How to counter Deathwing as Adeptus Custodes?

[Skywrath]

Just a disclaimer before I pose the question: I am a Dark Angel player with little experience how they play in 9th. The fact that the faction is so broken at the moment is the fact I don't play them. This could probably be a question posted in the Dark Angel forum, but this is more from the perspective of the Custodes.

 

See above question. How would you go about designing a list to counter them? I got two lists where I'm running hurricane bolters on the bikes, lastrum storm bolters on the aquillon, a 5m allarus squad, etc etc. So quantity over quality. The other list is a full on high AP, high Damage list (so meltas, dreadspears, adrathic destructors). Which list would have the best chance of success? The other side of the equation is this: How would you play the mission if you were playing against a Dark Angel in a tournament? Would you charge them? Play the objective sorely? What secondaries would you choose. I'm legitimately stumped on what to do.

 

Context: In my meta (which is competitive), there is a Dark Angel friend who plays a full Deathwing army. Custodes from my experience/understanding counter marines pretty well - I had nothing but success countering Blood Angels, Ultramarines, and the Chaos Space Marines with something close to a 80% winrate. But I seem to run into problems with Dark Angels and their bonkers transhuman rule. Most of my lists (provided below), run Aquillon with adrathic destructors, Achillus Dreadnoughts, Vertus Praetors. So things that have a lot of AP and D attached to them as a general rule. However when I tried that list against the Dark Angel player and in the tournament, I barely killed two models per turn, with something close to 40 attacks from the allarus, Achillus, and the shield captain. Which leaves me with the other 20 or so Deathwing Terminators to deal with, not that I can do anything about that, because after I attack, I'm dead.

 

List ideas:

 

Quantity > Quality list:

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [93 PL, 10CP, 1,983pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Shield Host: Solar Watch

 

+ Stratagems +

 

Open the Vaults [-1CP]: Open the Vaults: 1 Extra Relic

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 190pts]

 

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, -1CP, 175pts]: Captain-Commander, Raiment of Sorrows, Sally Forth, Salvo Launcher, Strategic Mastermind, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 149pts]

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Guardian Spear

 

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 149pts]

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Guardian Spear

 

Sagittarum Custodians [10 PL, 250pts]: Sagittarum Custodian, Sagittarum Custodian, Sagittarum Custodian, Sagittarum Custodian, Sagittarum Custodian

 

+ Elites +

 

Allarus Custodians [15 PL, 375pts]

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

 

Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Twin Adrathic Destructor

 

Vexilus Praetor [6 PL, 90pts]: Gatekeeper, Guardian Spear, Vexilla Magnifica

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]

. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

 

++ Total: [93 PL, 10CP, 1,983pts] ++

 

Quality > Quantity list:

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [103 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Shield Host: Dread Host

 

+ Stratagems +

 

Open the Vaults [-1CP]: Open the Vaults: 1 Extra Relic

 

+ Agents of the Imperium +

 

Inquisitor Eisenhorn [5 PL, 85pts]: 1) Terrify, 4) Mental Interrogation

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 190pts]

 

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 178pts]: All-seeing Annihilator, Auric Aquilas, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 149pts]

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Guardian Spear

 

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 149pts]

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Guardian Spear

 

Sagittarum Custodians [7 PL, 150pts]: Sagittarum Custodian, Sagittarum Custodian, Sagittarum Custodian

. Misercordia

. Misercordia

. Misercordia

 

+ Elites +

 

Aquilon Custodians [22 PL, 425pts]

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

 

Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought [9 PL, -1CP, 160pts]: Eternal Penitent, 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter

 

Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought [9 PL, -1CP, 160pts]: Eternal Penitent, 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter

 

Vexilus Praetor [6 PL, 90pts]: Gatekeeper, Guardian Spear, Vexilla Magnifica

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Vertus Praetors [12 PL, 264pts]

. Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher

. Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher

. Vertus Praetor: Salvo Launcher

 

++ Total: [103 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

Balanced list

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [98 PL, 11CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Shield Host: Dread Host

 

+ Agents of the Imperium +

 

Inquisitor Eisenhorn [5 PL, 85pts]: 1) Terrify, 4) Mental Interrogation

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 190pts]

 

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 175pts]: All-seeing Annihilator, Auric Aquilas, Salvo Launcher, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 149pts]

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Guardian Spear

 

