Grey Knights 9th edition wishlist

[Skywrath]

Apparently some of the secondaries are getting reworked in the new 2021 Chapter Approved - here's hoping they rework to Abhor the Witch. Bleeding 15VP per match-up is NOT fun with 1/2W models.

 

Assuming the above holds true, would you say this proposed change would be balanced?

 

1. Abhor the Witch (name WIP) - Score 2VP if you successfully deny a psychic test from the enemy PSYKER in the psychic phase. This secondary objective cannot be scored through other alternative warlord traits/strategems (e.g. Watched or Spark of Divinity) and must be scored through a deny the witch dice roll.

 

Given how the meta isn't relying on psykers too much (with the exception of DG perhaps), this secondary is fairly balanced. However thoughts?

Edited May 25, 2021 by Skywrath

[Waking Dreamer]

How would an army stop a psychic cast from an enemy psyker (with only DtW rolls) - while not having any friendly Psykers in their own army? 

[Skywrath]

Oops, disregard that bit, that was a mistake, editing that out. With that clarified, would you say that would be balanced?

[Brother Sidonius]

I love the idea of a secondary based on denying the witch, although I wouldn't add any restrictions to how you resisted the psychic power. Resisting 7 psychic powers for factions with those abilities is hard enough as it is

[Skywrath]

I love the idea of a secondary based on denying the witch, although I wouldn't add any restrictions to how you resisted the psychic power. Resisting 7 psychic powers for factions with those abilities is hard enough as it is

 

Flipside of that argument is that it is too easy to deny the psychic powers. I'm not versed in the other factions but would you say paying 1CP just to auto-deny that power is too little (Spark of Divinity)? Also if you are running a WL trait (Watched) from the Dark Angels, you also do that for no cost. Then there are modifiers such as Grey Knights - an innate +1, and Empyric Surge, Sanctic Shard. On top of this, there are also plenty of units that subtract 1 or more to your psychic tests or more, such as the Hounds of Morkai from SW and Sisters of Silence for the Custodes. The Necrons toolkit in general is anti-psyker as well. And those are methods that I'm aware about - I'm sure there are other ways Xenos of Chaos can do the same. Having all those methods to "deny" or make the psychic test fail would make this an easy secondary to pick, however with the caveat if either player was running a PSYKER unit.

 

Not only this (and I hope GW doesn't read this) but by adding this secondary you are incentivising people to use psykers in their lists which then opens up a whole plethora of ideas in terms of theorycrafting. It has been my impression that just by adding a librarian in your lists, you are making that game a lot more fun to play.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Skywrath

[techsoldaten]

 

I love the idea of a secondary based on denying the witch, although I wouldn't add any restrictions to how you resisted the psychic power. Resisting 7 psychic powers for factions with those abilities is hard enough as it is

 

Flipside of that argument is that it is too easy to deny the psychic powers. I'm not versed in the other factions but would you say paying 1CP just to auto-deny that power is too little (Spark of Divinity)? Also if you are running a WL trait (Watched) from the Dark Angels, you also do that for no cost. Then there are modifiers such as Grey Knights - an innate +1, and Empyric Surge, Sanctic Shard. On top of this, there are also plenty of units that subtract 1 or more to your psychic tests or more, such as the Hounds of Morkai from SW and Sisters of Silence for the Custodes. The Necrons toolkit in general is anti-psyker as well. And those are methods that I'm aware about - I'm sure there are other ways Xenos of Chaos can do the same. Having all those methods to "deny" or make the psychic test fail would make this an easy secondary to pick, however with the caveat if either player was running a PSYKER unit.

 

Not only this (and I hope GW doesn't read this) but by adding this secondary you are incentivising people to use psykers in their lists which then opens up a whole plethora of ideas in terms of theorycrafting. It has been my impression that just by adding a librarian in your lists, you are making that game a lot more fun to play.

 

 

Not convinced there's a problem here.

 

This secondary is for armies with psykers. Some armies will never find it useful, and it's situational. Only way to max it out is when you and your opponent each have more than one psyker. And that would mean just about every DTW has to be successful.

 

For Grey Knights, most of our units can DTW. Great against Thousand Sons and Deamons, horrible against World Eaters and Khorne.

 

Is using a Stratagem the same as Denying the Witch? Not sure, but there's nothing wrong with letting an opponent use CP to score secondary points. That just means there's another Stratagem they won't be using, very low odds this in itself could change the outcome of a game.

 

Anyways, it's nice to think we won't be giving opponents 15 VPs just for showing up anymore. But I don't think this secondary will be popular, it's too situational. I'd rather take secondaries that are more likely to be maxed out against any opponent.

