State of the Union (Heresy)

[Doghouse]

I don't think anyone is saying there will be a complete overhaul, for now it sounds like some potential minor changes and maybe a means to use your armies in 40k.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I don't think anyone is saying there will be a complete overhaul, for now it sounds like some potential minor changes and maybe a means to use your armies in 40k.

I just don't think minor changes can do anything to allow you cross play. What minor changes to the units would allow that?

[Marshal Loss]

A sort of 9.5 approach, similar to Titanicus (basic rules [9th], advanced rules + optional rules [30k specific]), would be my ideal compromise. It wouldn't be too hard to add in templates + scatter + some kind of facing modifier system for vehicles, which are the things I miss most about earlier editions. If people then wanted to play against mainstream 40k armies they'd just not use that advanced layer.

 

There's absolutely no way you can make 30k compatible with 9th ed 40k without a significant rules rewrite. I'm of the opinion that going to 9th would be better for 30k's long-term future, but there are obviously some cons to that approach.

 

In any case, the leaked pictures feature scatter dice, so it's pretty clear that we're not getting a pure transition to 9th. I still think that the HH being a completely different system is the more likely result, but we'll have to see if these rumours about "interconnectivity" pan out. None of the rules rumours so far have struck me as having any particular insight beyond educated guesses re: indexes, etc.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Yeah, I'm expecting more of a 7.5 with stuff kinda shifting 'sideways' (movement values going from unit type to profiles for example) and some streamlining - in terms of making it closer to 9th I think having more detail in units' profiles just means that  the game designers have an easier time porting them over for the 9th ed rules indexes, stuff like grouping rules differently so they can have a set formula for converting different unit types by having more direct parallels rather than basically having to take each unit from scratch. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[Brofist]

The rumor seems pretty specific- supplements maintained by GW that let people who want to play using 9ths format do that, but it also has pretty clear bait like "Dark Mechanicum" which literally doesn't have a list today.

[Noserenda]

Having two sets of stats is good if they keep it up properly, let people use the rules they like best.

 

Tbf if the new rules are going to fix the more egregious 7th Ed problems it's a big step too, I don't think anyone is insane enough to defend that mess of a movement system for example and as mentioned the vehicle/monstrous creature split is pretty unpopular too surely?

[Marshal Loss]

If I were looking to hedge my bets, "a series of indexes/red book equivalents for each faction" would be exactly what I'd say, because that's obviously going to happen whether it goes to 9th or not. Dark Mechanicum having a separate book to Mechanicum also doesn't make much sense at launch as they share virtually every unit, and the "compatible with 9th ed but not changing much" also doesn't make much sense, taken at face value, although it could just be a roundabout way of implying that the spirit/general tone of the game is the same. I don't see them doing two sets of stats for everything.

 

Not targeting Riku at all, rumours are what they are and I'm very grateful to see them posted. Just trying to wrap my head around things. Hopefully we're not in the dark for too long.

 

I'm very interested to see how this is received, whatever happens - the HH community is small and fanatically devoted (with a lot of time & money invested into the setting), and I'm intrigued to see how GW straggle the line between appealing to the existing playerbase and looking to expand 30k beyond the niche it currently is (which, with this level of plastic investment, they're going to want).

 

edit: spelling

Edited June 19, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Bung]

The first thing to make it more appealing would be communication and Up to Date erratas before anything else.

[bushman101]

Pure speculation, but these 'index' could be the equivalence of the Chapter Approved/Generals Handbook. Updated points and new missions.

This way the game gets an annual update (support) and we get suckered into buying a new book every year ($$$).

AoS and 40k already do this. I can see HH following this 'formula'.

 

Basically, wargaming moving towards a subscription format.

 

Just speculation...

Edited June 19, 2021 by bushman101

[Cris R]

Pure speculation, but these 'index' could be the equivalence of the Chapter Approved/Generals Handbook. Updated points and new missions.

This way the game gets an annual update (support) and we get suckered into buying a new book every year ($$$).

AoS and 40k already do this. I can see HH following this 'formula'.

 

Basically, wargaming moving towards a subscription format.

 

Just speculation...

