of their kits, some of which are flatly ridiculous, and the less substantial feeling that any new kit they produce for a line has a good chance of being initially over balanced. And all of Those issues are separate from the opinions people might have about recent lore changes.

 

But what do we do about it? We can be angry, we can vote with our wallets, but at the end of the day this is the company that makes the rules us and our buddies play by. I know that I couldn't convince my Warhammer group to put down 40K and play another game. I couldn't even convince them to play an older edition. This means that I can stop playing and likely stop hanging out with them, choose only to buy the books and use my old models while being glad I don't play any of the armies that disappeared, or I can shrug my shoulders and pay the big price for the new stuff. 

 

Mechanically 9th is better than 8th. I stand by that. Crusade is the best way to play 40K that we've had for years. But 9th is worse than Sigmar, and even Sigmar has its list of issues. Sooner or later the cost of the hobby is going to outweigh the fun it can provide, or GW will make some final bad decision that pushes all of the loyal old guard away for good.

You can always just take up 3D printing and convince others to do likewise. You don't actually need any 40k models to play 40k, and we are absolutely at the point where the company is completely irrelevant to the community. 40K can be done entirely DIY with the company cut out and left to wilt on the vine. As I see it expecting literally anything good from GW in the future is a fool's gambit. Prices will never be reduced to a reasonable level to keep in step with how purchasing power hasn't proportionally increased with inflation in much of the west with poor and middle class buying power constricting. GW is never actually going to take writing the universe itself seriously, the latest strain of books and campaigns merely solidifies that any story is purely driven by profits and nothing more (and there's not much story to be had in the first place). Likewise GW's avarice means it doesn't give a damn about the actual hobby and will happily screw with legends and rules to push sales above all else.

 

When it comes to the game itself, expecting GW to ever actually balance rules or make rules actually luffy/warlike is a fool's gambit because their sole desire seems to simplify things by the most incompetent and complicated means possible, ending up in the OP's identified state where bloat has merely increased and we've crested the point a while ago where USR's are less fiddly than the mess of new rules and mechanics. And as for models, we're never even going to get actual xenos or subfaction lines that are good in a timely matter due to the marine cancer which overtakes everything due to a feedback loop encouraged by GW. Marines are too successful for their own good, and people don't buy other factions much so they're not successful, thus we get infinite marine releases to the point of utter ridiculousness when the range should have simply been deemed 'completed' 6 years ago and left to sit for a decade perhaps until tech really came about or molds needed changes due to slippage/cracking. But of course even if Xenos or other factions receive updates, the cost merely goes up and multipart kits go the way of the dodo, so why even want an update? Updates just mean more expense for less or being a flogged equine corpse like marines, so it's not actually that appealing.

 

So to loop back, why the hell not just tell GW to sod off? The community has had the tools to DIY source good looking models for years now, there's zero need for the actual corporation and it's shareholder driven nonsense. And if the community actually got off their arse and stopped buying models and GW was forced to heed the community's ills, we wouldn't be having the same discussion every bloody year in every single warhammer community over and over and over again until heat-death or GW's economic implosion, whichever comes first. The community doesn't need to put up with anything and has all of the means that it could personally source whatever it needs on the 'morrow, the actual need for a corporation is gone now. Yet we all hitch our wagons to a company we constantly complain about, even though we could simply leave while still keeping 40k. The hobby doesn't need GW, GW needs the hobby.

 

 

My only counter argument to 3d printing is that I play 40K at my LGS, a miniature and board game focused shop owned by a couple of guys I'm pretty fond of. Every time I drop a few hundred bucks starting a new army I contribute to keeping the lights on, and that is a good feeling. Were I to stop buying miniatures through them myself, not to mention pulling all my buddies away too, we'd rob that shop of a hefty chunk of its revenue. Just handing them 200 bucks every now and again would feel odd for everyone involved.

 

On the topic of rules, I've proposed sweeping house rules and self built codecies a few times, but that produces a whole list of issues. We have regulars who show up every Wednesday and go out to eat together when the shop closes, and maybe the rules would work for us. But the people who show up for a game and leave, not part of that core group? What about the guys that show up once a month? Or the guys who drop in for games while they're staying on business? Every time it's come up we've decided it's better to use more widely applicable rules that don't exclude the people outside of our group, and none of us are all that interested in learning 2 sets of the rules just because we're butthurt about the most recent changes.

