Grey Knights 9th edition wishlist

[Reskin]

I think I can relate to you waking dreamer. If nothing else, I don't care what they do, just make us competitive, and reward great strategic players. Tier 2 army with a high ceiling potential

[Skywrath]

Try high Tier 3 - if we were tier two, we wouldn't have a 26% winrate if we go second, according to Auspex Tactics.

[Waking Dreamer]

I think I can relate to you waking dreamer. If nothing else, I don't care what they do, just make us competitive, and reward great strategic players. Tier 2 army with a high ceiling potential

 

I actually think the +1W, and +1S on NFWs will go a long way on strengthening our army, but I'd also like additional tweaks to current rules/profiles/wargear to keep us up to standard with current Codex/Supplements. The latter part is not guaranteed however.  

 

This time last year, GK players on this forum pooled together their thoughts and suggestions for improvements for GKs in 8Ed, and this was before our RotD rules upgrade...so you can imagine how lacking GKs were - struggling to compete with their early 8Ed Codex rules, and NO Warp tides / new GK stratagems / Dominus Discipline to rely on. So the perceived changes needed for GKs was a lot.

 

What I contributed to the improvement suggestions was pre-RotD, so the rules/psychic powers I came up with were in the absence of the Warp Tides and the other new GK stuff. While the official rules were about 70-75% the power boost of what the forum came up with, that fact that they boosted GKs even that much, covering many problems that lasted for the entire 27 months duration starting from the 8Ed GK Codex...was nothing short of a miracle to us. And I think since I spent the time formatting those "wishes" into actual succinct rules before anything official came out - made me really appreciate the time and thought required to write "proper rules" for another person to actually play with - especially when you are starting with a blank sheet to begin with. So, while the official rules was overall weaker than what this forum had come up with, having spent the time myself to try and keep it balanced with other existing Codex standards/rules was not easy, and made me appreciate what we got in the end.

 

Now, in 9Ed we know GW is leaning heavily on army sub-factions and stratagems as the standard to flesh-out and buff the rules (eg Necron Codex overhaul) for armies. I'm thinking of doing the same creative exercise again, but this time with the <BROTHERHOODS> sub-faction as the primary feature. That is, 6-8 new WLTs, 6-8 new Relics and 6-12 new Stratagems. So, if I can translate what I'd like to see for our 9Ed GK Codex into those formatted rules/categories...then yeah, I think I can feel relatively hopeful of what I can expect - similar to the final result of their RotD upgrade.

 

But if I can't get the buffs I want into rules formatted as already seen in 9Ed (right now my head is spinning trying it), that also keeps me grounded in my personal expectations. I'm sure I spend at least 60-80% more time thinking about GK lore and rules, than an individual rules team member (who spends the rest of the time creating rules for every other army in WH40K), so if I am having a hard time creating these new GK rules with the standard of 9Ed armies that came before it...I need to ask myself, "How hard am I going to judge the rules team? What was the alternative set of rules that I came up with? What's the difference in quality?"

 

At least, that's how I plan to keep my own expectations in check...

[Reskin]

It saddens me that the rules team can make such an error as to the 8th edition codex to begin with. It's either they got bored, or hired bums off the street. They clearly aren't paid enough to care about consistency. But that's in the past.

 

It's not hard to balance Supplements once you have an Index available. As you should always be referencing the source material and referring back to it and measuring against it when writing rules.

 

Try high Tier 3 - if we were tier two, we wouldn't have a 26% winrate if we go second, according to Auspex Tactics.

 

I don't understand? I'm saying I'd like us to be T1-T2, I'm not saying we currently are this.

[Gnomeo]

It saddens me that the rules team can make such an error as to the 8th edition codex to begin with. It's either they got bored, or hired bums off the street. They clearly aren't paid enough to care about consistency. But that's in the past.

 

It's not hard to balance Supplements once you have an Index available. As you should always be referencing the source material and referring back to it and measuring against it when writing rules.

 

 

Try high Tier 3 - if we were tier two, we wouldn't have a 26% winrate if we go second, according to Auspex Tactics.

I don't understand? I'm saying I'd like us to be T1-T2, I'm not saying we currently are this.

Sorry but I find this incredibly short sighted.

 

7th was a :cuss show of way too many rules and bloat. Hence with the change to 8th they created an index. Yes this had reasonable balance however it ment that armies lacked character. 8th also had quite a few differences in core rules compared to 7th. This means a lot of variables.

 

Grey knights were some of the 1st to get a codex and at the beginning of were one pf the strongest armies easily tier 1 as you like to call it. Then as codex's were released creep occurred as the rules writers stretched there wings. I would like to point out space marines were lackluster until the supplements came out.

