State of the Union (Heresy)

[Biscuittzz]

The removal of all the 40k old marine kits from the Heresy 2.0 range likely also signals the upcoming squatting (useful term anymore?) of old marines from the 40k universe.

 

In my opinion, it'll be Primaris for 40k and then if you want first-born marines it'll be a case of 'play Horus Heresy for that'.

[The Scorpion]

There weren't boxnoughts on the table partly because the Contemptor overshadowed them points-per-model, but mostly because the MKIV boxnought went OOP.

 

There is the 40k one, but without weapon options, where is the fun?

[spessmarine]

The removal of all the 40k old marine kits from the Heresy 2.0 range likely also signals the upcoming squatting (useful term anymore?) of old marines from the 40k universe.

 

In my opinion, it'll be Primaris for 40k and then if you want first-born marines it'll be a case of 'play Horus Heresy for that'.

Un-Votunned.

In any case, I don't think so. If anything classic marines got a new lease on life.

[BitsHammer]

The removal of all the 40k old marine kits from the Heresy 2.0 range likely also signals the upcoming squatting (useful term anymore?) of old marines from the 40k universe.

 

In my opinion, it'll be Primaris for 40k and then if you want first-born marines it'll be a case of 'play Horus Heresy for that'.

Seems a bit of a stretch to me. If anything I was more expecting GW to move Firstborn into a historical setting like HH/Scouring/ect.

[Gorgoff]

No more assault cannons for IF?

[Fallen11]

Considering that lascanons got sunder, melta tl so you don't miss and whole lot of at guns got boost, vehicles lost ceramite, got mostly 1hp more. How are they usable at all? I mean, your 400+ pts spartan can get blown by 1 melta shot not that hard for example. On the other hand, you will need bunch of those hits to kill land speeder or dreadnought, logic behind that is?

[Slips]

No more assault cannons for IF?

We still have them.

[bushman101]

 

The decision to remove the Boxnought makes sense and doesn't.

It makes sense because by removing the Boxnought, you shove the Contemptor down people's throat.

 

I may be in the minority on this one, but the Boxnought never screamed Heresy to me in the way the Contemptor chassis did. I liked the distinction and visual evolution between settings, and the justification for progression too. I can’t genuinely recall facing a Boxnought on the table either, but if something like this doesn’t make the new edition and people have been using them, proxy or count-as would likely be best employed here, and I imagine most would be amenable!

Same.

All of the HH stuff seemed more sleek than their 40k counterparts. The box-naught was a slab with legs compared to the multi jointed and better proportioned Contemptor.

[The Scorpion]

The removal of all the 40k old marine kits from the Heresy 2.0 range likely also signals the upcoming squatting (useful term anymore?) of old marines from the 40k universe.

 

In my opinion, it'll be Primaris for 40k and then if you want first-born marines it'll be a case of 'play Horus Heresy for that'.

Only if GeeDubs acts fast enough. Otherwise the beakies will hopefully strike back in the 40k tables, bringing the relic vehicles with them.

 

Whatever happens, Heresy will remain the better system IMHO

[Astartes Consul]

Considering that lascanons got sunder, melta tl so you don't miss and whole lot of at guns got boost, vehicles lost ceramite, got mostly 1hp more. How are they usable at all? I mean, your 400+ pts spartan can get blown by 1 melta shot not that hard for example. On the other hand, you will need bunch of those hits to kill land speeder or dreadnought, logic behind that is?

 

Pretty sure the new 'Reinforced' Vehicle Sub-Type is basically Armoured Ceremite, no? 

[SkimaskMohawk]

So obviously deep/flank charging is big. Here's what I noticed:

 

Look out sir is gone; you simply can't target characters and their player can just toss wounds in and off of the depending on how low they're getting. There's no range limit on this, simply another model in the unit. Precision shots and strikes gets around this, but if you don't have it the best chance to get rid of that character and prevent them from tanking your unit is....challenges.

 

So there we have it, that's why challenges are a thing. Force the character to take hits and more importantly, not to take hits from the rest of your guys.

 

@astartes consul reinforced seems to be extra armour.

Edited April 2, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[depthcharge12]

Can someone post the rule pic on assault from deep strike/outflank?

 

That’s huge!

[Slips]

Can someone post the rule pic on assault from deep strike/outflank?

 

That’s huge!

