Grey Knights 9th edition wishlist

[Reskin]

Interesting, did you ever play with the faction objective cards Skywrath, where you had faction specific conditions to get VP?

[Skywrath]

Naturally, why do you ask?

[Reskin]

Because there were lots of very good themey ones in that pack if I recall. Something like successfully manifest 3 powers for 1VP, 5 for 3VP or something like that.

 

And basically all the ones you mentioned were part of those cards, like kill a daemon unit for VP which I always burned because I’ve never got to verse a daemon army in my life, closest I got was obliterators from chaos marines.

 

So I thought you got inspiration from those. I’d have to dig up my old packs

 

I imagine something like oath of moment, except replace never failing moral with successfully manifest a power for 1VP,

 

I don’t have a clue what other codex or supplements for SM secondaries are, so I would imagine take those, and tweak?

Edited December 20, 2020 by Reskin

[Skywrath]

Philosophically, following trends/patterns and getting inspiration are different. However with 9th, it seems to be the opposite holding true with GW and their approach, at least concerning secondaries. So my statement was more of a trend, rather than inspiration, because one could make the argument that GW doesn't have a lot of that floating around. So let's look at the above:

 

1. Abhor the Witch, 3 other secondaries that are the exact copy/paste of that ability such as Suffer not the Alien, Grind them Down, and that Demon one I mentioned above (which I'm about 99% sure will be one of said secondaries). You can be sure there will be more of these coming just different categories. 

 

2. I do appreciate how the second statement is trying to answer the previous question (in the other thread) of when did I start playing. In partial response to this, I had no idea these "secondaries" were actually a thing, with difference to point n1, it was a example of the trends I find. Hope that answers that. 

[Corvus Fortis]

I would like to see psychic communion, deeds of legand and teleport attack to be transormed to secondaries. Destroy the Daemon would be super-specific and no witness! is a copy-paste from assassinate. I would like to see it to be a stratagem with anti-hero bonus in close combat (like in kill team). As for Rites of Exorcism - won't even mention it. I don't know how such a bad objective could be invented. But it will be interesting to see it as some sort of psychic ritual on different objectives.

[Reskin]

Yeah I mean it’s very unimaginative, but it’s probably needed to balance out abhor the witch’s insane potency. 15 free VPsounds good to me, besides there’s a chance opponents can deny with stratagems, relics or abilities.

 

Even if it was 1VP per cast, it would be pretty easy to max at 15 but not guaranteed.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Reskin

[librisrouge]

I know it is probably of mixed feeling here, but I’d love to get centurions. Seems like you could just setup and additional sprue and give them GK special weapons.

[Skywrath]

I know it is probably of mixed feeling here, but I’d love to get centurions. Seems like you could just setup and additional sprue and give them GK special weapons.

 

Maybe a Grey Knight specific unit that instead of grav weapons/lascannons, we get the option with psilencers/psycannons? That would be absolutely sweet!

 

Just realised something rather interesting. Seeing how Grey Knights don't have the option to use Lightning Claws, and our equivalent are Falchions, do we think it's likely that we will get the option to re-roll failed wounds, like the LC counterpart?

[Telepatrick]

 

I know it is probably of mixed feeling here, but I’d love to get centurions. Seems like you could just setup and additional sprue and give them GK special weapons.

 

 

Maybe a Grey Knight specific unit that instead of grav weapons/lascannons, we get the option with psilencers/psycannons? That would be absolutely sweet!

 

Just realised something rather interesting. Seeing how Grey Knights don't have the option to use Lightning Claws, and our equivalent are Falchions, do we think it's likely that we will get the option to re-roll failed wounds, like the LC counterpart?

Or GK specific Nemesis Force Wall-grinder drill :D

[Waking Dreamer]

Masters of the Warp Update:

 

Tide of Shadows

- GK Psykers (including Vehicles) gain benefits of Light Cover while out in the open.

- GK Psykers (including Vehicles) gain benefits of Dense Cover while on or wholly within a terrain feature.

- If GK vehicles that do not have the Psyker keyword but are transporting GK Psykers or within 3" of a GK Psyker, they receive the above benefits as well. 

 

Tide of Escalation

- The Smite Psychic power inflicts an additional mortal wound.

- Units with the Purifying Flame ability inflicts D6 mortal wound where mortal wound rolls of less than 3 count as 3.

- A unit equipped with the Banner of Refining Flame inflicts D6 mortal wound were mortal wound rolls of less than 3 count as 3.

 

Tide of Convergence

- All Psi weapons (including those equipped on vehicles) receive: +1 Strength, +1 Armour Penetration, +1 Damage.

 

Tide of Fury

- All GK Psykers receive: +1 to Charge rolls; while in combat gain re-roll 1s to wound, +1 Damage.