 

8th has also had the quickest responses in terms of faq's and erratas in gw history. If you like at 3rd and 4th you would be lucky if you got an faq in a 5year period

 

Also 8th has been the shortest edition in history. Which leads to the belief of it being a testing edition for 9th.

 

Currently yes there is some inbalance. we are still in a transitioning period. But gw rules writers and response to issues have been better than ever. I know in our current life we expect everything instantly but patients is a virtue.

 

Have faith and if it makes you feel better even chess is unbalanced. White win more often.

[Skywrath]

 

It saddens me that the rules team can make such an error as to the 8th edition codex to begin with. It's either they got bored, or hired bums off the street. They clearly aren't paid enough to care about consistency. But that's in the past.

 

It's not hard to balance Supplements once you have an Index available. As you should always be referencing the source material and referring back to it and measuring against it when writing rules.

Try high Tier 3 - if we were tier two, we wouldn't have a 26% winrate if we go second, according to Auspex Tactics.

I don't understand? I'm saying I'd like us to be T1-T2, I'm not saying we currently are this.

Sorry but I find this incredibly short sighted.

 

7th was a show of way too many rules and bloat. Hence with the change to 8th they created an index. Yes this had reasonable balance however it ment that armies lacked character. 8th also had quite a few differences in core rules compared to 7th. This means a lot of variables.

 

Grey knights were some of the 1st to get a codex and at the beginning of were one pf the strongest armies easily tier 1 as you like to call it. Then as codex's were released creep occurred as the rules writers stretched there wings. I would like to point out space marines were lackluster until the supplements came out.

 

8th has also had the quickest responses in terms of faq's and erratas in gw history. If you like at 3rd and 4th you would be lucky if you got an faq in a 5year period

 

Also 8th has been the shortest edition in history. Which leads to the belief of it being a testing edition for 9th.

 

Currently yes there is some inbalance. we are still in a transitioning period. But gw rules writers and response to issues have been better than ever. I know in our current life we expect everything instantly but patients is a virtue.

 

Have faith and if it makes you feel better even chess is unbalanced. White win more often.

 

 

Let's address the short-sighted bit first. We don't know when the new codex is dropping, and every month we don't get the new codex, is more time for the gap disparity between factions to be greater and greater.  Every change from 8th to 9th is *mostly* irrelevant (admittedly for some factions than others) because of how we play. Sure we still use storm-bolters, and maybe a lascannon/MM if you are running a LR/Dreadnought. That's about it - our psycannons are still tuned with psychic awakening in mind, as well as the incinerators/psilencers. Good for pre-9th edition marines, not so good now COMPARED to other things the factions can throw at us. For all intents and purposes we might not have got an FAQ and we would still be playing how we are now. 

 

So you will excuse me when I say, the 26% winrate is with 9th edition in mind, using GK players better than probably both of us (unless you happen to be a professional), that can probably play the army better than both of us. Yes, this is a game of chance, but that still doesn't rule out the other 74% of the time the other faction wins if it goes first (depending on faction, ofc). Now let's talk about competitive rankings - Grey Knights, currently are C tier. Don't think I have to explain why, I done that plenty of times. Sure we will have moments where we defy this rating, but empirically speaking (and that is how I meant my above statement to be conveyed as), the odds are not in our favour. That's pretty much what I said in my sentence - calling me short-sighted because we don't have our new codex yet, and I don't know what's in it is completely unfair. If you really want to call someone short-sighted - pin that on GW, that's seems to be a common trend with them, despite their apparent recent successed as you pointed out. I still find it inconcievable that they can't write a 6 word sentence in a space of 1m that would bring us in line. Tangentially speaking, I have a suspicion that our terminators because they are troops might stay that way and that's why we didn't get updated. 

 

On a personal note - despite the winrate, will that make me jump aboard the FOTM (Flavour of the Month) train? :cuss no. I love my Grey Knights, loved them ever since I layed my eyes on Draigo and read the fluff. Despite me sounding pessimistic, you can be absolutely sure I'm always a Grey Knight at heart. I think that's just about it.. 

[Reskin]

Skywrath, curious as to where you get your stats from? Goonhammer ranked them middle of Tier 4 out of 5 tiers and their rankings are taking from the ITC app that collects data from all tournaments around the world, and those stats are based of tournaments with more then 16 participants or something like that, correct me if I'm wrong, I'd have to go find the article again.

 

You are indeed right that we have 26% win rate going second or something close to, and you may remember I mentioned something about the weakness of GK's going second before those stats were published.

 

But we are much worse competitively. As I've said, my wish is be competitive.

