State of the Union (Heresy)

[MichaelCarmine]

I have to say, i'm truly dissapointed with the lack of info on the (hopefully still) upcomming Legacy PDFs...

The Roadmap suggested the drop of PDFs this month, but i'd never imagine, that the one Examplary Battle/WB-unit was IT.

No info on the updated Rules for the already released 1.0 Exemplary-Battle units, or anything Legacy...  that's way beyond "bummer"!

[lansalt]

There's still a few hours left up to July 1, have faith!

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like they're going to use the word bearers unit from the other day as the "pdf by the end of the month".

[Cadmus Tyro]

They stated the legacy pdfs would be dropped on release to allow existing HH players to use their existing armies......

A contact of mine suggested they might drop around the time of the HH WHW event, along with the FAQ. 
 

I would be pretty frustrated if my only faction was Solar Auxilia, having to wait several months to even play....but then GW don’t have a good track record of honouring their existing customer base.....

Cadmus 

 

[Slips]

12 minutes ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

They stated the legacy pdfs would be dropped on release to allow existing HH players to use their existing armies......

A contact of mine suggested they might drop around the time of the HH WHW event, along with the FAQ. 
 

I would be pretty frustrated if my only faction was Solar Auxilia, having to wait several months to even play....but then GW don’t have a good track record of honouring their existing customer base.....

Cadmus 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/warhammer-the-horus-heresy-road-map-the-age-is-dark-but-the-futures-bright/

 

They never actually said when the pdfs would drop; thats just a timeframe a lot of us were expecting for it to drop in but GW never said anything explicit.

[Arkhanist]

Kind frustrated with how slow they're rolling out the heads too - for the IW, it's "both upgrade sets are coming later this year"?? I can understanding needing production/release window space for further GW plastics, but not having a bunch of the new resin heads and pads for the legions ready to go, or at least batch em out quick, to tie up with the big box release - given how much stuff forgeworld've cut of late - seems a bit mad, and rather wastes all the momentum and hype of 2.0 if people are waiting (and waiting) to assemble and/or paint their minis because they don't want 40 identikit beakies or 3rd party (or mark ii designs, given they're not supposed to be cross-compatible)

I mean, I'm just going ahead with what I can get, which ain't gonna be forgeworld heads unless they're literally out for WE in the next week or two.

Much worse for people unable to play their entire army for months though, obviously - they absolutely should also have had the non-marine libers ready to go at launch like the indexes for 8th ed 40k were, it does make it even harder to argue HH isn't purely a marine-on-marine game (for people who don't like marines much) when right now it literally is.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Arkhanist

[bushman101]

Speaking of pdfs, the past Exemplary Battles are supposed to be compatible with 2.0?

 

[Slips]

1 minute ago, bushman101 said:

Speaking of pdfs, the past Exemplary Battles are supposed to be compatible with 2.0?

 

The previous ones before the WB one that just went out were back ported to 1.0 but not un-ported back to 2.0 so, kinda but not really.

[ShadowCore67]

I've come to the decision I'm not a fan of the scoring changes. Having scoring so restricted to a handful of units really messes with list building. No matter what list I'm trying to make with whatever rite I'm using, I'm finding myself unable to bring many other troops choices because I need to bring enough scoring units. 4/6 of the book missions use scoring units. In my mind, 3 scoring units is a minimum if you want a chance at keeping some alive. This means I only have 3 slots left for support squads or whatever units your rite gives you. And ideally I'd want more than 3 line units.

I know there are some rites that don't have this problem because they confer the line sub-type, but majority don't.

[Noserenda]

The PDF delay feels inexplicable, unless they seriously underestimated how unpopular squatting a bunch of stuff would be and they are desperately writing/expanding it now? Like, i can understand the physical books need to be space out on a SG release schedule and the further plastic kits too (possibly delayed by all the wave 1 side releases selling out instantly) but PDF's? Just drop those suckers! 

[MichaelCarmine]

8 minutes ago, ShadowCore67 said:

I've come to the decision I'm not a fan of the scoring changes. Having scoring so restricted to a handful of units really messes with list building. No matter what list I'm trying to make with whatever rite I'm using, I'm finding myself unable to bring many other troops choices because I need to bring enough scoring units. 4/6 of the book missions use scoring units. In my mind, 3 scoring units is a minimum if you want a chance at keeping some alive. This means I only have 3 slots left for support squads or whatever units your rite gives you. And ideally I'd want more than 3 line units.

I know there are some rites that don't have this problem because they confer the line sub-type, but majority don't.

You could try a Command Squad - the Legion Standard makes them Line too =]

[Spagunk]

11 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

You could try a Command Squad - the Legion Standard makes them Line too =]

 

22 minutes ago, ShadowCore67 said:

I've come to the decision I'm not a fan of the scoring changes. Having scoring so restricted to a handful of units really messes with list building. No matter what list I'm trying to make with whatever rite I'm using, I'm finding myself unable to bring many other troops choices because I need to bring enough scoring units. 4/6 of the book missions use scoring units. In my mind, 3 scoring units is a minimum if you want a chance at keeping some alive. This means I only have 3 slots left for support squads or whatever units your rite gives you. And ideally I'd want more than 3 line units.