 

All in all, I'd say it's easy to be angry, and it's easy to want things to change. But when you get down to the meat of it, there are usually reasons we're stuck doing things the way we do. Even despite forums and facebook the community is a fractured series of isolated pockets that tend to address these issues alone. I really feel that GW is going to have to make a big enough slip that everyone independently decides to stop playing and switch to a reasonable competitor before we see any kind of positive change.

[Evil Eye]

 

The issue we're going to run into with this discussion, is as fans, the only power we hold is in our ability to not give GW our money.

 

I agree that not supporting units they don't produce models for is a crummy thing to do from a player perspective. When you then add to that their banning of any third party miniatures from their stores, it makes them come across as petty and boorish. On top of those issues, there is the ever-increasing cost of their kits, some of which are flatly ridiculous, and the less substantial feeling that any new kit they produce for a line has a good chance of being initially over balanced. And all of Those issues are separate from the opinions people might have about recent lore changes.

 

But what do we do about it? We can be angry, we can vote with our wallets, but at the end of the day this is the company that makes the rules us and our buddies play by. I know that I couldn't convince my Warhammer group to put down 40K and play another game. I couldn't even convince them to play an older edition. This means that I can stop playing and likely stop hanging out with them, choose only to buy the books and use my old models while being glad I don't play any of the armies that disappeared, or I can shrug my shoulders and pay the big price for the new stuff. 

 

Mechanically 9th is better than 8th. I stand by that. Crusade is the best way to play 40K that we've had for years. But 9th is worse than Sigmar, and even Sigmar has its list of issues. Sooner or later the cost of the hobby is going to outweigh the fun it can provide, or GW will make some final bad decision that pushes all of the loyal old guard away for good.

You can always just take up 3D printing and convince others to do likewise. You don't actually need any 40k models to play 40k, and we are absolutely at the point where the company is completely irrelevant to the community. 40K can be done entirely DIY with the company cut out and left to wilt on the vine. As I see it expecting literally anything good from GW in the future is a fool's gambit. Prices will never be reduced to a reasonable level to keep in step with how purchasing power hasn't proportionally increased with inflation in much of the west with poor and middle class buying power constricting. GW is never actually going to take writing the universe itself seriously, the latest strain of books and campaigns merely solidifies that any story is purely driven by profits and nothing more (and there's not much story to be had in the first place). Likewise GW's avarice means it doesn't give a damn about the actual hobby and will happily screw with legends and rules to push sales above all else.

 

When it comes to the game itself, expecting GW to ever actually balance rules or make rules actually luffy/warlike is a fool's gambit because their sole desire seems to simplify things by the most incompetent and complicated means possible, ending up in the OP's identified state where bloat has merely increased and we've crested the point a while ago where USR's are less fiddly than the mess of new rules and mechanics. And as for models, we're never even going to get actual xenos or subfaction lines that are good in a timely matter due to the marine cancer which overtakes everything due to a feedback loop encouraged by GW. Marines are too successful for their own good, and people don't buy other factions much so they're not successful, thus we get infinite marine releases to the point of utter ridiculousness when the range should have simply been deemed 'completed' 6 years ago and left to sit for a decade perhaps until tech really came about or molds needed changes due to slippage/cracking. But of course even if Xenos or other factions receive updates, the cost merely goes up and multipart kits go the way of the dodo, so why even want an update? Updates just mean more expense for less or being a flogged equine corpse like marines, so it's not actually that appealing.

 

So to loop back, why the hell not just tell GW to sod off? The community has had the tools to DIY source good looking models for years now, there's zero need for the actual corporation and it's shareholder driven nonsense. And if the community actually got off their arse and stopped buying models and GW was forced to heed the community's ills, we wouldn't be having the same discussion every bloody year in every single warhammer community over and over and over again until heat-death or GW's economic implosion, whichever comes first. The community doesn't need to put up with anything and has all of the means that it could personally source whatever it needs on the 'morrow, the actual need for a corporation is gone now. Yet we all hitch our wagons to a company we constantly complain about, even though we could simply leave while still keeping 40k. The hobby doesn't need GW, GW needs the hobby.

