Codex Predictions + Hopes

[davextreme]

I suppose Primaris Interrogator-Chaplains are possible, maybe just adding “Inner Circle” to the existing sheet. I’d still wind up using the existing model, though, because it looks cool and has chapter flavor.

 

I’m curious to see if there’s updated text on how the Ravenwing is organized now with Primaris units. Previously, holding over from when formations were a thing, there was the idea that Ravenwing “squads” were 10 marines: 6 bikes, 1 attack bike, 1 land speeder, or a fire support formation of Land Speeders and Attack Bikes. Is there an updated version of this for Outriders, ATVs, and Storm Speeders? Not talking about gameplay, mind, just the background.

[WrathOfTheLion]

No updated version that I have seen, but maybe it exists in the book.

 

We haven't actually seen most of those units even painted in Ravenwing colors yet, which I find really odd.

[Aeri]

I suppose Primaris Interrogator-Chaplains are possible, maybe just adding “Inner Circle” to the existing sheet. I’d still wind up using the existing model, though, because it looks cool and has chapter flavor.

 

I’m curious to see if there’s updated text on how the Ravenwing is organized now with Primaris units. Previously, holding over from when formations were a thing, there was the idea that Ravenwing “squads” were 10 marines: 6 bikes, 1 attack bike, 1 land speeder, or a fire support formation of Land Speeders and Attack Bikes. Is there an updated version of this for Outriders, ATVs, and Storm Speeders? Not talking about gameplay, mind, just the background.

I miss formations :( The concept was cool, but just implemented badly.

[davextreme]

No updated version that I have seen, but maybe it exists in the book.

 

I wouldn’t expect a new model, just (potentially) giving them Inner Circle and maybe they’re a few points more.

 

But I don’t really expect that, either. I think these supplements are meant to be lean. Update the data sheets for the unique units and that’s it. Honestly I don’t even particularly think this is the wrong approach. If it’s a choice between spending a ton of time on new Dark Angels models or updating other armies with stale models, I’d rather their time go to that. Like, Blood Angels had their own entire Tactical Squad kit and that was rad, but I just think spending that much time on one subfaction doesn’t make as much sense.

 

With this in mind, what I’d like, though I don’t think is likely, is a bigger upgrade kit that has a few robed Primaris bodies for sergeants and some molded Deathwing and Ravenwing shoulders. I think this would get us by pretty well absent specialized boxes.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I've found it odd that they never showed really any of this new stuff painted for DA yet.

 

The only primaris Ravenwing unit I've seen is one of the speeders, which I've found very strange. We've seen a small bit of a Deathwing force, but we can conclude they have a decent sized army of that, we just haven't seen it.

[Aeri]

Didn't we see both Ravenwing Outriders and Deathwing Bladeguard? The latter I am sure of.

[WrathOfTheLion]

We've seen studio Deathwing bladeguard, but not Ravenwing outriders. Just as annoying with the Bladeguard though, I don't think we've seen what iconography is used on their right shoulderpad.

 

We can guess that it's the new one on the indomitus transfer sheet, but that's just a guess.

Edited December 18, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[G8Keeper]

Didn't we see both Ravenwing Outriders and Deathwing Bladeguard? The latter I am sure of.

 

I believe there was a RW outrider painted up in one of the warcom articles. I could have dreamt it but I'm pretty sure it's real.....honest.

[WrathOfTheLion]

There was a converted one from the community I think. But not the actual studio one.

[jbaeza94]

They could go the way of hounds of morkai and death company with a simple repackage, why not deathwing aggressors ? It honestly makes sense and that could be our new unit

[WrathOfTheLion]

Our upgrade kit doesn't have Deathwing shoulderpads. They can't do a repackage with the upgrade kit to get Deathwing.

 

Besides, since Deathwing units don't look different for successor chapters, how would you differentiate?

 

Aggressors are just not that interesting of a unit either, so I'd prefer they did something else or nothing at all.

Edited December 19, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[WARMASTER_]

They could go the way of hounds of morkai and death company with a simple repackage, why not deathwing aggressors ? It honestly makes sense and that could be our new unit

Deathwing is the first company, for me it only feels right putting actual first company style units in, I like the BG edition they match the DA theme well but aggressors don’t really feel appropriate on either point for me, I don’t see how they make sense?

[1s=heretical]

What if they had troops to ravenwing like incusors and infiltrators etc

[davextreme]

It makes sense if you imagine Aggressors—or really Gravis—as the Primaris equivalent of Terminator Armour.