I know there are some rites that don't have this problem because they confer the line sub-type, but majority don't.

There in lies the crux of HH: You have to really weight out your desired to bring fancy units with the need to objective grab.

There's something to be said about best defense being a good offense in that if you can keep the enemy off the objective, you're winning by default. But if you're strategy is to hold your ground, you're going to be weighing more towards line troops than you may want.

The best solution is through Rites of War, honestly. But as you mentioned there are relatively few of them which I think was a design choice and done purposely. When in doubt always go with Pride of the Legion as that gives the most versatile troop selection with all getting Line (Vets, Terminators in addition to tacs/breachers/recon etc.). Veteran marines are no slouches this edition and get access to a LOT of gear. They're also tougher on a per-marine basis with more attacks than typical line troops.

[BitsHammer]

Okay so the more I look at Lightning Claws and Chainglaives the less I know which I should look at for my NL Tacticals.

Also if I'm reading things correctly A Talent For Murder triggers Breaching and Rending on a 5+ when the bonus is in effect so that's good.

[Astartes Consul]

5 hours ago, Slips said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/07/warhammer-the-horus-heresy-road-map-the-age-is-dark-but-the-futures-bright/

 

They never actually said when the pdfs would drop; thats just a timeframe a lot of us were expecting for it to drop in but GW never said anything explicit.

I went back and read this the other day and thought the same. They have committed to PDF(s) on a monthly basis'. So, no timeline on which PDFs & when...

I'd hoped that the release of the next Exemplary Battles PDF - aka the Word Bearers one we now have - would be the cue for GW upload all the previous PDFs in their new  & updated format. The article that accompanied the Raven Guard Exemplary Battles PDF stated that all of the rules had been written for 2.0 first, and just modified for use in 1.0 as a stop gap. So, more than the other PDF releases we are waiting on, their absence is the most confusing for me.

The lack of the additional rules for Legacy units and stop gap rules for Militia & Demons sucks, obviously. But presumably there is a specific gap in the release schedule they have been marked for, and GW doesn't want to release them until everyone has received their starter sets, painted up a load of plastic and started playing. So around the time of the planned WHW event. There is some logic to that, at least.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Fulkes said:

Okay so the more I look at Lightning Claws and Chainglaives the less I know which I should look at for my NL Tacticals.

Also if I'm reading things correctly A Talent For Murder triggers Breaching and Rending on a 5+ when the bonus is in effect so that's good.

There's a rule about how modifiers to rolls don't let you proc breaching, or rending, or whatever else more easily. If it says breaching 5+ then you need to roll that natural 5+.

As for tactical squads, imo you don't want to pay for the Night Lords unique weapons. You have to pay the points for them and for the power weapon you're taking; a hard sell compared to a lightning claw or power fist. I'd always recommend a fist, but I think double claw is pretty good now as well, and looks cool. Depends if tac seargents can take them tho.

Definitely kind of disagree on with shadowcore about scoring. It's almost like you can't just forget about taking scoring units by filling up on elites that do double duty. Now you have to invest in scoring if you want them to have longevity, and have fewer spare points/FOC slots as a result. Or choose to go risky with low scoring. Or, we might begin to realise that we can just choose the objectives to fight over and target their scoring units on other ones, similar to how 6th worked (where only troops could score or contest).

[Chaeron]

5 hours ago, ShadowCore67 said:

I've come to the decision I'm not a fan of the scoring changes. Having scoring so restricted to a handful of units really messes with list building. No matter what list I'm trying to make with whatever rite I'm using, I'm finding myself unable to bring many other troops choices because I need to bring enough scoring units. 4/6 of the book missions use scoring units. In my mind, 3 scoring units is a minimum if you want a chance at keeping some alive. This means I only have 3 slots left for support squads or whatever units your rite gives you. And ideally I'd want more than 3 line units.

I know there are some rites that don't have this problem because they confer the line sub-type, but majority don't.

Last edition, this was a prime concern for Mechanicum players: we had to focus on wiping the opponent out instead!

As suggested by @Spagunk, it means one has to think more about their list building and what they can bring. The focus on core units hopefully also keeps a larger proportion of Tactical marines on the table. It’s fair to say that Rites enabling more scoring troops are likely to be more popular in the short term too, as you note: hopefully also leading to interesting builds and synergies!

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Chaeron it was a prime concern for cybernetica players. I had 4-5 scoring units in my taghmata lists; they were a pain to kill and topped out at 750 points

It was hard to make a terrible mechanicum list, but pure cybernetica was definitely one way of doing it. 

