State of the Union (Heresy)

[Noctus Cornix]

Man... as a Word Bearer, this 'Legiones Cybernetica' change to the Praevian really sucks. A leadership special rule on fearless automata and no access to Dark Channeling... :(

[The Scorpion]

Wait, is the tank pictured under the proteus carrier squadron a spartan? Bevause the tracks are definitely not from a phobos landraider, and if I recall correctly no proteus has an assault ramp, no ? That seems weird.

 

Also, Slips, maybe it would be a good idea to create new tactica threads for the new edition, and archive the old ones? Considering most of them are 30+ pages long, it might be better to start clean for people that might jump into the heresy with this new edition, while also keeping the old discussions intact for people that might want to keep using legacy rules.

I am convinced that the new Proteus will include a Spartan front, assault ramp and all. And it will be the best Land Raider ever:

• Proteus pattern tracks (aka, the best ones)
• Spartan pattern front hull
• Phobos pattern assault ramp.

Can you imagine? As a matter of fact, someone already has:

 

http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics16/img5c785bf23ea6e.jpg

 

Credit to CaptainVivorius for using his psychic divination and bringing us this masterpiece. And shoutout to the 2.0 rules team for giving it 12 slots. Favorite change in the whole ruleset so far.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yeah I have to admit to briefly considering returning to HH after a long time out, but the only thing I like about it for my blood angels is that raldoron had a minor buff, outside of that most things got a nerf to the point of it just being sad. I’m aware crimson paladins appear to have been somewhat fixed but that hardly makes up for sanguinius getting /worse/, the legion trait getting far worse, the special weapons being a side grade at best and the rites of war being decidedly meh.

 

I’m normally pretty positive and try to look for the good things, but really struggling to see any reason I should invest in HH again right now.

You might just wait and see, maybe reevaluate after it comes out a bit and people get some games in. My initial read on this is that I think that might be an opinion a bit too much in a vacuum, in that it looks like they're toning down lethality and power fairly wholesale, so BA are going to feel it because of that. The BA stuff was very good, and so is going to become a casualty of rebalancing.

 

Some Legion RoW are going to get buffed, like the DA ones simply by making them playable, but power looks to be going the opposite direction as to say, 9E has been doing.

[The Scorpion]

I agree with Blindhamster in that it's a matter of perspetive. People on /hhg/ were saying that the Raven Guard and Salamander rules were weak, but RG & SL players (outside 4chan) seem to like what they have. The Blood Angels were very strong before, so a nerf is felt all the more keenly when everyone else is getting buffs.
 

The IXth players are also used to having only 1 RoW, and to have Crimson Paladins struggle to earn back their points. The inferno pistol is now the price of plasma in an edition that seems to favor melta. And (multiple) perdition weapons are now available to everyone including sarges. I'd wager they are going to be plasantly surprised.

 

The weakest Legion rule in 2.0 is actually that of the Word Bearers. It's a buff to morale, and those are always lame. They have possibly the strongest upgrades, but said upgrades are hella expensive.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Morale buffs are lame currently, where pinning is almost non existent, leadership is high, and not many things modify LD. None of those things seem to be the case any more, and being pinned prevents reactions.

[Hfran Morkai]

So it's a bitter sweet day.

 

My Thunderhawk Transporter proxy turned up, apparently it doesn't have an official datasheet.

 

Then again it's such an unusual model I don't see myself using it in many "official" games. Hopefully if Mournival Events continue their fantastic work with the next edition they'll do it proud (and make it carry Sabres!)

[SkimaskMohawk]

Not trying to be flippant: those of you who have medusas can just call them “medusa pattern arquitors” can’t you? I have quite a few phobos raiders that I plan to use anyway.

The size is quite different. The arquitor is quite a large tank and more similar to the sicaran in terms of footprint. Youd be reducing your silhouette, and narrowing your front and rear armour arcs.

 

If maintaining dimensional verisimilitude in counts-as models is important to your group, then using the Medusa as an arquitor won't fly.

 

Re: matter of perspective on legion rules.

 

I think a lot of people are really looking at only the before and after and not realizing what the broader changes are; less high ap blasts removing models and more quantity of shots and rending fishing. Even with melta, you can still react to get shrouded on top of cover. The last, true hard counter to infantry squads is the powerfist. And that's making yourself vulnerable.

 

A few pages ago I was trying to understand the niche of salamanders rules. But its really clear with the artillery nerfs; they're extremely frustrating to clear with shooting. Heat weapons wound them on 3s, and their elite units get a 5+ save at the very least against them. Blasts need to get lucky to cut through the 2+ and absolutely don't want to shoot firedrakes with their Heavy subtype. Chip damage can get healed with it will not die. To kill them off reliably you have to eat a ton of fire to the face and maybe give up that charging unit to the counter charge. Or start tossing lascannons at infantry.