Folks explored this concept in this thread I created a while back: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366725-chapter-approvedgenerals-handbook-for-aod/. But it sounds like the 9th edition indices - note the rumors point to multiple indices, not just one index - will cover what exists in the HH range. Beyond that, I’m not entirely sure Specialist Games has the resources to support the AoD Black Book series and Legion Approved expansions for the 9th edition indices. We’ll know more soon but I would guess they’re going to stay the course and focus on the Black Books as the vehicle to keep exploring new campaigns and introduce new units, which may get their own 9th edition PDF that you can download from the FW website.

[Marshal Loss]

I'm expecting (and hoping) that they switch from the black book format to the supplement system used in Adeptus Titanicus.

[Doghouse]

 

I don't think anyone is saying there will be a complete overhaul, for now it sounds like some potential minor changes and maybe a means to use your armies in 40k.

I just don't think minor changes can do anything to allow you cross play. What minor changes to the units would allow that?

 

 

They wouldn't have to change it to allow cross play, they could adopt some aspects of 9th such as dreadnoughts getting wounds or add movements stats to modernize 7th as some have rumoured then do a full on conversion via an index that lets you play the Legions in 9th.

That way existing players can use 7th while the newer 40k initiates can use their armies to play against the likes of xenos.

 

I think it'd be great if 30k really took off but I personally don't think it will, I think we'll see an influx of players till the next big 40k release and more will use the models in their 40k armies than 30k.

[Beren]

The rumor seems pretty specific- supplements maintained by GW that let people who want to play using 9ths format do that, but it also has pretty clear bait like "Dark Mechanicum" which literally doesn't have a list today.

 

 

If I were looking to hedge my bets, "a series of indexes/red book equivalents for each faction" would be exactly what I'd say, because that's obviously going to happen whether it goes to 9th or not. Dark Mechanicum having a separate book to Mechanicum also doesn't make much sense at launch as they share virtually every unit....

 

edit: spelling

 

Except that we had solid seminar information that a Dark Mech list was thouroughly in the works, and was even originally slated for Crusade, including Dark Mech specific units. If they were that far into creating one, and they're already planning a re-release/update of every single released list as well, then there's little reason not to release the Dark Mech one along with the rest.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Except that we had solid seminar information that a Dark Mech list was thouroughly in the works, and was even originally slated for Crusade, including Dark Mech specific units. If they were that far into creating one, and they're already planning a re-release/update of every single released list as well, then there's little reason not to release the Dark Mech one along with the rest.

 

Dark Mechanicum having a separate book to Mechanicum also doesn't make much sense at launch

 

I'm sure it will happen eventually, Dark Mechanicum have been "in the works" for a very long time. But I doubt it would happen at launch. DM feel like something they'd want to release to fanfare on its own merit rather than slip in a bunch of new stuff amidst what is already shaping up to be a huge release.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Gorgoff]

If HH goes 9th I'd sell my stuff and say :cuss you FW. No thank you, I don't want to play such a stupid game designed for casual gamers and children.

Edit: I know technical speaking a teenager is no child but from my perspective the difference are to slim to matter.

In all honesty I am a little bit fed up by that kind of wishlisting. Plastic this plastic that: sure, why not.

Killing the game for every adult which want and likes the pacing of the games mechanics so far just to lure very few kid into HH? Hard to imagine.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Gorgoff

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is saying there will be a complete overhaul, for now it sounds like some potential minor changes and maybe a means to use your armies in 40k.

I just don't think minor changes can do anything to allow you cross play. What minor changes to the units would allow that?

They wouldn't have to change it to allow cross play, they could adopt some aspects of 9th such as dreadnoughts getting wounds or add movements stats to modernize 7th as some have rumoured then do a full on conversion via an index that lets you play the Legions in 9th.

That way existing players can use 7th while the newer 40k initiates can use their armies to play against the likes of xenos.

 

I think it'd be great if 30k really took off but I personally don't think it will, I think we'll see an influx of players till the next big 40k release and more will use the models in their 40k armies than 30k.

Right but an index that converts to 9th removes the need to implement any aspects.

 

I'm not against giving bespoke movement stats, however I don't just want them slapped on everything but their points not really reflect the new efficacy. Basically I don't want what happened with 8th; they change fundamental parts of the game but point cost units as if they worked the same way.

 

Same thing with dreadnoughts. They'd need a drastic overhaul in points if you suddenly made them monstrous creatures and all the bonuses (no one shot, no weapon arcs, move through cover, natural ignore armour) and negatives (vulnerability to low strength weapons, less weapons able to be fired).