 

[BitsHammer]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

There's a rule about how modifiers to rolls don't let you proc breaching, or rending, or whatever else more easily. If it says breaching 5+ then you need to roll that natural 5+.

As for tactical squads, imo you don't want to pay for the Night Lords unique weapons. You have to pay the points for them and for the power weapon you're taking; a hard sell compared to a lightning claw or power fist. I'd always recommend a fist, but I think double claw is pretty good now as well, and looks cool. Depends if tac seargents can take them tho.

Definitely kind of disagree on with shadowcore about scoring. It's almost like you can't just forget about taking scoring units by filling up on elites that do double duty. Now you have to invest in scoring if you want them to have longevity, and have fewer spare points/FOC slots as a result. Or choose to go risky with low scoring. Or, we might begin to realise that we can just choose the objectives to fight over and target their scoring units on other ones, similar to how 6th worked (where only troops could score or contest).

Well color me embarrassed because I was excited to think that that a Talent for Murder would let you boost the Breaching/Rending rolls. Good thing that got sorted yearly.

So quick check of the Legion Tactical squad: SGTs can take a single Lighting Claw. Really it comes down to if you want Rending at S4 or Breaching at S6 and honestly it seems like Rending is better against more targets since it auto-wounds if you roll 6s to wound, but I haven't exactly sat down and crunched the numbers. At the moment I'm working on my Spartan instead of trying to work out wargear options atm.

[MichaelCarmine]

6 hours ago, Spagunk said:

 

There in lies the crux of HH: You have to really weight out your desired to bring fancy units with the need to objective grab.

There's something to be said about best defense being a good offense in that if you can keep the enemy off the objective, you're winning by default. But if you're strategy is to hold your ground, you're going to be weighing more towards line troops than you may want.

The best solution is through Rites of War, honestly. But as you mentioned there are relatively few of them which I think was a design choice and done purposely. When in doubt always go with Pride of the Legion as that gives the most versatile troop selection with all getting Line (Vets, Terminators in addition to tacs/breachers/recon etc.). Veteran marines are no slouches this edition and get access to a LOT of gear. They're also tougher on a per-marine basis with more attacks than typical line troops.

The big thing, that most people i talked to oversee with Pride of the Legion, is, that ONLY the Units used to fill the Compulsory Troops (being 2 units) get the Line Subtype, not every Unit of Terminators/Vets, taken as troops!

Though you can mix that with 2 Tacticals and a Command Terminator Squad to still get your 4-5 Soring Units, its something most people overlook ^^

[jaxom]

Two big squads of scoring Cataphractii Squads (takes advantage of the discount, too) are going to be very hard to move off an objective and pretty darn offensive with the right weapons. Legions with really killy specialist Terminators in two troop slots and two smaller tactical squads for holding objectives in or near your deployment zone seems like a good mix. I think the Veteran Squads are a trap.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Fulkes iirc you can take the chainblade as an option as well, so you can sit at STR 5 with shred and breaching and still claim the bonus attack. Still think it's a huge price to pay though, and a fist or single claw is better.

 

@MichaelCarmine if you fill your compulsory troops with terminators in pride, you can pivot to recons as a very strong scoring option. They're the cheapest base scoring unit and can be tweaked to provide range sniping support or melee outflank. You can absolutely stuff your army with scoring units for 340 extra points and 20 marine bodies 

[BitsHammer]

So claws and Chainblades/Chainglaives are all 10pts. The Headsman Axe and Power Fist are both 15pts. It's definitely side-grade territory, but it just makes my decision paralysis act up.

[SkimaskMohawk]

15 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

So claws and Chainblades/Chainglaives are all 10pts. The Headsman Axe and Power Fist are both 15pts. It's definitely side-grade territory, but it just makes my decision paralysis act up.

Well...that's almost correct. You have to exchange a power weapon for the special night lords gear, so that's 20 points for a glaive or blade, and 25 for an axe. 10 for the lightning claw and 15 for the power fist. 

 

 

[Brofist]

Have we figured out why the pathfinder exists or is it 2.0s first official trap choice (honorable mention to the command rhino)

[Slips]

20 minutes ago, Brofist said:

Have we figured out why the pathfinder exists or is it 2.0s first official trap choice (honorable mention to the command rhino)

Its the only Consul or HQ choice that gains the Skirmish Sub-type which can be important to you; or not. If you attach a non-skirmish IC to a unit of Skirmish models then you break their 3" Coherency Ability and cause them to revert to 2" coherency so long as the Non-Skirmish model is part of the unit.

Other than that, he has no real limits on the other wargear and equipment he can have outside of Jump Packs and Bikes. He, unlike the Vigilator, also doesnt have to choose whether he gets Scout OR Infiltrate and instead has both.

Pathfinders will have *the* most limited applications for most players in a general sense but at only +10 over a base Consul, he is certainly one of the cheaper methods of getting a compulsory HQ in your army.

As for why he exists: Why not?