 

Why indeed? Maybe because some of us are quite happy with the hobby as is and don't feel the need to shoot ourselves in the foot because an extremely vocal minority don't like the company? If you really, really don't like the way the game's going then put your money where your mouth is and stop playing with rules you evidently hate. Just use the rules for your favourite edition. Buy the models you want. Nobody is forcing you to use the current edition. Look at D&D, plenty of people still use 3.5 edition rules. Considering your spiel about how the community doesn't need GW, you seem pretty adamant in letting GW dictate how you enjoy the hobby. Or is it that you don't like that other people still enjoy it and you want them to stop having badwrongfun?

[Volt]

 

 

The issue we're going to run into with this discussion, is as fans, the only power we hold is in our ability to not give GW our money.

 

I agree that not supporting units they don't produce models for is a crummy thing to do from a player perspective. When you then add to that their banning of any third party miniatures from their stores, it makes them come across as petty and boorish. On top of those issues, there is the ever-increasing cost of their kits, some of which are flatly ridiculous, and the less substantial feeling that any new kit they produce for a line has a good chance of being initially over balanced. And all of Those issues are separate from the opinions people might have about recent lore changes.

 

But what do we do about it? We can be angry, we can vote with our wallets, but at the end of the day this is the company that makes the rules us and our buddies play by. I know that I couldn't convince my Warhammer group to put down 40K and play another game. I couldn't even convince them to play an older edition. This means that I can stop playing and likely stop hanging out with them, choose only to buy the books and use my old models while being glad I don't play any of the armies that disappeared, or I can shrug my shoulders and pay the big price for the new stuff. 

 

Mechanically 9th is better than 8th. I stand by that. Crusade is the best way to play 40K that we've had for years. But 9th is worse than Sigmar, and even Sigmar has its list of issues. Sooner or later the cost of the hobby is going to outweigh the fun it can provide, or GW will make some final bad decision that pushes all of the loyal old guard away for good.

You can always just take up 3D printing and convince others to do likewise. You don't actually need any 40k models to play 40k, and we are absolutely at the point where the company is completely irrelevant to the community. 40K can be done entirely DIY with the company cut out and left to wilt on the vine. As I see it expecting literally anything good from GW in the future is a fool's gambit. Prices will never be reduced to a reasonable level to keep in step with how purchasing power hasn't proportionally increased with inflation in much of the west with poor and middle class buying power constricting. GW is never actually going to take writing the universe itself seriously, the latest strain of books and campaigns merely solidifies that any story is purely driven by profits and nothing more (and there's not much story to be had in the first place). Likewise GW's avarice means it doesn't give a damn about the actual hobby and will happily screw with legends and rules to push sales above all else.

 

When it comes to the game itself, expecting GW to ever actually balance rules or make rules actually luffy/warlike is a fool's gambit because their sole desire seems to simplify things by the most incompetent and complicated means possible, ending up in the OP's identified state where bloat has merely increased and we've crested the point a while ago where USR's are less fiddly than the mess of new rules and mechanics. And as for models, we're never even going to get actual xenos or subfaction lines that are good in a timely matter due to the marine cancer which overtakes everything due to a feedback loop encouraged by GW. Marines are too successful for their own good, and people don't buy other factions much so they're not successful, thus we get infinite marine releases to the point of utter ridiculousness when the range should have simply been deemed 'completed' 6 years ago and left to sit for a decade perhaps until tech really came about or molds needed changes due to slippage/cracking. But of course even if Xenos or other factions receive updates, the cost merely goes up and multipart kits go the way of the dodo, so why even want an update? Updates just mean more expense for less or being a flogged equine corpse like marines, so it's not actually that appealing.

 

So to loop back, why the hell not just tell GW to sod off? The community has had the tools to DIY source good looking models for years now, there's zero need for the actual corporation and it's shareholder driven nonsense. And if the community actually got off their arse and stopped buying models and GW was forced to heed the community's ills, we wouldn't be having the same discussion every bloody year in every single warhammer community over and over and over again until heat-death or GW's economic implosion, whichever comes first. The community doesn't need to put up with anything and has all of the means that it could personally source whatever it needs on the 'morrow, the actual need for a corporation is gone now. Yet we all hitch our wagons to a company we constantly complain about, even though we could simply leave while still keeping 40k. The hobby doesn't need GW, GW needs the hobby.