[Waking Dreamer]

Having watched the new Drukhari beatdown on a competitive GK list in a recent batrep:

 

 

and seeing them also table an even tougher, more elite competitive Custodes list in this batrep:

 

I've come to think the general profile changes below for our GKs as fine:

 

GK Power Armour units:

- W2 A2/3

- Strike Squads keep ObSec

- Purgation Squads ignore -1 to hit penalty when moving & shooting heavy weapons

- Purifier Squads have 6" D6 MW Smite min. 3MW in Escalation; min. 4MW vs Daemons

- Interceptor Squads keep 12" movement, and have once per game 30" shunt movement

 

Terminator units:

- W3 A3/4 keep ObSec

 

Paladin units:

- WS2+ W4 A4 have Bodyguard Rule

 

^ With these changes being said, the main stat differences between Firstborn and Primaris SM would disappear for GKs. I think win-win for those who want Primaris GK AND for those who don't. The main reasons to start a (possible / probable / eventual) Primaris GK army in the future, is if you want Primaris-only strats, vehicles, wargear and model scaling.

[Archadeus]

To be fair, jake isn't exactly the best grey knight player so it's hard to take that game seriously. The advice at the end was the most I got out of that.

 

As for the rules wish list, I second all of it. Great stat boosts that make alot of sense. Especially the body gaurd rule and ignoring the heavy penalty on purgs

[The Woodsman]

I agree that those (let's face it slight and very much in tune with what other factions have been getting) would really bring us on par with 9th Edition books. Our damage output isn't what is lacking, but durability and a little extra utility on specialist units definitely are. I'd like to see a re-roll 1's to wound aura to be honest, and would be happy to see the Champion lose out a little on sword stances (not that they are that good anyways) and maybe get an aura for melee, kind of like the CSM Champ. It could even be like an Inspiring Presence kind of deal where he picks a Core unit that gets re-rolls to wound for the turn, instead of an aura. Could be thematic since that's kind of their role on the battlefield and within the Chapter and would also avoid being a copy-paste of Lieutenant or Necron Lord rules. Just 'cause I love the Champ and would like to see him be more useful. 

[Waking Dreamer]

Just having a look at the stats for the new sister's Morvenn Vahl in Warsuit model, she seems really strong and could be lynchpin in any SoB army. Granted as a named Character she is a one-per-army model. Though, considering if our speculation is correct about the Grand Master in NDK eventually being limited to one per detachment - I could see him getting buffed up with stronger / special rules like Morvenn Vahl!

[Corvus Fortis]

NDKs really needs that rule that halves all incoming damage.

[Skywrath]

On the topic of rules - do we see Kaldor getting the Supreme Commander Keyword, on top of re-roll hits and wounds of one, as well as in the command phase giving one GK unit full re-rolls to wound and hit?

[Archadeus]

SUPREME COMMANDER DRAIGO IN A NEMESIS DREADKNIGHT LETS GO!!!

[librisrouge]

NDKs really needs that rule that halves all incoming damage.

Or at least the -1 dmg that dreadnoughts get.

[Waking Dreamer]

SUPREME COMMANDER DRAIGO IN A NEMESIS DREADKNIGHT LETS GO!!!

 

LORD KALDOR DRAIGO IN A NEMESIS DREADKNIGHT

• W14-8 M8" BS2+ A5 WS2+ S6 T6 Ld9 Sv 1+/4++/5+++
• W 7-4 M7"  BS3+ A4
• W 3-1 M6"  BS4+ A3

Titan Greatsword

Each time an attack is made with this weapon, select one of the profiles below to make that attack with:

• Descending Strike S+4 AP-4 D3+3 Damage
• Sweeping Slash SUser AP-2 D3 Damage (Each time an attack is made with this weapon profile, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1).   

Special Rules

• Chapter Master - Select one friendly GK CORE or CHARACTER unit within 6", that unit re-roll hits until your next Command phase.
• Rites of Battle (aura) - Friendly GK CORE units within 6" re-roll 1s to hit.
• Daemon Bane (aura) - Friendly GK units within 6" re-roll Damage rolls vs DAEMONS in the Shooting and Fight phase.
• Daemon-Slayer - If your Warlord wounds a DAEMON or CHAOS unit in the Shooting or Fight phase, they must subtract 1 from any invulnerable saving throws made against the attack.
• Dreadknight teleporter -Teleport Strike.
• Teleport Shunt - Once per game in your Movement phase this model may move up to 30" instead of it's normal movement.

Stratagem - Mortarion's True Name [2CP]

• Use this stratagem in your psychic phase.
• Select the MORTARION model when he is within 18" of LORD KALDOR DRAIGO, that model's Movement characteristic is reduced by half (rounding up), with it's Strength, Toughness and Attacks characteristic reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 1), until your next psychic phase.
• You can only use this stratagem once per game.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Waking Dreamer

[Sothalor]

If there is a range-wide revamp/overhaul, I do hope the Nemesis Dreadknight gets a major overhaul.

