State of the Union (Heresy)

[Brofist]

Mechanically bland? Well, yeah, they are imperial fists!

 

Jokes aside I could see them being pretty fun in ZM. I do wish they'd let you run a RoW or something, to really lean into that compulsory HQ angle for those smaller point games.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

One of my friends is convinced the huscarls are a hard pass haha

I followed some online discussions about them.

My conclusion is, that they are an ok choice in your army.

Not a game changer.

Tartaros with the same gear are only 10 points cheaper, exactly like Phoenix Terminators.

Tartaros with the same gear are at least 40 points more expensive, since you don't need to spend points on your compulsory HQ with huscarls.

To be fair, the HQ tax is somewhat moot if you're taking an HQ choice with the intent of actually using it (and the kit IFs have access to makes their vanilla characters potentially some of the best).

 

I've yet to see anyone complain that Huscarls aren't particularly good (as I've expressed elsewhere, they feel like a sideways/slight diagonal step from Legion Terminators), but they are quite mechanically bland, not to mention a missed opportunity for an extremely cool Tartaros unit in the style of the Praetor - which could still be coming, I'm not necessarily certain that these are the final iteration of Huscarls. It's more the fact that they are just a slightly more tailored version of the Legion Terminators, without the interesting special rules reserved for others. I've no doubt they'll appear in good IF lists, but that flavour feels missing in a Legion that is already somewhat lacking in it.

 

 

Really depends how you look at it. An HQ that provides some strategic synergy from its warlord trait or inherent special rules can definitely be justified; a beatstick that doesn't add do anything for the army is more of a sunk cost fallacy imo. The fact that they score is kind of the deciding factor; why make a praetor who can fight when I can just have more wounds that are immune to instant death and can score objectives? Maybe even skip the filler entirely and go Huscarls+Dorn+Troop Legion Terminators to maximise high durability, non-contested slot scoring. 

[Noserenda]

Having seen a lot of forces over the years a beatstick Praetor is pretty standard issue unless you are taking a Primarch. Its one of my niggles with the current Marine list tbh that such an exalted officer is so common and their loadout so effectively fixed because Paragon blades are so good for the cost :D 

[Cris R]

Having seen a lot of forces over the years a beatstick Praetor is pretty standard issue unless you are taking a Primarch. Its one of my niggles with the current Marine list tbh that such an exalted officer is so common and their loadout so effectively fixed because Paragon blades are so good for the cost

I think the melee HQ options for for smaller scale games like ZM is where things become more interesting if you're picking one HQ for your list. I play Blood Angels and my go-to HQs are Delegatii, Legion Champions, and Warmongers. In contrast to Praetors, where you can kit them out to address nearly all situations, those three HQs have different tradeoffs in abilities and point costs that you need to assess as you build your list. It definitely makes the list-building process more interesting and fun in my opinion.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Cris R

[MegaVolt87]

 

Having seen a lot of forces over the years a beatstick Praetor is pretty standard issue unless you are taking a Primarch. Its one of my niggles with the current Marine list tbh that such an exalted officer is so common and their loadout so effectively fixed because Paragon blades are so good for the cost

I think the melee HQ options for for smaller scale games like ZM is where things become more interesting if you're picking one HQ for this role. I play Blood Angels and my go-to HQs are Delegatii, Legion Champions, and Warmongers. In contrast to Praetors, where you can kit them out to address nearly all situations, those three HQs have different tradeoffs in abilities and point costs that you need to assess as you build your list. It definitely makes the list-building process more interesting and fun in my opinion.

 

Yeah I find it hard to list build because a second HQ can eat the points of something "really cool", downgrading you to take something that's just "cool". I think its a testament to the game where most stuff is worth considering IMO. 

[Mogsam]

I've long stopped taking a praetor with paragon blade and had a single delegatus with a power fist. The praetor with a paragon blade is my legions equivalent of a special character.

 

He won't win as easily as a praetor, but ST8 ID often means he might come out in top and he's at least 40 points or so cheaper.

 

I went to an event a while ago and someone described my lists as "bargain bin heresy" which I think is fair. Cheap and cheerful units win heresy against deathstars because you have nothing important enough that losing it is an issue. That 1000 point firedrake deathstar is wasted on my 270 points of volkites in a rhino.

[zedmeister]

I've long stopped taking a praetor with paragon blade and had a single delegatus with a power fist. The praetor with a paragon blade is my legions equivalent of a special character.