 

Why indeed? Maybe because some of us are quite happy with the hobby as is and don't feel the need to shoot ourselves in the foot because an extremely vocal minority don't like the company? If you really, really don't like the way the game's going then put your money where your mouth is and stop playing with rules you evidently hate. Just use the rules for your favourite edition. Buy the models you want. Nobody is forcing you to use the current edition. Look at D&D, plenty of people still use 3.5 edition rules. Considering your spiel about how the community doesn't need GW, you seem pretty adamant in letting GW dictate how you enjoy the hobby. Or is it that you don't like that other people still enjoy it and you want them to stop having badwrongfun?

 

No, that's a lie going by your own post history. The defining trait of the 40k community is complaining, which is omnipresent wherever you go. Even here on the BnC basically most discussion on the hobby, if it is not some discussion on lore generation or list building, it inevitably turns into a negative discussion concerning 40k or GW as probably one of the main appeals of playing 40k in the first place - the perpetual and omnipresent salt. But what's utterly baffling is seeing people acknowledge this and constantly issue complaints and do literally nothing to fix it. Playing older editions is also in my experience virtually impossible, chiefly because of the problem of people chiefly following the current edition like a cult that regards any suggestion other than what's currently being pushed by the company as heretical. Even while complaints are constantly aired about the price of the game, the terrible state of balance, armies not getting updates, etc. And so that just becomes a vicious and perpetual cycle in the fanbase even though the logical course of action to take after making a complaint is to take steps of "how do I fix this" not "I will do the same thing over and over and complain about entirely predictable results".

[Cpt_Reaper]

I do not beleive that "voting with one's wallet" is enough anymore, simply because of the nature of the community. Whales exist, some are just flat out addicted to the plastic crack and others like me who are both addicted but also have a massive emotional investment in the game.

 

GW needs to answer the community. That answer needs to be either "yes, we will change" or "No, we will not change". A response of "we have taken this into consideration, thankyou," is unacceptable.

Model kits need to come with option in the kit, and the rules need to allow for kitbashing (ie taking the plasma pistol from one squad and using it on another). They lost against Chapterhouse, that's not our problem.

Why did they deem that primaris needed to be a thing, when Eldar still have metal and resin?
What is the roadmap for releases? What is being worked on, what is being removed (Legends is not an answer. If it's legends it is scrapped). No secrets, no "it's a surprise".

[chapter master 454]

I do agree with reaper there on a lot of things however unfortunately the event really did rumble GW badly which lead to them doing things as they do now with the most popular theory being profits are lost from such things, however it is also just as likely there is some other factors we don't know about. The main point is that GW seem to think that it is a threat to profits for others make parts they won't but not enough profits in making those parts anyway so kind of points at some other issue.

 

I would say that from that, there has been a notable change in GWs way of doing things. It is rather sad but they aren't un-doable ether, things like the million datasheets for various models who really should of been only a handful of datasheets isn't too hard to fix later down the line with a more combined box instead of individual models. Think like the commander box for space marines but instead for other characters, not just captains. Would still cost 20 odd bucks as those mono-pose characters do but you would at least get options. Again this seems to come down to a conflict of how people perceive such wants, some see it as power gaming, some see it as narrative fluffing and some see it as a chance for experiments. I will point out that there are still vestiges of options left within the game within only some units the most notable is the Vanguard Veterans who still retain their John Woo loadout option (double pistols of Bolt, Grav or Plasma) which is great and fun, I mean how could you say a unit of dual pistol jump pack space marines isn't visually awesome! Is it competitive? Not sure and likely not but still, awesome as heck!

 

I personally have a love for the Firstborn kits because of their modularity and universal nature. Each box interacts with each other fairly cleanly and allows a player who wants a different loadout from in the box to go out, get the appropriate box and use those parts and still be completely legal. I mean, now a days if they want to make something unique they need to go to 3rd party anyway...just saying (and we aren't talking things like stormsurges with arms, we are talking just basic details).