I posted it its in there. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/369602-state-of-the-union-heresy/?p=5811409

Edited April 2, 2022 by Slips

[Noserenda]

You young whippersnappers, the M4 IV boxnought was the face of heresy dreadnoughts long before Contemptors bothered to get released :D :P 

They always had a LOT more character than contemptors for me too, you see one contemptor youve seen them all, too human! But the old stompers with their big flat sarcophagi's had so much more going on, thats character. 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Challenges has some minor tweaks to how it works that might actually make it safer to sacrifice a character in a challenge vs a beatstick vs just letting them swing into the squad while your character is functionally not part of the squad for that assault. But then, if the beatstick swings into the squad he might deal less overall damage than if he just 1shot his opponent and had guaranteed wounds added to the Combat Resolution pool to determine who wins. So theres some tactical play to be made there.

 

I think you're misreading the wound allocation rules for characters:

 

Allocate Wounds

First, the player whose unit is the target of the attack selects any one model in the unit that is engaged with the enemy unit whose attacks are being resolved.

 

If any model in the target unit has already lost one or more Wounds, but has not been removed as a casualty then the Wound must always be allocated to such a model, unless that model also has the Character sub-type (see page 198).....

 

 

Characters and Wound Allocation

When allocating Wounds, a player may always choose not to allocate wounds to a model with the Character Sub-Type, regardless of how many Wounds that model has lost or any factors that would normally require it to have Wounds allocated to it, as long as there is at least one other valid target model in the same unit to which Wounds may be allocated instead.

 

 

 

So you can have your character out in front, tanking and doing the business, and just pass off wounds when he starts to get low. They're hidden in the unit unless you snipe them out, and challenging forces them into taking wounds or you telling them they can't attack. 

[Slips]

Another big change is that, if you deepstrike a unit and land within 6" of an enemy, they need to take a pinning check. If you get this to trigger that means that unit will be unable to use reactions against you.

 

Additionally, all Deepstrikers come in together on one roll. You place one unit and scatter. On a 2+ you then place all other units of that deepstrike within 12" of that first unit. On a 1 your opponent places them anywhere within 24" but it seems deepstrike mishaps are gone? IE no longer a risk of your unit just poofing into dust upon an unfortunate scatter.

 

You can then shoot and charge as normal.

 

The price tag of +30 to give units in an IF Hammerfall Strikeforce list now makes a LOT more sense.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Slips

[Augusta_Vespa]

The other thing to note about deep strike, is you dont have to land clustered up now! Just so long as the models in coherency. I.e you can land 20 assault marines in a long line across the battlefield as they drop from high orbit! Albeit this does make them at risk from multiple reactions via augury scanners but a cool visual nonetheless!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Another big change is that, if you deepstrike a unit and land within 6" of an enemy, they need to take a pinning check. If you get this to trigger that means that unit will be unable to use reactions against you.

 

Additionally, all Deepstrikers come in together on one roll. You place one unit and scatter. On a 2+ you then place all other units of that deepstrike within 12" of that first unit. On a 1 your opponent places them anywhere within 24" but it seems deepstrike mishaps are gone? IE no longer a risk of your unit just poofing into dust upon an unfortunate scatter.

 

You can then shoot and charge as normal.

 

The price tag of +30 to give units in an IF Hammerfall Strikeforce list now makes a LOT more sense.

 

Also makes Sevatar's warlord trait from the phase 1 document very strong. Free deepstrike to termies and preferred enemy on that turn?

 

re: mishaps

 

If you scatter off  the first unit into previous mishap stuff, your opponent gets to place anywhere within 18" of that point (with restrictions on 1" from enemy and impassable); if that's impossible, it's anywhere on the table.

 

re: no cluster

 

You can spread out over an area, but you cant influence as many areas of the board with your deepstrike any more. It's very concentrated  in its impact, as opposed to the spread you could get with Night Lords or Raven Guard abusing pods, or Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists with teleporting Terminators.

Edited April 3, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Augusta_Vespa]

Also re wound allocation, once you start allocating to a model you have to keep allocating all of the wound pools for that particular model until either you run out of wounds or the model dies. You cant switch out the character once he has taken the wounds from an initial attack.

 

For example, tactical squad with a praetor takes 10 bolter wounds and 3 lascannon wounds. You pick a model in the unit and resolve ALL the wound pools but it is your choice the order it is resolved. So you could resolve the 10 bolter hits on the praetor but then you HAVE to also resolve the lascannon wounds.

 

The character wound allocation rule exclusion rule only works after they have survived one set of attacks and then take wounds from another unit. You could still allocate to the wounded praetor but dont HAVE to as he is a character. If he was not a character then he HAS to have wounds allocated to him if he was already wounded. This basically stops wounds being spread around units that are not made up of characters but makes allocating wounds to characters quite risky if you take a mixture of shooting.

 

Lastly, bear in mind leadership is worse across the board for all units. So losing the sergeant and that vital point of leadership is huge and deincentivises using your artificer sergeants to try and tank wounds. Ld7 marines fail leadership checks pretty often!