[Waking Dreamer]

The original intention of Abhor the Witch was to balance non-Psyker armies vs Psyker armies. As psyker armies would literally have an extra phase to buff, move, shoot, smite etc. that the opposing army could do minimal/nothing about. The question is, does a secondary for such scenarios (psyker vs non-psyker armies) still need to be there? If you think the GW will want a secondary for such a scenario (psyker vs non-psyker army), in what iteration would it not completely screw over a GK army?

 

Example,

 

Abhor the Witch

1. You cannot select this secondary objective if your army includes any PSYKER units.

2. Score 2 victory points at the end of the battle for each enemy PSYKER CHARACTER unit that is destroyed and 1 victory points for every other enemy PSYKER unit that is destroyed.

 

So for your opponent to score max 15 VP it would require something like: destroying 3 GK Characters + 9 GK units. Is that still too much of a hardship for GK to win against?

 

If so, maybe an added Secondary specifically for Psychic-heavy armies to compensate:

 

Power of the Witch Mind 

Score 1 victory point for every successful Psychic cast without suffering a Perils of the Warp.

 

^ This makes it useful and reliable against any army, while allowing them to use whatever Stratagems, WLT, Relics etc. to prevent you getting max VP. 

[Archadeus]

I think it's simple, 3 for a character and 1 for a unit. Why am I giving up 2 points for 5 marines.

[Waking Dreamer]

I think it's simple, 3 for a character and 1 for a unit. Why am I giving up 2 points for 5 marines.

 

So, 6 units + 3 Characters, or 9 units + 2 Characters to max out their 15 VPs. I think that seems reasonable enough.

[Cleon]

Personally I think Abhor the witch is a real problem when you have Psychic armies and armies with one or two psykers, any kill score rule that allows Grey knights to defend it makes it useless in 95% plus of games, so how about a more core rethink?

 

Abhor the Witch

1. You cannot select this secondary objective if your army includes any PSYKER units.

2. You score victory points at the end of the game only if the enemy has no PSYKER CHARACTER or PSYKER MONSTER units remaining, 5 points if one was destroyed, 10 for two, 15 for 3+

 

So you have to remove all 'key' psykers from the enemy to score (it's abhor the witch, not dislike the witch), makes it easier to 'bank' a low score if the enemy has one qualifying psyker (a normal list), but more of an risk/reward prospect against multiple psykers.

[Waking Dreamer]

Personally I think Abhor the witch is a real problem when you have Psychic armies and armies with one or two psykers, any kill score rule that allows Grey knights to defend it makes it useless in 95% plus of games, so how about a more core rethink?

 

Abhor the Witch

1. You cannot select this secondary objective if your army includes any PSYKER units.

2. You score victory points at the end of the game only if the enemy has no PSYKER CHARACTER or PSYKER MONSTER units remaining, 5 points if one was destroyed, 10 for two, 15 for 3+

 

So you have to remove all 'key' psykers from the enemy to score (it's abhor the witch, not dislike the witch), makes it easier to 'bank' a low score if the enemy has one qualifying psyker (a normal list), but more of an risk/reward prospect against multiple psykers.

 

^ If I am understanding the wording correctly, does this mean as long as there is at least 1 remaining enemy PSYKER CHARACTER/MONSTER left at the end of the game...they get 0 VP?

 

So, for example:

- vs. a SM army with 1 Librarian, if they destroy him they get 5VP.

- vs. a SM army with 2 Librarians, if they destroy only 1 they get 0VP.

- vs. a GK army with 4 psyker Characters, if they destroy 3 they get 0 VP.

[Skywrath]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/27/5-of-the-biggest-points-drops-from-chapter-approved-2021/

 

Codex art released with the updated points!

 

Let's :cussing go! Very happy with the art, looks like it's the collectors edition for me this time around. Points look to be roughly the same - I think the interceptors went up 3 points, same with both Ancients. All forms of Land Raiders are now 20pts cheaper as well as the stormraven. Thought: What if we will have strategems designed to use those models in a way that other chapters/factions can't? 

 

Art doesn't look like we got primaris yet - I know a few of my GK brothers here will be happy with that. Says codex will release in the coming months, so three months tops?

 

Discuss.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Skywrath

[Waking Dreamer]

Twin Falchions are still 4 points more than all other options bar Daemonhammer.

 

Just saying...

[librisrouge]

I look forward to all the number crunchers having a go at this but aside from the Land Raiders (which applied to all marines) I don't see anything particularly significant in the changes.

[G8Keeper]

I think it's important to remember that these are "get you by" points until the codex is released and so reflect the current codex rules, I think.  The confusion comes with the codex release, do we use the codex or chapter approved points? I'm unclear.

Edited May 27, 2021 by G8Keeper

[Archadeus]

Looks like everything is the same except land raiders. But as far as the codex!!! OH HOW LONG IVE WAITED FOR 3 WOUND TERMINATORS. Please be kind to us codex creep. I'm so hyped I can't wait for my lists to be playable again.