However some argue options lead to power gaming but imo Power Gaming exists with or without options. In fact, power gamers don't care for options; they want the strongest. If a unit has options then they may find a strong load out but ultimately the only difference it makes is how long they spend looking at the datasheet before approving of the unit or discarding as "weak".

 

I stand by the flag of options do not hurt the game nor the company. I personally don't mind Primaris models but I am finding the certain air of uncertainty relating to space marine future a little...distasteful which I think comes round to Reapers point: "it's a surprise" is not good marketing when your community isn't exactly all rainbow and roses. They know Primaris have been contentious within not just space marine communities and while they seem to be ignoring other elephants for the whale in front of them, factions like chaos in particular want to know if they will get updates? I mean...lore wise it would be a warp of a mess to explain why the chaos marines are so different from the new marines when the lore for that is "some tech priest came along and did that suddenly in th 42nd or so millennia".

Enough surprises, enough secrets. They aren't the Dark Angels, they are Games Workshop, Why can't we just be told for once what they are doing proper? Hmm...oh I know because they aren't able to respond quickly due to how their pipeline works! By the time we are told, moulds are made, product is being made and shipped. So really what "it's a surprise" can translate to is "like or lump"...

[Rik Lightstar]

I couldn't leave the (abridged) statement of "it's obviously bad because every thread has people complaining" uncountered.

 

It's pretty consistently the same dozen or so members of the forum with the same grumbles taking shifts to shoot down every response within minutes until a thread gets locked. It's the very definition of a vocal minority.

 

Rik

[NovemberIX]

Apologies if this is scattershot, I've been thinking pretty long and hard about this, and it all comes down to a couple major complaints.

 

The loss of Options both in rules and physical models. I like having options, I like building non-optimal units and using them in fun and stupid ways, I like that I could do that because marines were modular. These days, it doesn't feel like that as much. I really wish GW would just acknowledge they have an after market for their game, and that this aftermarket services customers GW doesn't always take care of, and that this aftermarket helps push sales of the main product.

 

8 years in and this is my 4th new edition, every time there's a new edition, we hear "THIS is the edition that brings balance, THIS edition streamlines the games, THIS is gonna the living rule set." I would love for there to be some sorta stability so they can actually balance the rules instead of these giant swinging changes. Not to speak of the months afterward chasing 1 off rules bugs with faqs and updates that break things, and are never printed in the books themselves.

 

Last but importantly, GW needs to learn you can't bleed a stone. Voting with your wallet becomes immaterial if you disengage cause other forms of entertainment are cheaper and easier to enjoy. Heck, I'll even echo Volt somewhat, at this point it is cheaper for me to buy a 3d printer, commission some STL files if necessary, and print me a faction. Given the preponderance of 3d models online that fans and other users have uploaded on the 'net  the commissioning step may not even be necessary short of custom designed pieces.

 

None of this even touches on the biggest issue, but it's an issue I have with most corporations, I feel like I'm not a client, I'm not even a customer, I'm a resource to extracts funds from. The community surveys are a step in the right direction, but I think until some price corrections happen, some actual road mapping, and a host of other customer-centric actions, GW is on a path that I'm not sure how long I can stay on.

 

EDIT: autocorrected words make no sense sometimes....

Edited November 9, 2020 by NovemberIX

[smileyjim]

Tau army needs a full rework, as in full. Scrap everything and rebuild. It is the worst army by a country mile atm and has been pushed into a corner over the years. It needs playability and creativity pumped back into it. It was broken good now broken bad, its time it gets fixed and revamped as there a great potential for a faction that could play very differently to the rest and by that i don't mean hide behind drones in the corner of the map. Something they now can't do anyway due to the 9th missions.

 

The argument of, they used to be op for years so now they can rot I find petty and small minded. Nothing improves with that mentality, a cursory glance out the window and flick through a child's history book shows you that.