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 149pts]

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

. Custodian: Guardian Spear

 

Custodian Guard with Adrasite and Pyrithite Spears [8 PL, 180pts]

. Custodian: Pyrithite Spear

. Custodian: Pyrithite Spear

. Custodian: Pyrithite Spear

 

+ Elites +

 

Allarus Custodians [15 PL, 375pts]

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

 

Aquilon Custodians [22 PL, 425pts]

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

. Aquilon Custodian: Solerite Power Gauntlet, Twin Adrathic Destructor

 

Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought [9 PL, -1CP, 180pts]: Eternal Penitent, 2x Twin Adrathic Destructor

 

Vexilus Praetor [6 PL, 90pts]: Guardian Spear, Vexilla Magnifica

 

++ Total: [98 PL, 11CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Skywrath

[Emicus]

Just spam Saggitarum and scythe them down? Bikes work less well with lack of ap.

 

Alternatively board guard are more durable than terminators, no?

 

High str weapons are wasted on them. High damage is not :)

Edited February 5, 2021 by Emicus

[Skywrath]

I ran the double terminator list against him yesterday (last list), and drawn at 74 a-piece. 

 

That being said, Once the wounding on 4's hurdle has been passed, those terminators have it rough between the salvo launchers, meltas, adrathic destructors. It was slow progress at first, but when the terminator blobs and the spearnaught engaged in melee, the tide turned pretty damn quickly towards me. There were a few charitable moves he made T2 which helped towards that, but I suspect the outcome still would have been the same. Wish Trajann would re-roll all failed hit rolls, because there is a difference between actually hitting, and actually failing (e.g. hits on 2's, but let's assume there is a -1, which technically counts as a hit regardless). 

 

Moral of the story - get into melee with them with the aquillon, and bring a lot of meltas to the party.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Skywrath

[Prot]

Ah how frustrating I find that they have have that Transhuman rule and Custodes do not. But I don’t want to derail the thread. 
 

I guess my own lists look mostly like your first list but I use less Sagittarum and instead of an Achilus, I use the Telemon ( fist and shooty arm). I find the Telemon just absorbs so much, but I see you are having lots of success attributed to your Achilus. 
 

Reading your attempts does inspire me to try it myself but honestly so much will happen with the new codex I almost write the match up off. I realize that’s of zero help here but I’m looking for ideas as much as the next guy on this one. 
 

I know one thing, I love my bikers with salvo and hurricanes divided through the squad. I don’t think I’d ever get rid of those. 

[Skywrath]

Ah how frustrating I find that they have have that Transhuman rule and Custodes do not. But I don’t want to derail the thread. 

 

I guess my own lists look mostly like your first list but I use less Sagittarum and instead of an Achilus, I use the Telemon ( fist and shooty arm). I find the Telemon just absorbs so much, but I see you are having lots of success attributed to your Achilus. 

 

Reading your attempts does inspire me to try it myself but honestly so much will happen with the new codex I almost write the match up off. I realize that’s of zero help here but I’m looking for ideas as much as the next guy on this one. 

 

I know one thing, I love my bikers with salvo and hurricanes divided through the squad. I don’t think I’d ever get rid of those. 

 

Personally, I don't think we need it, the games I had against other players as Custodes, I was impressed by their durability. Of course, when you start failing 4+ invulns that's when things go downhill, fast. That and how they seem to counter marines is pretty damn nice too.

 

In the tournament last month, I used the telemon with the same loadout, and boy did he pull his weight. The guys I play against agreed to my suggestion, and hence forth he will be forever known as: The Big Golden Problem. In my BS list I still have his name as that instead of Telemon Dreadnought, hah.

 

Honestly countering Dark Angels isn't too bad. Wounding on 4's sucks, but once you get past that, they will have a really hard time getting past the -3, -4 stuff. Adrathic Destructors on Aquillon are designed for them, as every failed save, that's a dead terminator. Works equally as well against Gravis marines. However if the guy is running Pennant of Remembrance (-1 damage) you'd absolutely want to pop inescapable vengeance, and erase him with Allarus storm-bolter fire. A question in this regard though: The Bodyguard rule for Dark Angels, can Allarus ignore that with the strategem?

 

Like you, I absolutely love my Vertus Praetors, but I think they need something to make them durable. Once they get focused fired, even with a guy with a Vexilla Magnifica they die :(