 

He won't win as easily as a praetor, but ST8 ID often means he might come out in top and he's at least 40 points or so cheaper.

 

I went to an event a while ago and someone described my lists as "bargain bin heresy" which I think is fair. Cheap and cheerful units win heresy against deathstars because you have nothing important enough that losing it is an issue. That 1000 point firedrake deathstar is wasted on my 270 points of volkites in a rhino.

What do typically take in your lists?

Edited September 8, 2021 by zedmeister

[Lucien Eilam]

Hopefully the other bargains in that bin included kraken penetrator missiles, plasma guns, and scoring units, because the only victory Rhinos full of volkite are likely to win in that scenario is moral.  A kill is a kill when you’re counting victory points.

 

I’ll normally back 4-5 units versus 1, but those 4-5 still have to be units that can score, kill things, or both.

[Bung]

 

To be fair, the HQ tax is somewhat moot if you're taking an HQ choice with the intent of actually using it (and the kit IFs have access to makes their vanilla characters potentially some of the best).

I've yet to see anyone complain that Huscarls aren't particularly good (as I've expressed elsewhere, they feel like a sideways/slight diagonal step from Legion Terminators), but they are quite mechanically bland, not to mention a missed opportunity for an extremely cool Tartaros unit in the style of the Praetor - which could still be coming, I'm not necessarily certain that these are the final iteration of Huscarls. It's more the fact that they are just a slightly more tailored version of the Legion Terminators, without the interesting special rules reserved for others. I've no doubt they'll appear in good IF lists, but that flavour feels missing in a Legion that is already somewhat lacking in it.

 

 

I am following the discussions on some other channels.

As said earlier my feeling is, that this was planned on a rather short time using the existing kits GW / FW has to offer and there is at that time no intention in doing more Legion Units.

 

The problem is most people expect Huscarls need to offer something else, but the most i have seen is IF need 2 wound Terminators withj shields for cheaper Firedrakes.

No real usefull ideas just meh dont like.

 

So what do you want Huscarls to be?

 

An extremly customisable Unit?

There are already Command Squads and Veterans

 

Someone like Archamus?

Pick your Consul upgrade?

 

If you read the red background information on the page of the Huscarls GW decided them to be Elite Phalanx Warders with the task to defend the most vital stuff and in this they are doing an ok job witth their rules.

 

What i miss in most of that discussions is some real critic with an alternative not just nay saying and hopefully some better ideas than just copypaste some other legion units.

 

ISure i would have liked something else with new models, like most other people, something with more experimental gear.

[Scammel]

 

 

To be fair, the HQ tax is somewhat moot if you're taking an HQ choice with the intent of actually using it (and the kit IFs have access to makes their vanilla characters potentially some of the best).

I've yet to see anyone complain that Huscarls aren't particularly good (as I've expressed elsewhere, they feel like a sideways/slight diagonal step from Legion Terminators), but they are quite mechanically bland, not to mention a missed opportunity for an extremely cool Tartaros unit in the style of the Praetor - which could still be coming, I'm not necessarily certain that these are the final iteration of Huscarls. It's more the fact that they are just a slightly more tailored version of the Legion Terminators, without the interesting special rules reserved for others. I've no doubt they'll appear in good IF lists, but that flavour feels missing in a Legion that is already somewhat lacking in it.

 

 

I am following the discussions on some other channels.

As said earlier my feeling is, that this was planned on a rather short time using the existing kits GW / FW has to offer and there is at that time no intention in doing more Legion Units.

 

The problem is most people expect Huscarls need to offer something else, but the most i have seen is IF need 2 wound Terminators withj shields for cheaper Firedrakes.

No real usefull ideas just meh dont like.

 

So what do you want Huscarls to be?

 

...

 

What i miss in most of that discussions is some real critic with an alternative not just nay saying and hopefully some better ideas than just copypaste some other legion units.

 

ISure i would have liked something else with new models, like most other people, something with more experimental gear.

 

Well, here you go:

 

'Huscarls are expertly skilled in coordinating the force fields built into their Vigil-pattern Storm Shields - to the extent that they can offer a measure of protection to nearby allies and serve as the bedrock of a battleline. To represent this, when every model in a unit of Huscarls is in base-to-base contact with at least one other Huscarl, other friendly units within 6 inches count as benefitting from the effects of an Atomantic Pavise.'

 

Or, 'Characters automatically pass "Look Out, Sir!" rolls when accompanied by a unit of Huscarls.' Or some form of Dolorous Blow (trade in all attacks for a single one at double Strength at Initiative 0). Or only scatter 1D6 to reflect experience in boarding actions.