[Cpt_Reaper]

That's the thing smileyjim, they weren't just OP they were so OP I am still angry at it several editions later. To Tau, and Eldar, players that may seem petty but those two factions nearly made me quit the game. Never since 4th edtion when I started did I literally get tabled before I got a turn. That's the type of event that causes me to hold a grudge.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Cpt_Reaper

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is basically the golden age of Warhammer40k... truly is amazing to me how far they have come and what they can do now.

[Stofficus]

I am not a "Greybeard" in the tradition sense - I started dabbling in 4th (mostly with video games and books to be honest) and only really got into tabletop seriously about midway through 5th edition, and I'd say for the most part I'm pretty pleased with the current state of things, but there are a few outlying issues which really stand out - in part because GW has come a long ways on many key fronts;

 

The Good

 

Diversity. 40k spent most of its time since the dawn of it with very little in the way of "new" factions aside from the Tau, but starting at the tail-end of the dumpster fire that was 7th (oh god, please never again) we've had a steady flow of much-requested factions: SoB have returned, Adeptus Custodes, AdMech, the first standalone traitor-legions, Harlequins, Deathwatch - it's been heavily Imperial, but the current gaming landscape has a level of diversity which is unparalleled and continuously being expanded. things like proper Traitor Guard and Emperor's Children aren't just fantasy - they're an almost certainty given time, and that's fantastic. 

 

Balance. 40k is huge, and with a pretty strong narrative bent to its game design, and as such I don't really expect tight balance outside of specialist games. However, in spite of adding a bunch of new factions and tons of subfaction rules, 40k is in a pretty alright state balance wise. We get fairly regular rules adjustments from Erratas, FAQs and Chapter Approved, a blistering codex update cycle, and probably the flattest balance curve since maybe ever? Marines are a bit overtuned, but I haven't been tabled turn 1 in a good long time, even those few times I've made the mistake of attending tournaments with a fluffbunny list. 

 

Communication. GW used to be an absolute garbage company at communicating outwards, to say nothing of receiving communication. Warcom, engaging major community events and clearly scraping some kind of public feedback and responding to it is unparalleled to their old selves, and honestly better than most of their competition. 

 

Design. Citadel has always made excellent models, but they've only continued to pull ahead. I'm not always a fan of the art direction, and I personally think the Primaris fluff is the most hamfisted nonsense to appear since Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau, but damn if the models released in the last few years aren't stellar by any metric. I'm sitting here waiting for my Guard infantry modernization with barely contained anticipation, even if the news ranges have favoured style over customization. 

 

The Meh

 

Fluff. Full disclosure, most of my relationship with 40k is through an enjoyment of the setting and stories contained therein - from just decompressing after a long day at work booting up Dawn of War for the umpteenth time, to recovering in hospital from a collapsed lung re-reading Eisenhorn, a great deal of my escapism is through 40k. I have to admit, while the GW main studio has generally not been great at anything beyond brief plot hooks and grand-scale set dressing, the more recent stuff has ranged from uninspired to brushing up in uncomfortable ways with Marvel superhero romps - and most damningly is working quite hard to get the Black Library to push their recent narratives. It may be petty, but having Dan Abnett actually use "Astra Militarum" in a Gaunt's Ghost novel was jarring, and very little of the delivery of Indomitus, the Primaris, Ynnead and so on has been interesting, effective or noteworthy. 

 

Mechanics. On the other hand, tabletop 40k has been a big part of my social life for some years now (incidentally, alongside fencing - I don't recommend directly mixing the two, however) and while overall I'm pretty satisfied with 8th and what I've seen of 9th (living in a Covid hotspot, haven't put the edition into practice yet) there are some things which I'm not in love with: 

 

     - Stratagems. I've never liked MTG-style card games, and the heavy emphasis on what is effectively a series of "trap cards" to evoke the flavour of your army vice in-built mechanics is a bit off putting. There are some things which are interesting mechanically which I didn't conceive of from the pre-strat era, but they're a crutch which I suspect has a ways to go before it feels more natural and less like a separate game injected into 40k. 

 

     - First turn advantage. I was really hoping 40k would get away from IGOUGO, as while it's not as bad as the dark times of 7th, the first turn quite often defines the outcome of a game. Alternating activations have become a staple of most alternative wargames in various styles (some of which are very 40k in style, like Bolt Action, designed by 40k's 5th edition lead writer) and for good reason. Hell, Apocalypse now uses a style of this, and GW needs to rip the bandaid off and move away from this current structure which brutally punishes mis-deploying and losing a roll off. 