 

Part of the idea of Terminators is they can deploy into really tough situations, going all the way back to the tight corridors of a Genestealer-infested Space Hulk, and they are hardy enough to survive while also having close combat heft and some shooting. Bladeguard Veterans don’t have the same survivability nor the shooting. Aggressors fill that role in the Primaris line.

 

it doens’t really work with the Deathwing thing of keeping all the Terminator suits in the 1st company, though. Aggressors are currently used as fire support throughout the other companies (as well as other Gravis units).

 

Bladeguard Veterans are Deathwing basically for marketing reasons, though. DA lore says veterans = DW. GW doesn’t want to say, “DA don’t get BGV b/c they have DW Terminators” because that would mean a premier unit from the boxed set would be unavailable to the army. Maybe the new supplement will clarify this and say that Azrael is changing up how the DW works in light of Primaris. We’ll see. (But I don’t actually expect anything but slight tweaks from the current PDF.)

Edited December 19, 2020 by davextreme

[Master Sheol]

Gracis is NOT a terminator armou for primaris for some good reasons

no 2+ save

no 5++ inv save

no teleport strike

 

Aggressors are more like mini centurions and not primaris terminators

 

BG is not so good in DW cause they dont have teleport strike but GW pushed them into DW cause they didnt know what to give to primaris DW

 

Incursors and inflirtrators are not RW suitable units for two reasons

First they are foot slo9gging units in a company of fast moving units

Second phobos units are already part of the tenth company acting like the primaris equivalent of scouts they are alreayd units from a specialized company

 

A repackage of a random unit with DA pads will not make any decent unit variant for the DA so we will not recieve that kind of joke unit (Deathwatch didn't received that in the same way so there is a precedent here)

[bigtrouble]

I totally get bladeguard in DW. I think it’s a nice nod to the Primaris who’ve earned the promotion. They can’t use TDA, so to give them the close combat specialist/counter assault role feels right.

[Berzul]

This has been discussed before.

 

Primaris do NOT have true Terminator units, yet. Any unit going into the DW is pretty much GW shoehorning something in there so we will play our army with the models at hand. Same uses to go for the RW, but now there ARE bikes we can take into the company.

 

Units are not being designed, sculpted, made and sold, with our army in mind specifically. They are made to the needs of the codex-compliant Space Marine armies.

 

We got too niche for our own good, in a sense. We now have to wait for GW to make us some custom units that fit the lore, or play with what there is and make the lore fit the models.

 

The second option seems to be the way GW is taking things. We better get used to the idea.

[WARMASTER_]

It makes sense if you imagine Aggressors—or really Gravis—as the Primaris equivalent of Terminator Armour.

 

Part of the idea of Terminators is they can deploy into really tough situations, going all the way back to the tight corridors of a Genestealer-infested Space Hulk, and they are hardy enough to survive while also having close combat heft and some shooting. Bladeguard Veterans don’t have the same survivability nor the shooting. Aggressors fill that role in the Primaris line.

 

Bladeguard Veterans are Deathwing basically for marketing reasons, though. DA lore says veterans = DW. GW doesn’t want to say, “DA don’t get BGV b/c they have DW Terminators” because that would mean a premier unit from the boxed set would be unavailable to the army. Maybe the new supplement will clarify this and say that Azrael is changing up how the DW works in light of Primaris. We’ll see. (But I don’t actually expect anything but slight tweaks from the current PDF.)

Just on these two points I’d argue BGV are tougher that gravis aggressors with their SS, they also still have shooting with their Heavy bolt pistols and a Volkite or plasma sergeant

 

And as with marketing, sales or “shoehorning in” as other fratters have said, I really don’t think that’s the case. In the DA Index astartes published last October time (Waaay before the BG revels) they’d already gone into how a Primaris marine made it in to the DW

 

It’s a deliberate decision on GW’s part to make them DW not for marking though, as they could have easily just made BGV’s a “company veterans” equivalent and we all use them as Green Wing, they had to induct Primaris to the DW, battle field attrition makes it inevitable that Primaris will be inducted just as one day they’ll make up the entire company

 

Personally I feel Gravis is the new terminator armour but they need to introduce some wargear only veterans wearing it get so the feel more elite

 

(For the people saying it’s definitely not terminator armour, just look at the new HQ’s and named HQ’s Calgar, Tor Garradon, Gravis captains... it’s terminator armour, but more like in the heresy when it’s a just heavier plate for better protection or line breaking rather than a treasured relic of the Chapter)

Edited December 19, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Master Sheol]

BGV veterans don't fit DW cause they don't fit the typical modus operandi of the company that is teleporting on the RW homers when the exploring fast units of the second company find a target valuable for the TDA clad veterans of the first company

Dreadnoughts can fit hte DW cause they have dedicated drop pods (even if they are only made by FW) to use the same tactical approach of the rest of the company

Terminators of the first company can also ride in LR and so they have also another way to be fielded

 

BGV instead are forced to go on foot or in transport and they cannot deepstrike in any way cause they don't have access even to drop pods so they are basically useless in the majority of the missions the DW is going to fulfill

 

When you put a unit that doesn't fill the battlefield role of a certain formation these are the results. It's like trying to put mountain troops into an amphibious force. They simply don't fit the role.