 

I'll say I'm not... vehemently opposed to the concept of an exo-suit for Terminator Armour to empower its user to go toe-to-toe with a Greater Daemon or some terminus-level threat. I do think that path loses some of the original appeal of the Grey Knights for me, which is the image of a man (yes, a heavily augmented and engineered man if we're being pedantic) standing against the monsters. There was an element of David vs. Goliath, St. George vs. the Dragon, Gandalf vs. the Balrog - a mythological appeal.

 

The Dreadknight moves away from that angle. However, I understand - that this being a game that increasingly incorporates showcase centerpieces and spectacle - why GW wants a kit like it. So let's assume that the Dreadknight as a unit/concept isn't going anywhere.

 

That said, I think the current kit is underwhelming, even leaving aside the memed-to-death "baby carrier" aesthetic. Multiple essays have been written about that by now.

 

There are other aspects of the kit that direly need an update. It's essentially a static mono-pose kit with no practical ways to repose the legs so it's not just standing still upright. There's no articulation in the elbows.

 

Unless you do some extensive sawing and green-stuffing - beyond what I think most people are willing to attempt, they all end up looking extremely similar.

 

If there is a revamp, I hope they take some major cues from the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought in terms of limb and joint design. That kit has some remarkably clever ways to allow for pose variation, with some pre-set pegs and holes for convenience in assembly, but which are very easily removed if you'd prefer to change it from the default pose.

 

An update along those lines would allow for much more model-to-model variation as well as better visually conveying what a Dreadknight is capable of in-universe.

[Archadeus]

 

SUPREME COMMANDER DRAIGO IN A NEMESIS DREADKNIGHT LETS GO!!!

 

LORD KALDOR DRAIGO IN A NEMESIS DREADKNIGHT

• W14-8 M8" BS2+ A5 WS2+ S6 T6 Ld9 Sv 1+/4++/5+++
• W 7-4 M7"  BS3+ A4
• W 3-1 M6"  BS4+ A3

Titan Greatsword

Each time an attack is made with this weapon, select one of the profiles below to make that attack with:

• Descending Strike S+4 AP-4 D3+3 Damage
• Sweeping Slash SUser AP-2 D3 Damage (Each time an attack is made with this weapon profile, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1).   

Special Rules

• Chapter Master - Select one friendly GK CORE or CHARACTER unit within 6", that unit re-roll hits until your next Command phase.
• Rites of Battle (aura) - Friendly GK CORE units within 6" re-roll 1s to hit.
• Daemon Bane (aura) - Friendly GK units within 6" re-roll Damage rolls vs DAEMONS in the Shooting and Fight phase.
• Daemon-Slayer - If your Warlord wounds a DAEMON or CHAOS unit in the Shooting or Fight phase, they must subtract 1 from any invulnerable saving throws made against the attack.
• Dreadknight teleporter -Teleport Strike.
• Teleport Shunt - Once per game in your Movement phase this model may move up to 30" instead of it's normal movement.

Stratagem - Mortarion's True Name [2CP]

• Use this stratagem in your psychic phase.
• Select the MORTARION model when he is within 18" of LORD KALDOR DRAIGO, that model's Movement characteristic is reduced by half (rounding up), with it's Strength, Toughness and Attacks characteristic reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 1), until your next psychic phase.
• You can only use this stratagem once per game.

 

Only thing i would change is S8 and T7 just because haha. But Yes Yes and Yes to this. Well played sir. Now the only question is... how many points would he cost?

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Only thing i would change is S8 and T7 just because haha. But Yes Yes and Yes to this. Well played sir. Now the only question is... how many points would he cost?

 

I was very tempted to give him S7 T7 at least.

 

However, in trying to get into GW's way of thinking through patterns from other already existing models - I've found that when a model consists of one single imperium infantry piloting an "open-top" vehicle or mech-type walker, GW adds +2 Toughness of the base infantry Toughness. Examples include:

- Sisters in Paragon Warsuit = T3 +2 = T5

- Primaris in Invictus Warsuit = T4 +2 = T6

- Logan Grimnar on Stormrider = T4 +2 = T6

- GKT in Nemesis Dreadknight = T4 +2 = T6

 

Of course, if our Codex decides to bump NDK base stat to T7 - all the better, but for now to keep it consistent I left it at S6 T6. It also fits thematically in a sense, that a NDK significantly closes the gap in physical stats between a greater daemon and GK infantry - but not to the point of overpowering them completely. A GK in a NDK still needs to rely on his combat skills, psychic abilities and banishing techniques - all working together to get the job done imo.