 

The Bad

 

Pricing. There was a sweet period in late 7th and early 8th where GW realized a way to more or less print money was via discounted box sets. BaC, BoP, Forgebane, Renegade, Start Collecting, etc all made big waves when they started rolling out and people ate them up. While we still see these boxes coming out somewhat regularly with a consistent 35-50% discount baked in, the per-box prices are getting ludicrous and internally inconsistent. To buy a box of Necron Warriors is only a few euro less than a box of warriors, a royal warden, a primaris LT and a demi-squad of assault intercessors, and both are in the same realm as a AAA video game. I make pretty good money - in fact my income has nearly tripled since I started playing 40k, but the average price for 40k has almost nearly tripled as well - and that's just not sustainable at a certain point, especially on the book front. 

 

Books. The current rules update cycle is pretty great in terms of delivering updates on a regular basis, unlike yesteryear when Bretonnia went, what was it, 4 editions of WHF without an update? What's not great is the continued maintenance of book-bloat in place since late 6th edition, but now with high-speed obsolescence of textbook-priced publications, which in some cases are paid-for mandatory patches. The delivery of updates is not a currently viable model, and the recent app launch does not fill me with confidence that will be the panacea to having to lug around a dozen publications which represent a not-insignificant % of a given player's total $ value of 40k product. 

 

Flexibility. Lots of others have touched on it, the knee-jerk reaction to losing the Chapterhouse lawsuit (which I often remind myself was just a dude casting some variant parts in his garage to un-derp some questionable model designs in the mid-2000s being hounded by an aggressive multi-national corporation) has made the game a fair bit clunkier for certain factions. There's whole pages of rules I more or less ignore in C:SM as I don't need 5 data sheets for slightly different loadouts for Primaris characters. I get, and honestly prefer, the idea of no model = no rules, as it forced GW to get off their ass and cover some holes that had been in the model range for years, especially for Xenos, but to the point where if there isn't an explicit box set with the explicitly weapon combo attached with bespoke parts, it gets axed - or otherwise gets its own bespoke rules? It's messy, ugly and inhibits one of the great historic strengths of 40k - making "your dudes." I have a whole army of 30k Loyalist Emperor's Children where probably 30% of the models are "unique" due to kitbashing entirely GW parts - that's something the newer ranges are standing in the way of, and it's not something I'm on board with. 

 

Forgeworld. The recent compendium is insulting, the Legends PDF even worse, and the complete collapse of support for Age of Darkness is pretty much unacceptable. GW's messaging is clear - forgeworld products are no longer going to be seeing any serious support, and we're more or less just circling the drain for the Age of Darkness. This is just dissapointing when for so long during the "Dark Years" of 6th and 7th, FW was the light keeping the dream of "good" 40k alive, only to now become the very thing it swore to defeat. 

 

Primaris. This is very specific - I love the look of the models (a whole range of "truscale" marines? about damn time!), and it was sort of inevitable that the best-selling model range of anything on the planet would get a pretty big refresh at some point to reinvigorate sales, but the release cycle has been punishing to, what I think, is the overall health of the game. Marines have been the poster boys of 40k since, well, ever, and have enjoyed support commensurate to their popularity. The SM codex has pretty much always had the most units, but by more or less re-launching the whole range, we have been bombarded by never-ending Primaris model releases at the expense of seemingly everything else; Phobos-pattern Primaris alone now have a range greater than that of the Death Guard, the other poster kid for 8th, with bespoke rules, psychic disciplines and so on. The number of Primaris releases is simply out of control and means that everyone not playing Primaris is looking at, potentially, years to see anything beyond a single kit released alongside a codex refresh. I'm hoping GW is more-or-less done with core Primaris units, but I fear they'll just start rolling into the variant-marine Primaris units next and still have Eldar with finecast aspect warriors and Guard with models older than pretty much every item I own that isn't a literal antique. It's boring, I'm tired of it (as someone who really enjoys space marines) and there has to be some level of buyer fatigue at this point.