 

I don't really care if the game "takes off". What I want is sustained and consistent rules support more than anything. I want FAQ's and updates. The last large overhaul of things was 2016 and we got a drop pod faq, 3 core FAQ's (one of which just readded parts of the old FAQ's that got left out like which units got implacable) and a custodes faq that was then just kind of resold. To put things in perspective, that's 5 years out of the 9 the game's life cycle and it's had far less content than its initial 4 years.

 

But it's clear from the leaks that the box set was ready a few years ago and probably meant to coincide with the cut resin line. Knowing how GW holds back stuff to tie into one big release, it seems like the big plastic release got punted down the line while the rules were held hostage.

[Doghouse]

We'll just have to wait and see but there are going to be people upset either way I'd imagine.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

If HH goes 9th I'd sell my stuff and say you FW. No thank you, I don't want to play such a stupid game designed for casual gamers and children.

Edit: I know technical speaking a teenager is no child but from my perspective the difference are to slim to matter.

In all honesty I am a little bit fed up by that kind of wishlisting. Plastic this plastic that: sure, why not.

Killing the game for every adult which want and likes the pacing of the games mechanics so far just to lure very few kid into HH? Hard to imagine.

 

Honestly, if it drives away people who view 'casual' gamers, kids or neurodivergent folks with contempt, and who dismiss people that play 9th as children, it'll certainly make the community healthier

[sarabando]

 

 

If HH goes 9th I'd sell my stuff and say you FW. No thank you, I don't want to play such a stupid game designed for casual gamers and children.

Edit: I know technical speaking a teenager is no child but from my perspective the difference are to slim to matter.

In all honesty I am a little bit fed up by that kind of wishlisting. Plastic this plastic that: sure, why not.

Killing the game for every adult which want and likes the pacing of the games mechanics so far just to lure very few kid into HH? Hard to imagine.

Honestly, if it drives away people who view 'casual' gamers, kids or neurodivergent folks with contempt, and who dismiss people that play 9th as children, it'll certainly make the community healthier

I don't think this is fair. Theres plenty of gamers who want a mature, complex wargaming experience. 9th and GW in general have been pushing for a less complex game and miniatures to make it easier on younger players. The people who want a more "grown up" game have just as much right as any one else.to their game.

Heresy always has been that game and from what I see.the community seems to prefer the more in-depth rules. Personally it wouldn't affect me as I don't play I just paint.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

 

If HH goes 9th I'd sell my stuff and say you FW. No thank you, I don't want to play such a stupid game designed for casual gamers and children.

Edit: I know technical speaking a teenager is no child but from my perspective the difference are to slim to matter.

In all honesty I am a little bit fed up by that kind of wishlisting. Plastic this plastic that: sure, why not.

Killing the game for every adult which want and likes the pacing of the games mechanics so far just to lure very few kid into HH? Hard to imagine.

Honestly, if it drives away people who view 'casual' gamers, kids or neurodivergent folks with contempt, and who dismiss people that play 9th as children, it'll certainly make the community healthier

I don't think this is fair. Theres plenty of gamers who want a mature, complex wargaming experience. 9th and GW in general have been pushing for a less complex game and miniatures to make it easier on younger players. The people who want a more "grown up" game have just as much right as any one else.to their game.

Heresy always has been that game and from what I see.the community seems to prefer the more in-depth rules. Personally it wouldn't affect me as I don't play I just paint.

 

 

I personally would rather it didn't change to 9th, but this idea of complexity being for 'mature' wargamers, or that Heresy's current level of inaccessibility makes it more 'grown up' is incredibly condescending - making a ruleset more streamlined or easier to comprehend simply makes it more accessible to a wider range of people, many of whom may be experienced wargamers put off by how the heresy ruleset is currently presented.

 

I've been making rules in the current ruleset for years, and it can often be a nightmare - I'm also someone with multiple learning disabilities in their 20s who wishes that 30k was more accessible and honestly, this continued insistence that Heresy's current inapproachable ruleset (which is often more to do with formatting than there being much wrong with the substance) is somehow a more mature game for the discerning player contributes hugely to the off-putting reputation Heresy players often have.