 

Gnomeo, it's short sighted to just ignore the laziness of GW's rules writing sometimes. How many times are we going to let them get away with it, how many times are we going to say "they're a miniature company" No they aren't, they are a games company, much more then a miniature company, and with I pay upwards of $110 AUD for a RULES codex for my army, to play the game, I expect a certain level of quality control.

 

And I'd like to take this time to address and point out, I'm not selfish enough to just want GK's to be amazing, I'd like balanced rules for all armies. The way to do that, is to have a reference point and balance everything off of that. That won't take away the armies character. Relax.

 

The fact that GK's were one of the first codex released for 8th edition makes GW look worse, as seeing as it was one of the first, I think it was 4th or 5th in reality...

It should of been one of the Codex's that the following books were balanced off.

 

Instead, it was ignored, and then every codex released after that you seen power creep. I'd like for the supplements/codex's following on now to be reference to the Necron's and SM codex's respectively. Paying close attention to power creep. Power creep can be addressed in the form of stat nerfs on units or weapons. Given that the statistics for tournaments are widely available to anyone who wants to know this information. And GW should be one of the few that should WANT to know this information, even if they have to pay a third party to collect or release data to them. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Reskin

[Skywrath]

Skywrath, curious as to where you get your stats from? Goonhammer ranked them middle of Tier 4 out of 5 tiers and their rankings are taking from the ITC app that collects data from all tournaments around the world, and those stats are based of tournaments with more then 16 participants or something like that, correct me if I'm wrong, I'd have to go find the article again.

 

You are indeed right that we have 26% win rate going second or something close to, and you may remember I mentioned something about the weakness of GK's going second before those stats were published.

 

But we are much worse competitively. As I've said, my wish is be competitive. 

 

Same source as you are, although for clarification, I meant to say a 26% winrate if we go second, not overall. As for goonhammer, I wouldn't take their opinion too seriously though - the only real judge is time and experience. When you review all 20 or so factions in such a large game as Warhammer, you are just asking to be second-guessed and your opinions contested. So C tier (or low T3, more specifically), is where I suspect they would be.

 

That being said, this talk is heading slightly towards off-topic territory (competitive play vs wishlisting), perhaps we should move it back to wishlisting territory?

[Gnomeo]

Seeing as this is going off topic.

 

@skywrath I was not quoting you I was quoting reskin however there are a few issues in your argument if you want me to explain those in the appropriate forum I am happy to.

 

@reskin I appreciate you clearly have a lot of frustration with grey knight I am further happy to talk through things in appropriate forum. However I do feel its unfair to be as hard on the rule writers as your are being. Having done some rules writing for wargames my self balance is not an easy thing to achieve plus we do not know GW's roadmap

[Skywrath]

That being said, do you think we will see a Grey Knight command squad akin to the Dark Angels? 

[Waking Dreamer]

That being said, do you think we will see a Grey Knight command squad akin to the Dark Angels? 

 

What would that entail?

 

If the detachment has an Infantry Grand Master as a HQ, Paladins, Apothecary and Ancient don't take up an Elite slot?

[Reskin]

 

That being said, do you think we will see a Grey Knight command squad akin to the Dark Angels? 

 

What would that entail?

 

If the detachment has an Infantry Grand Master as a HQ, Paladins, Apothecary and Ancient don't take up an Elite slot?

 

It would likely be the lone paragon or something. On that note, I wish they'd make Brotherhood champion to the Elites category.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

 

That being said, do you think we will see a Grey Knight command squad akin to the Dark Angels?

 

 

What would that entail?

 

If the detachment has an Infantry Grand Master as a HQ, Paladins, Apothecary and Ancient don't take up an Elite slot?

It would likely be the lone paragon or something. On that note, I wish they'd make Brotherhood champion to the Elites category.

If Brotherhood Champion goes to the Elite slot it would probably lose it's invulnerable save though. 4++ is granted by its Iron Halo, which is a privilege for being a HQ. So would it be worth it then I wonder?

[Reskin]

 

 

 

That being said, do you think we will see a Grey Knight command squad akin to the Dark Angels?

 

What would that entail?

 

If the detachment has an Infantry Grand Master as a HQ, Paladins, Apothecary and Ancient don't take up an Elite slot?

It would likely be the lone paragon or something. On that note, I wish they'd make Brotherhood champion to the Elites category.

If Brotherhood Champion goes to the Elite slot it would probably lose it's invulnerable save though. 4++ is granted by its Iron Halo, which is a privilege for being a HQ. So would it be worth it then I wonder?

 

Very true, I can't answer that for sure, It would depend on how good his other stats were.

[Skywrath]

 

That being said, do you think we will see a Grey Knight command squad akin to the Dark Angels? 

 

What would that entail?

 

If the detachment has an Infantry Grand Master as a HQ, Paladins, Apothecary and Ancient don't take up an Elite slot?