 

Raven guard are simply...better. No more mor deythan combo flamer death, but that was a pretty big gimmick that was hard to pull off after the first time. Normal guys still have infiltrate but also a fnp. Reroll 1s to wound is the same as furious charge on base STR 4, but is better on stuff that dreads and terminators have. Vehicles and stuff getting a fnp is great too.

 

I haven't personally looked at the word bearer rules, but I know there's tons of LD debuffs now. Fear works in an aura, pinning is after every attack instead of 1 per phase and is on a lot of stuff, concussive procs off it, characters can juice combat res in challenges, and LD has gone down across the board. Having reliable LD might be good.

Edited April 2, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Ripper.McGuirl]

 

The size is quite different. The arquitor is quite a large tank and more similar to the sicaran in terms of footprint. Youd be reducing your silhouette, and narrowing your front and rear armour arcs.

 

If maintaining dimensional verisimilitude in counts-as models is important to your group, then using the Medusa as an arquitor won't fly.

 

 

Ah that makes sense. I have never seen an Arquitor in person.

I know in my groups, no one would bat an eye. Especially during the transitional "lets see how things work" phase of the game.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

So it's a bitter sweet day.

 

My Thunderhawk Transporter proxy turned up, apparently it doesn't have an official datasheet.

 

Then again it's such an unusual model I don't see myself using it in many "official" games. Hopefully if Mournival Events continue their fantastic work with the next edition they'll do it proud (and make it carry Sabres!)

 

You know, it's almost as if people would feel  forced  to play the new (let's call it streamlined, because that's the most postive thing I can come up with) edition of the rules.

 

And I wonder why.

 

Apart from official GW events, no one will be forcing you to utilise these rules if you don't like them. And yeah, IIRC the last GW event I did attend was ... back in 2013 or something (and it sucked).

 

Regional play groups, gaming circles and even local tournaments can damn well simply elect to use whatever set of rules they like to use the most.

 

It's why we still got thriving WHFB groups and tournaments.

 

So, yeah, drifting a bit of topic here ... I know, I know.

 

And don't get me wrong, I'll certainly be giving these new rules a shot or two, to be able to pass judgment, and certain small changes seem actualy neat alright, but in its entirety the game and its unique aspects seem to have become a bit more lacklustre and sterile.

 

In the end (or rather the long run) we can play whatever we want to play, eh.  

[Elzender]

 

SNIP

I am convinced that the new Proteus will include a Spartan front, assault ramp and all. And it will be the best Land Raider ever:

• Proteus pattern tracks (aka, the best ones)
• Spartan pattern front hull
• Phobos pattern assault ramp.

Can you imagine? As a matter of fact, someone already has:

 

http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics16/img5c785bf23ea6e.jpg

 

Credit to CaptainVivorius for using his psychic divination and bringing us this masterpiece. And shoutout to the 2.0 rules team for giving it 12 slots. Favorite change in the whole ruleset so far.

I was actually wondering, and without having seen the leaked pics in a while, would it be possible the "spartan" front we saw was actually a reworked land raider proteus ?

[Hfran Morkai]

Aye, in fact I bought a copy of the current rules only a couple of days before the announcement so at least I'd have options.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I feel like these rules are the opposite of streamlined. Just adding the reactions is a big increase in decision making time, plus all the mechanical additions like the difference between breaching and rending.

I prefer this increase in meaningful options, personally.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Ripper.McGuirl

[Darkwrath121]

Surge moves are cool to see, moving half the rolled distance on a failed charge.

[The Scorpion]

 

 

The size is quite different. The arquitor is quite a large tank and more similar to the sicaran in terms of footprint. Youd be reducing your silhouette, and narrowing your front and rear armour arcs.

 

If maintaining dimensional verisimilitude in counts-as models is important to your group, then using the Medusa as an arquitor won't fly.

 

Ah that makes sense. I have never seen an Arquitor in person.

I know in my groups, no one would bat an eye. Especially during the transitional "lets see how things work" phase of the game.

Your group is wise and keeps the hobby alive.

Keep speading the good word: medusas are easy to proxy, either as vindicators or arquitors.

[The Scorpion]

 

 

The level of of those who wrote rules for Sanguinius is just astounding.

First being statline with 6 strengh, 6 initiative 6 attacks - as oppose to Lion and Russ having 7-7-7

Second special rules - it takes a special kind of to not give Sanguinius DEEP STRIKE RULE

I will not be bothered to compare his special rules to Lion and Russ - because his special rules suck big time hard.

I will not be bothered to mention his lost special rules and opportunities to fix stupid ones (one shot pistol AGAIN?)

 

So now essentially - he is not even remotely the killiest one, and secondly - gives even less bonuses to his army.

And now - when you can't have hit&run via RoW - all those "on charge" bonuses becomes a bandaid made of grass.

 

One may say "But hey he is still ok at killing random stuff" - but the point is - it's Sanguinius, he can't be mediocre dude - even Corax dish can dish out 12 attacks with s6 ap2 shred! 

 

I am sorry for this nerd rage - but it's unbearable - especially how much controversy his profile caused in the first edition.