[Slips]

 

Another big change is that, if you deepstrike a unit and land within 6" of an enemy, they need to take a pinning check. If you get this to trigger that means that unit will be unable to use reactions against you.

 

Additionally, all Deepstrikers come in together on one roll. You place one unit and scatter. On a 2+ you then place all other units of that deepstrike within 12" of that first unit. On a 1 your opponent places them anywhere within 24" but it seems deepstrike mishaps are gone? IE no longer a risk of your unit just poofing into dust upon an unfortunate scatter.

 

You can then shoot and charge as normal.

 

The price tag of +30 to give units in an IF Hammerfall Strikeforce list now makes a LOT more sense.

 

Also makes Sevatar's warlord trait from the phase 1 document very strong. Free deepstrike to termies and preferred enemy on that turn?

 

re: mishaps

 

If you scatter off  the first unit into previous mishap stuff, your opponent gets to place anywhere within 18" of that point (with restrictions on 1" from enemy and impassable); if that's impossible, it's anywhere on the table.

 

Yeah mishaping is still not ideal but its better than poofing so I'll take it.

[Brofist]

That language under Characters and Wound Allocation will need an FAQ. RAW it could be interpreted to break how sniper and precisions shots work.

[Slips]

[bushman101]

So with Deepstrike, there is always a 1/6 chance your opponent will place your models? (Barring RoW and such)

[kenshin138]

All I've seen are wound allocation rules for close-combat, not shooting. Where is this from?

 

Also re wound allocation, once you start allocating to a model you have to keep allocating all of the wound pools for that particular model until either you run out of wounds or the model dies. You cant switch out the character once he has taken the wounds from an initial attack.

For example, tactical squad with a praetor takes 10 bolter wounds and 3 lascannon wounds. You pick a model in the unit and resolve ALL the wound pools but it is your choice the order it is resolved. So you could resolve the 10 bolter hits on the praetor but then you HAVE to also resolve the lascannon wounds.

The character wound allocation rule exclusion rule only works after they have survived one set of attacks and then take wounds from another unit. You could still allocate to the wounded praetor but dont HAVE to as he is a character. If he was not a character then he HAS to have wounds allocated to him if he was already wounded. This basically stops wounds being spread around units that are not made up of characters but makes allocating wounds to characters quite risky if you take a mixture of shooting.

Lastly, bear in mind leadership is worse across the board for all units. So losing the sergeant and that vital point of leadership is huge and deincentivises using your artificer sergeants to try and tank wounds. Ld7 marines fail leadership checks pretty often!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Also re wound allocation, once you start allocating to a model you have to keep allocating all of the wound pools for that particular model until either you run out of wounds or the model dies. You cant switch out the character once he has taken the wounds from an initial attack.

 

For example, tactical squad with a praetor takes 10 bolter wounds and 3 lascannon wounds. You pick a model in the unit and resolve ALL the wound pools but it is your choice the order it is resolved. So you could resolve the 10 bolter hits on the praetor but then you HAVE to also resolve the lascannon wounds.

 

The character wound allocation rule exclusion rule only works after they have survived one set of attacks and then take wounds from another unit. You could still allocate to the wounded praetor but dont HAVE to as he is a character. If he was not a character then he HAS to have wounds allocated to him if he was already wounded. This basically stops wounds being spread around units that are not made up of characters but makes allocating wounds to characters quite risky if you take a mixture of shooting.

 

Lastly, bear in mind leadership is worse across the board for all units. So losing the sergeant and that vital point of leadership is huge and deincentivises using your artificer sergeants to try and tank wounds. Ld7 marines fail leadership checks pretty often!

 

I haven't seen the shooting rules for wound allocation, but the melee interaction is clear RAW.

 

When allocating Wounds, a player may always choose not to allocate wounds* to a model with the Character Sub-Type, regardless of how many Wounds that model has lost** or any factors that would normally require it to have Wounds allocated to it,*** as long as there is at least one other valid target model in the same unit to which Wounds may be allocated instead.

 

 

* Means always. You can always choose not to allocate wounds.

** Means from 0 lost wounds to 5 lost wounds. Regardless of the amount lost, you can do the previous.

***Any factors such as the wound pool mechanic or the take saves and remove casualties mechanic

 

As long as your guy is out front, he can deflect wounds. It's completely overly broad and covers every rule; Brofist says it below:

 

 

That language under Characters and Wound Allocation will need an FAQ. RAW it could be interpreted to break how sniper and precisions shots work.

 

I expect this to be picked up on the final document. These are still playtest docs.