 

 

Taken from the Dark Angels FAQ: 

 

Command Squad: For each Deathwing Command Squad unit included in a Detachment, one Deathwing Apothecary unit can be included in that Detachment without taking up a Battlefield Role slot.

 

So there are five characters (to my knowledge) that can be included in that Command Squad: Champion, Apothecary, Ancient, Captain and another guy I'm forgetting. So for us, those would be: Apothecary, Ancient, Champion (if he's elite), Captain. Alternatively, you could just include one of the four in one of those squads, and replace the rest with terminators. Imagine us mixing those characters with Paladins!

[Waking Dreamer]

I think 50/50 we get:

 

- Masters of The Chapter upgrades, i.e. better Chaplain, Apothecary, Brotherhood Champion, Ancient, Grand Master buffs.

- Another psychic discipline (e.g. Librarius or another GK specific one - preferably the latter as my current GK prides tells me we could do better with another unique one of our own).

 

I can see Master upgrades being a SM Codex exclusive system like Combat Doctrines. Are there any hints that Death Guard are getting their own equivalent Character Upgrade system?

 

Interestingly, I feel we could have more in common with Chaos SMs than Codex SMs! When it comes to Army Rules structure that is. We already know Death Guard have their own 7 Plague Companies, and the Thousand Sons have their 9 Sorcerer Cults! GKs getting rules/buffs from our 8 Brotherhoods could be very thematically fitting!

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Very true, I can't answer that for sure, It would depend on how good his other stats were.

 

 

 

It's usually a downgrade in stats (if there are changes), when a unit is bumped down to Elites from HQ. 

 

 

 

 

 

Taken from the Dark Angels FAQ: 

 

Command Squad: For each Deathwing Command Squad unit included in a Detachment, one Deathwing Apothecary unit can be included in that Detachment without taking up a Battlefield Role slot.

 

So there are five characters (to my knowledge) that can be included in that Command Squad: Champion, Apothecary, Ancient, Captain and another guy I'm forgetting. So for us, those would be: Apothecary, Ancient, Champion (if he's elite), Captain. Alternatively, you could just include one of the four in one of those squads, and replace the rest with terminators. Imagine us mixing those characters with Paladins!

 

 

By that description it feels like a unique rule for DA's Deathwing - unless another SM Chapter from Codex SM also has a similar rule? 

 

Otherwise, I'm not sure it would translate to a variant unit for the GK terminator squad. 

[Skywrath]

 

 

 

 

Taken from the Dark Angels FAQ: 

 

Command Squad: For each Deathwing Command Squad unit included in a Detachment, one Deathwing Apothecary unit can be included in that Detachment without taking up a Battlefield Role slot.

 

So there are five characters (to my knowledge) that can be included in that Command Squad: Champion, Apothecary, Ancient, Captain and another guy I'm forgetting. So for us, those would be: Apothecary, Ancient, Champion (if he's elite), Captain. Alternatively, you could just include one of the four in one of those squads, and replace the rest with terminators. Imagine us mixing those characters with Paladins!

 

 

By that description it feels like a unique rule for DA's Deathwing - unless another SM Chapter from Codex SM also has a similar rule? 

 

Otherwise, I'm not sure it would translate to a variant unit for the GK terminator squad. 

 

 

Officially, probably is. However I'm sure many chapters will have their own different, chapter-specific variant of that, in some form or another, especially if you consider how they are homogenising marines (even though we aren't "marines" anymore). 

[Corvus Fortis]

Paladins were our "command squad" in 7th. Maybe, we will get a free apothecary and ancient for every paladin squad we take. 

[Reskin]

Paladins were our "command squad" in 7th. Maybe, we will get a free apothecary and ancient for every paladin squad we take. 

Long before 7th, but true none the less. Lets hope. A paladin squad used to contain a banner and apothecary regardless.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Reskin

[Gnomeo]

Controversial I would like a 0-1 limt on paladins. But make them insane. In the lore the stuff the go through to become a paladin puts to shame captains from other chapters.

 

On a slightly separate note I would love gw to bring back 0-1 for some units

[Reskin]

A lot of people would hate you for that suggestion. They already think GW is too restricting on army building.

 

But I'd secretly agree with you, ;) just don't tell anyone. What ever is in the best interests of balancing the game.

[Corvus Fortis]

Paladins are already 0-1 in my lists, so...

[Waking Dreamer]

Are people expecting the 1 Grand Master per detachment rule coming our way?

[Waking Dreamer]

Draigo will need his keyword changed to SUPREME GRAND MASTER so that you can at least have:

1. Draigo

2. Voldus / GM / GMNDK

 

^ In the one detachment while maintaining the 0-1 Grand Master per detachment rule.