 

Your not the only one brother, losing my mind trying to make sense of how someone could make Sanguinius so bad that even DORN can mop the floor with him. He was Lore accurately supposed to be like top 3 in primarch vs primarch duels. Like Slips said though, we still have time for them to rework him before release, just amazing he has made to Phase 3 while remaining this terrible and without deepstrike.

 

There is one saving grace here: it's a Primarch. And it's Sanguinius.

 

Had it been some niche unit like the Mhara Gal tainted dreadnought or the Alpha Legion Headhunters, then the unit could've languished and remained forgotten. But Horus Heresy is about Primarchs, like it or not. Regardless of what fluff say, there is one thing that will never change in Heresy, no matter the edition:

 

And that is the sheer amount of games consiting of two max-upgraded Spartans running at each other, filled to brim with as many unique terminators as possible, and of course, the Sire of the Legion.

Nevermind that Primarch duelling ties both models for most of the game without either of them dying. The eternal meme arguments must be settled.and thus you see everything on tabletop: Dorn vs Perturabo, Fulgrim vs Angron, Alpharius vs Omegon and Guilliman vs Dorn.

 

If The Angel somehow gets printed without fixing, it wont be long until he gets fixed ASAP. Because everyone will notice. The Siege of Terra isn't over, you have the full might of Black Library behind you.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

The size is quite different. The arquitor is quite a large tank and more similar to the sicaran in terms of footprint. Youd be reducing your silhouette, and narrowing your front and rear armour arcs.

 

If maintaining dimensional verisimilitude in counts-as models is important to your group, then using the Medusa as an arquitor won't fly.

 

Ah that makes sense. I have never seen an Arquitor in person.

I know in my groups, no one would bat an eye. Especially during the transitional "lets see how things work" phase of the game.

Your group is wise and keeps the hobby alive.

Keep speading the good word: medusas are easy to proxy, either as vindicators or arquitors.

 

Every vehicle is easy to proxy.

 

My sicaran is a kratos.

 

My Land Raider is a Spartan.

 

My sabre is a predator.

 

My box dread is a contemptor.

[kenshin138]

My Lightning may get very agile all of a sudden (counts-as Xiphon). 

[Spagunk]

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but have we actually seen the first page of Sanguinnius’s rules yet? Because that would be where Deep Strike is listed, right?

I haven't seen it posted yet but he does not have the deep strike special rule on his data sheet.

[Slips]

More stuff being posted by the Leak Source on /TG/

 

Vehicle Rules, Legion Consul, Command Squad, Unit Types, Wound Allocations among others.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Slips

[Slips]

These are from a giant collated image the leaker posted that had the various missions, game length, deployment, etc. rules.

 

Reserves, Night Fighting:

Edited April 2, 2022 by Slips

[Slips]

 

EVERYONE HERE better read this and read this well.

[GAZ_AV_NZ]

I didn't see Vindicator laser destroyer or is that just an upgrade for vindis?

[The Scorpion]

More stuff being posted by the Leak Source on /TG/

 

Vehicle Rules, Legion Consul, Command Squad, Unit Types, Wound Allocations among others.

I thought for a moment this was the new proteus and got hyped.

I wanna see it. 12 man Raider has to be the thing I'm most hyped about.

 

Also Squats are back, so I suppose the lore of the Mk3 armor being designed to bully the abhuman leagues of Votann is back as well?

[Slips]

Some Changes Ive seen:

 

Vehicle Explosions are at S8 now, so Rhinos are a death trap.

 

Weapon Destroyed is chosen by the owner of the tank who's weapon is being destroyed but you must choose Battle weapons before defensive weapons.

 

You cannot assault out of normal reserves but you can out of Outflank and Deepstrike.

 

Night Fighting is going back to an older form (cant shoot/target things outside of 24") but is also more punishing (-1BS and LD) meaning Night Lords will have tons of fun since only one player needs to say "yes" to night fighting and get a 2+ on a d6 for it to be on T1.

 

White Scars units that get +1 to movement but are also (light) unit type are going to be very zoomy on foot.

 

Challenges has some minor tweaks to how it works that might actually make it safer to sacrifice a character in a challenge vs a beatstick vs just letting them swing into the squad while your character is functionally not part of the squad for that assault. But then, if the beatstick swings into the squad he might deal less overall damage than if he just 1shot his opponent and had guaranteed wounds added to the Combat Resolution pool to determine who wins. So theres some tactical play to be made there.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Slips

[Chaeron]

The decision to remove the Boxnought makes sense and doesn't.

 

It makes sense because by removing the Boxnought, you shove the Contemptor down people's throat.

I may be in the minority on this one, but the Boxnought never screamed Heresy to me in the way the Contemptor chassis did. I liked the distinction and visual evolution between settings, and the justification for progression too. I can’t genuinely recall facing a Boxnought on the table either, but if something like this doesn’t make the new edition and people have been using them, proxy or count-as would likely be best employed here, and I imagine most would be amenable!