 

RW on the other hands received not one but three units and they are all three fitting the role cause they are the primaris version of bikes (outriders) attack bikes (invader ATV) LS (stormspeeder) so there is no problem to include them in the second company cause they fullfill perfectly the battlefield role needed

Edited December 19, 2020 by Master Sheol

[WrathOfTheLion]

Why would ravenwing need troops when we'll get obsec on the bikes and all? I do agree the new Ravenwing kits fit well. I do wish there was some RW officer added in though, something like a Talonmaster on bike.

 

And I do not imagine Gravis as anywhere close to TDA. Once they added heavy intercessors, that sealed the deal to me that they aren't equivalent in any meaningful manner. The BGV make much more sense than any of the gravis units, so I'm fine with them. At the very least, they aren't duplicated from the Greenwing. I do wish they could get access to teleportation though.

 

Making the separation and claiming dreadnoughts do orbital assault from the FW dreadnought drop pod is a stretch, it is not convincing. If we're going there, what about Land Raiders, which can be deathwing but cannot deep strike?

Edited December 19, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[bigtrouble]

If none of the Primaris have teleport capability, then it’s not really a factor, in my opinion. It is a hole in the Primaris line that they don’t seem to be interested in filling. Maybe GW just wants us all to buy more grav tanks, I don’t know. But it’s not relevant to which elite Primaris unit is in the Deathwing. Mechanically, it makes the most sense because they already have a veteran stat line with extra attacks and leadership, they have a built in invuln, and a damage 2 weapon.

[Brother Ramael]

I agree that BGV don't work with the standard DW modus operandi, but I have the feeling something is changing about that. 

We have: 1)  the exponential increase of Chaos owned space  2) emphasis that has been placed on some time on chaos legion ( DG/TS) 3) returning demon Primarchs + Guilliman (at least) ... I suspect GW learned something from HH and would like to bring back the old legion feeling.

In that case, having the DW break the "teleport strike" mold and going back to "linebreaker" role, at least partially, could happen.

Seriously, I have the feeling 10th edition will be Horus Heresy round 2.

[WARMASTER_]

@Master Sheol you’re placing to much stock into the Death company only fighting in one way...

 

Yes they teleport strike but that’s definitely only a single tactic they have in the arsenal! They rarely find a fallen and even when they do who says the Ravenwing is the best way to get there first?? They won’t always be, Different war zones will dictate vastly different strategies

 

Most of the time they’ll act as a generic first company, line breaking, clearing space hulks, boarding actions, the Land Raiders and the Dreadnoughts are also a great example of this, as they can’t teleport. People put way to much stock in “they only go into war from a Raven Wing teleport beacon” they don’t it would be entirely impractical

 

Also in lore Primaris can use Drop Pods, Land Raiders Thunder Hawks etc so they’ll generally be as mobile as the rest of the company

[Master Sheol]

@Master Sheol you’re placing to much stock into the Death company only fighting in one way...

 

Yes they teleport strike but that’s definitely only a single tactic they have in the arsenal! They rarely find a fallen and even when they do who says the Ravenwing is the best way to get there first?? They won’t always be, Different war zones will dictate vastly different strategies

 

Most of the time they’ll act as a generic first company, line breaking, clearing space hulks, boarding actions, the Land Raiders and the Dreadnoughts are also a great example of this, as they can’t teleport. People put way to much stock in “they only go into war from a Raven Wing teleport beacon” they don’t it would be entirely impractical

 

Also in lore Primaris can use Drop Pods, Land Raiders Thunder Hawks etc so they’ll generally be as mobile as the rest of the company

But in rules BGV cannot come in deep strike so they are not able to fit ALL the ways the DW have to deploy and for me it's a reason good enough to choose DWT/DWC/DWK over the BGV

[WrathOfTheLion]

The fact that you can only ever have 18 of them means that you would have to take Terminators as the main backbone anyways.