[Waking Dreamer]

I think it's important to remember that these are "get you by" points until the codex is released and so reflect the current codex rules, I think.  The confusion comes with the codex release, do we use the codex or chapter approved points? I'm unclear.

 

From what I read, Chapter Approved as soon as we have the new Codex rules.

[techsoldaten]

Looks like everything is the same except land raiders. But as far as the codex!!! OH HOW LONG IVE WAITED FOR 3 WOUND TERMINATORS. Please be kind to us codex creep. I'm so hyped I can't wait for my lists to be playable again.

 

As far as I can tell, Land Raiders and Storm Ravens are the only points changes. And it's 20 points taken off each, not going to make much of a difference.

 

This does make Chapter Approved a little more interesting. The points printed there will be a preview of what to expect in the new Codex. 

 

Looks like everything is the same except land raiders. But as far as the codex!!! OH HOW LONG IVE WAITED FOR 3 WOUND TERMINATORS. Please be kind to us codex creep. I'm so hyped I can't wait for my lists to be playable again.

 

Out of all the changes 9th edition has brought, this is the one that has me genuinely excited.

 

Troops with 3 wounds, 2+/5++ save, melee oriented, deep strike, who are psykers.

 

Put them with an apothecary and sit on objectives all game.

Edited May 27, 2021 by techsoldaten

[Archadeus]

The things my double terminator bombs will do to people. Finally redoubtable will be useful against 3 dmg weapons. And to boot my Interceptors/Purgations will be the perfect backup.

 

Looks like the hammer is free on the ancient now

Edited May 27, 2021 by Archadeus

[Sweetcurse]

There is a very real chance troop termies will NOT be 3 wounds. Remember GW considers them Régulo marines not vets and being a troop choice it’s possible they remain at 2 wounds. All I’m saying is don’t get hopes up too High. Edited May 27, 2021 by Sweetcurse

[techsoldaten]

There is a very real chance troop termies will NOT be 3 wounds. Remember GW considers them Régulo marines not vets and being a troop choice it’s possible they remain at 2 wounds. All I’m saying is don’t get hopes up too High.

 

The Emperor does not purge the Daemon with weakness.

 

Terminator baseline stats should be in-line with other Terminators. Would be very surprised if GK Terminators were the exception. Tacs with Terminator Honors have 2 wounds, the wound comes from the armor not the bearer.

 

The real question is... 4W Paladins?

[Sweetcurse]

GK termie stat line is already NOT the same as regular terminators. ZERO chance of 4W paladins.

[Skywrath]

There is a very real chance troop termies will NOT be 3 wounds. Remember GW considers them Régulo marines not vets and being a troop choice it’s possible they remain at 2 wounds. All I’m saying is don’t get hopes up too High.

 

 

Yeah, no. Here's all the reasons why we WILL get 3W terminators. First of all, it explicitly stated in the original 9th edition article that even the shiny knightly version of marines will get those changes. Secondly, if it concerns you that our terminators will get obsec with 3W, look over at marines and look how easy it is for them to give obsec to anything (Rites of War, Deathwing Detachment, etc). We will get 3W, because if not, I'll personally charge my nemesis force halberd and storm over to GW headquarters >:) Oh and marines already gave 3W T5 models with obsec, or a way to give them obsec, while we don't.

 

GK termie stat line is already NOT the same as regular terminators. ZERO chance of 4W paladins.

It's unlikely, I admit. However seeing how we are supposed to be the elite of the marines, as Custodes are to us, it is possible paladins might get that 4th wound by that logic. Edited May 27, 2021 by Skywrath

[techsoldaten]

2W Terminators forever is really stressing me out, just the suggestion creates anxiety.

 

The topic needs to change to something less divisive that we can all agree on.

 

Looking at the helmets and shoulder pads of the GK troops on the new Codex.

 

The left shoulder pad is missing the letters. Something is wrong with both helmets, they are taller, have less width, and more subdued panel lines than the current Strike helmets. That's not an accident, not twice in the same illustration.

 

Surely this indicates we are getting Primaris Grey Knights. GW would only put new models on the front cover, the fact there's no Crowe means we've got confirmation in plain sight. From the look of the models, my guess is it will be an upgrade pack for Intercessors featuring heads, arms, and weapons, along with iconography for Redemptors and Redeemers.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/ISoijMgi4rBe0qOb.jpg

[Waking Dreamer]

The things my double terminator bombs will do to people. Finally redoubtable will be useful against 3 dmg weapons. And to boot my Interceptors/Purgations will be the perfect backup.

 

Looks like the hammer is free on the ancient now

 

I'm feeling that GKT will indeed be 3 Wounds 100%. 4 Wounds Pallies...that I don't know.

 

Also, Ancients don't have the Daemonhammer option because they're holding the banner in their right hand.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Waking Dreamer