 

I would set Titanicus as the sterling example - it has simple core rules that can be added to with layers of complexity, and I've never heard anyone around here referring to it's players as casual gamers or children (I would also like to emphasize there is *NOTHING* wrong with being either and wanting to play Heresy) - there's simply an exclusionary mindset.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

If HH goes 9th I'd sell my stuff and say you FW. No thank you, I don't want to play such a stupid game designed for casual gamers and children.

Edit: I know technical speaking a teenager is no child but from my perspective the difference are to slim to matter.

In all honesty I am a little bit fed up by that kind of wishlisting. Plastic this plastic that: sure, why not.

Killing the game for every adult which want and likes the pacing of the games mechanics so far just to lure very few kid into HH? Hard to imagine.

Honestly, if it drives away people who view 'casual' gamers, kids or neurodivergent folks with contempt, and who dismiss people that play 9th as children, it'll certainly make the community healthier

How did you get any contempt of neurodivergent people? What would that even look like?

 

And here's the thing with his overarching point. If the people who currently play 30k for the rules like the tactical depth and granularity, then changing editions removes that; 8th+ was built to simplify all the systems to the point of abstraction about could appeal to the most people possible;i.e. the lowest common denominator. So the frustration is about the game potentially being changed away from what makes it special just to appeal to a different audience.

 

I know a ton of heresy people just like it for the narrative. I see this a lot online, especially when it comes to rules queries, but a not insignificant portion like it for its mechanics; celebrating their potential departure because they feel like 8th+ is shallow and not a real wargame isn't a sign of a healthy community either.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

 

If HH goes 9th I'd sell my stuff and say you FW. No thank you, I don't want to play such a stupid game designed for casual gamers and children.

Edit: I know technical speaking a teenager is no child but from my perspective the difference are to slim to matter.

In all honesty I am a little bit fed up by that kind of wishlisting. Plastic this plastic that: sure, why not.

Killing the game for every adult which want and likes the pacing of the games mechanics so far just to lure very few kid into HH? Hard to imagine.

Honestly, if it drives away people who view 'casual' gamers, kids or neurodivergent folks with contempt, and who dismiss people that play 9th as children, it'll certainly make the community healthier

How did you get any contempt of neurodivergent people? What would that even look like?

 

And here's the thing with his overarching point. If the people who currently play 30k for the rules like the tactical depth and granularity, then changing editions removes that; 8th+ was built to simplify all the systems to the point of abstraction about could appeal to the most people possible;i.e. the lowest common denominator. So the frustration is about the game potentially being changed away from what makes it special just to appeal to a different audience.

 

I know a ton of heresy people just like it for the narrative. I see this a lot online, especially when it comes to rules queries, but a not insignificant portion like it for its mechanics; celebrating their potential departure because they feel like 8th+ is shallow and not a real wargame isn't a sign of a healthy community either.

 

 

You read the tone of the post right? The insistence that anyone who doesn't adore the current Heresy ruleset or that plays 40k is a child or a casual gamer? I know plenty of neurodivergent folks who prefer systems like 40k/ AoS and can't face the heresy because it's presented in such a convoluted manner, and they get tarred with the same broad stroke - also "stupid" is a word that literally means people with learning disabilities, like me.

 

Anyway, for more of the substance of what I'm talking about, read my post above yours.

[Marshal Rohr]

I believe it was Skimask that pointed out once the way the game works now is with stats and rolls are essentially done in a vaccuum. The way you hit and fight isn’t influenced by what you hit and what you fight and that is kind of at the core of the issue for me. Fighting a Breacher should be different than a Dreadnaught should be different to a palatine blade. The damage and saves shouldn’t be the only things taking into account what is being done, the unit itself should influence how the fight goes. So if they can keep that granularity while converting to 9th, it’s all good in my book.

[Noserenda]

It's also a mistake to assume the people still invested in 7th Ed are the only ones interested in Age of Darkness, significant numbers of players are put off my those rules too. Although only GW knows the exact balance.

 

Its a big mistake to confuse complexity with depth too, for every system that adds interest there is often a couple just wasting valuable brain run time, like most of the movement rules.

 

More players mean more ideas and armies seeing the light, more events, more money invested by GW and generally better times, gatekeeping is just toxic nonsense most of the time.

[Slips]

We are moving on from this current line of discussion effective immediately.