 

That's a handful of ideas devised in five minutes, some more powerful, some tertiary. Any one of them would be a mechanical pinch of nutmeg. I would want them to be something just a bit more interesting than slightly upgraded Legion Terminators, but with fewer kit options.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Scammel

[SkimaskMohawk]

Man people who just want fist firedrakes don't seem to get the design philosophy of forgeworld. The stronger the legion rule and rites, the weaker the special units. This avoids units that are boosted too far by overlapping special rules (though the night lords kinda cheated by that one).

 

Firedrakes have a pretty good Statline, but are very expensive for that extra wound and weapon skill, have no real special rule and their legion rules and rites have 0 synergy; they operate exactly how their statline tells you they will. Huscarls get a situational boost to their weapon skill, get a boost in challenges and have direct synergy with both rites (and are HQ as I keep on saying). So if they did have 2 wounds, they'd have to be dramatically more expensive than their current cost.

[Mogsam]

Hopefully the other bargains in that bin included kraken penetrator missiles, plasma guns, and scoring units, because the only victory Rhinos full of volkite are likely to win in that scenario is moral. A kill is a kill when you’re counting victory points.

 

I’ll normally back 4-5 units versus 1, but those 4-5 still have to be units that can score, kill things, or both.

Volkites, sabres, rapiers, land speeders with grav, cortus with fists and grav. Drills with vets, predators in armoured breakthrough etc.

 

Lots of cheap and effective units are out there. You don't need a 400 point unit if plasmas in a rhino when a pair of sabres is 160.

 

Target saturation is a thing!

[Tarm]

 

Volkites, sabres, rapiers, land speeders with grav, cortus with fists and grav. Drills with vets, predators in armoured breakthrough etc.

Lots of cheap and effective units are out there. You don't need a 400 point unit if plasmas in a rhino when a pair of sabres is 160.

 

Target saturation is a thing!

 

 

I am always far more worried when facing an army with multiple threats than an army with a single deathstar unit. You can easily manoeuvre around deathstars or feed them chaff. Not so against sabres, speeders and drills!

[No Foes Remain]

So I've seen some pictures of that IF Terminator Praetor, he's as big as Dorn and a Phalax Warder body is as big as his legs. The Artificer armour one is on the same scale as the rest of the arty armoured praetors.

[Gorgoff]

Someone doesn't now how to scale properly while adjusting the 3D printers, eh? 

[No Foes Remain]

Apparently not...

[derLumpi]

Wow, that is big!!!

[Marshal Rohr]

Awesome, that means you can swap out his power sword and use it for a Dorn conversion at the siege.

[Robbienw]

Blimey, yeah that's got to have been a sizing error when the master was printed

 

Sizing errors have happened before in a few cases with newer GW plastics.  Not this dramatic though.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Robbienw

[Corswain]

At least it's a single model, not a squad. Pollux was supposed to be nearly as big as the Primarchs (as was Abaddon etc. etc.) So I can still reconcile it in the head canon.

[jaxom]

So Dorn is masquerading as a Terminator Praetor until they develop Centurion armour?

[MegaVolt87]

The scale is terrible, a termi armoured legionary should be like a power armoured legionary standing near a termi legionary when talking primarchs size. If this guy was an AL, SW or SoH I could understand being larger than usual, but this is ridiculous. Now Custodes are going to look small SMH. Fine GW, new scale Custodes and Primarchs please. 

 

Custodes Tribune: You're a big guy.

Legion Praetor: For you. 

[Astartes Consul]

Will probably be worth waiting to see the scale of the UM Praetor in terminator armour before any of us get upset about scaling to be honest...

[m0nolith]

As it is, yeah they’re Custodes size…but not Valdor’s size, and I think that’s a key takeaway from this.

 

I think there’s going to be a upscaling across the board, but not to the extent of these Praetors. There’s the chance that from now on HQ units will generally bigger than regular infantry.

 

It’s weird, I’m not a fan of it, but hey it worked for World Of Warcraft for years.

Edited September 9, 2021 by m0nolith

[Tyrannicide]

They’re not going to rescale everything to this extent. In the case of the IF Terminator it looks like a simple print scale error. Any new plastics coming will be similar in size/scale to the CSM plastics. I don’t have any insider knowledge but just looking at the grainy pics of the new Mk6 it’s pretty easy to deduce.