 

As for the points, considering the benchmarks of other Supreme Commanders or semi-equivalents:

1. Mortarion = 490 pts

2. Magnus = 465 pts

4. Silent King = 450 pts

5. Guilliman = 380 pts 

6. Void Dragon = 350 pts

7. Ghazghkull Thraka = 300 pts

8. Grimnar on Stormrider =180 pts

9. Vahl in the Purgator Warsuit = ???

 

10. Draigo in a Nemesis Dreadknight = ???

 

Considering he would have also have access to the H.Psycannon, H. Incinerator, Gat.Psilencer as well as get bonuses from any of the updated Warp Tides as mentioned before:  

 

Masters of the Warp Update:

 

Tide of Shadows

- GK Psykers (including Vehicles) gain benefits of Light Cover while out in the open.

- GK Psykers (including Vehicles) gain benefits of Dense Cover while on or wholly within a terrain feature.

- If GK vehicles that do not have the Psyker keyword but are transporting GK Psykers or within 3" of a GK Psyker, they receive the above benefits as well. 

 

Tide of Escalation

- The Smite Psychic power inflicts an additional mortal wound.

- Units with the Purifying Flame ability inflicts D6 mortal wound where mortal wound rolls of less than 3 count as 3.

- A unit equipped with the Banner of Refining Flame inflicts D6 mortal wound were mortal wound rolls of less than 3 count as 3.

 

Tide of Convergence

- All Psi weapons (including those equipped on vehicles) receive: +1 Strength, +1 Armour Penetration, +1 Damage.

 

Tide of Fury

- All GK Psykers receive: +1 to Charge rolls; while in combat gain re-roll 1s to wound, +1 Damage.

 

Hmm, not sure at the moment...anyone else's thoughts?

[Waking Dreamer]

Okay, after spending some more time thinking about it I've decided to break it down as the following:

 

For a starting Base:

185pts = GMNDK

 

 

Supreme Commander buffs:

30pts = +2W, +1Sv, 5+++

15pts = Titan Greatsword

15pts = Chapter Master buff

15pts = DK Teleporter + Teleport Shunt

10pts = Daemon Bane, Daemon-Slayer

10pts = Additional Psychic power and DtW

 

Optional extras:

25pts = Heavy Psycannon

20pts = Gatling Psilencer

20pts = Heavy Incinerator

 

So, for total points:

280pts = Base Kaldor Draigo in a NDK

325pts = Upgraded with 2 Heavy Special weapons

 

[Brother Sidonius]

If there is a range-wide revamp/overhaul, I do hope the Nemesis Dreadknight gets a major overhaul.

 

I'll say I'm not... vehemently opposed to the concept of an exo-suit for Terminator Armour to empower its user to go toe-to-toe with a Greater Daemon or some terminus-level threat. I do think that path loses some of the original appeal of the Grey Knights for me, which is the image of a man (yes, a heavily augmented and engineered man if we're being pedantic) standing against the monsters. There was an element of David vs. Goliath, St. George vs. the Dragon, Gandalf vs. the Balrog - a mythological appeal.

 

The Dreadknight moves away from that angle. However, I understand - that this being a game that increasingly incorporates showcase centerpieces and spectacle - why GW wants a kit like it. So let's assume that the Dreadknight as a unit/concept isn't going anywhere.

 

That said, I think the current kit is underwhelming, even leaving aside the memed-to-death "baby carrier" aesthetic. Multiple essays have been written about that by now.

 

There are other aspects of the kit that direly need an update. It's essentially a static mono-pose kit with no practical ways to repose the legs so it's not just standing still upright. There's no articulation in the elbows.

 

Unless you do some extensive sawing and green-stuffing - beyond what I think most people are willing to attempt, they all end up looking extremely similar.

 

If there is a revamp, I hope they take some major cues from the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought in terms of limb and joint design. That kit has some remarkably clever ways to allow for pose variation, with some pre-set pegs and holes for convenience in assembly, but which are very easily removed if you'd prefer to change it from the default pose.

 

An update along those lines would allow for much more model-to-model variation as well as better visually conveying what a Dreadknight is capable of in-universe.

 

I hope you went for that Lead Game Designer job because I love all of those ideas! The Dreadknights make sense if you need to fight daemon engines but when Grey Knights fight a greater daemon there's something so fitting about it being a recreation of Gandalf vs Balrog.

 

And just to add my 2 cents to the thread, Kaldor Draigo should 100% be a Supreme Commander and I love the idea of Dreadknights looking like psychic Imperial Knights with a lean profile. Basically the 3D printable Daemon-Slayer Knight Mark 1 in other words (maybe GW got it removed because it was too close to their new Dreadknight model!)

[INKS]

Can we do an army of renown Dreadknight army? Because that I would build!