State of the Union (Heresy)

[Marshal Rohr]

The Outer Circle has no redeeming value and exists only to grievance monger. RFT is a hobby channel, first and foremost, and constructive about theyre negativity as you say. It’s inappropriate to compare TOC and RFT. Both represent strains of the Heresy community and its current state, the latter coming from a place of love and the former entirely coming from resentment and animosity. Macca is essentially just the 3D printer go brrrr reply guy with a platform.

[Armillion]

Overall I agree with the statement that the game doesn't need a constant influx of new units and models to survive, it already has a huge number of kits and volumes of rules to support it, along with a massive and longstanding community that enjoys it.  HH would easily survive (though stagnate) if GW dropped it tomorrow, just like the numerous other game systems and communities that survived without official support for years or decades.

 

Things like more legions specific praetors and leviathans are nice, but not ultimately necessary.  If they were to discontinue making new ones (even though they haven't gotten to either Death Guard or Raven Guard which are my two main HH armies right now), I wouldn't be upset, since I'm just as likely to convert up my own since the hobby side is what personally enjoy the most.  The fact that some of the older legions are comparatively unloved in terms of getting rules updates or new units isn't necessarily weird so much as how newer legions have had an excessive amount of rules content, new units, and models lavished upon them.  No offense to those playing the relative newcomer legions  and its wonderful that those options for gameplay, lore, and hobby are available to the entire community.

 

Ultimately though its the lack of an easy entry point, unlike every other GW game system, that seems to be the main issue.  A base set of core, common units in plastic benefits everyone, new and old players alike.  (The same for SA or Mechanicum would be nice too and help lift them out of niche-dom... but small steps first).

Literally just a MkII assault squad(and tacs perhaps), MkIV assault squad, some MkIII breachers, diemos rhinos & predators, and boom, 75% of an army there once you add in the existing few plastic kits, add FW to taste.  Easily enough to form the core of any fluffy army for any legion under most rites of war without even having to resort to FW for those who don't like resin or balk at its price.  With a little conversion work, those kits go even further and can substitute for legion specific units if you dig around for suitable conversion bits.

 

The fact that FW's production has been hampered this last year has certainly been frustrating as I tend to bundle things together so that I get free shipping but you can't reliably do that because while you are waiting for one thing in your cart to go back in stock, the others will go out of stock making planning of units or purchases quite a challenge.  I hope as some sense of normality returns in the face of global events that this becomes more the exception than the rule, along with returning to normal events.

 

I'm optimistic that the future is bright as some have hinted at, just a little drip-drip communication would help us all with the wait 

[Blood-worm's Master]

So we have some WHC content today. A DA showcase.

 

https://bit.ly/3u86rUg?fbclid=IwAR04VmN06j1hQtgmCQIuGrq98lYwlShSgxBgacRJnRW-UQjoiXgVikgBkPg

 

This made me happy. It doesn't have to be all crunch and releases, even just giving us some time on WHC to show off some glorious collections indicates to the users that the system does still have merit.

 

This is beyond huge, cause it looks like that Dimi is Anuj's replacement. According to his LinkedIn he started in November, just before Anuj left.

So Neil isn't alone with Heresy after all (and never was, really).

 

 

What? I think that’s a little strong.... I don’t think I’ve read any posts in this thread that support that theory. Alan Bligh was the architect of the heresy, so naturally people will judge things by the standard that has already been set. I think people can be too harsh in their judgements at times, but they are entitled to their opinion.

 

I do think it’s unhelpful to keep referencing Alan’s passing as an ongoing reason for the apparent stall in progress of the HH, when it’s clearly multifactorial.

 

Cadmus

 

 

Yeah, what's more I think it's for example quite a common knowledge that John French wrote almost half of Black Books 1-7.

 

[Hfran Morkai]

I've just checked out his linkedin profile and you could be right.

 

I'm not aware of FW releasing a lot of written stuff barring their HH books for a while so it does seen entirely plausible he's on the Heresy (plus we know he's got an interest in the Heresy).

[Bloody Legionnaire]

If out of stock products are any sign, I'd say the state of the Heresy in the U.S. is going strong. The amount of products that have gone from "available to order" to "no longer available" or "out of stock" just this week has been pretty astounding. I was eyeing the Land Raider MkII over the weekend for my Word Bearers. Checked it Tuesday morning.. still in stock. Went back to check it Tuesday afternoon and it was gone. 

That's been the case for 5 or 6 kits I was thinking about buying this past weekend. Maybe it's panic buying as U.S. buyers see product go out of stock, they start buying up whatever is available. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

So we have some WHC content today. A DA showcase.

 

https://bit.ly/3u86rUg?fbclid=IwAR04VmN06j1hQtgmCQIuGrq98lYwlShSgxBgacRJnRW-UQjoiXgVikgBkPg

 

This made me happy. It doesn't have to be all crunch and releases, even just giving us some time on WHC to show off some glorious collections indicates to the users that the system does still have merit.

I’m sure I’ve seen that army on social media before. It’s a superb force, so nicely painted and converted

 

 

Can't help but feel teased by all the MkII armor in the pictures though :(

[Marshal Loss]

Thought I'd type up some musings, might be a bit adrift from discussion, but here goes:

 

FW (& GW) deserve a lot of criticism for how 30k has been handled over the last few years. There appears absolutely no interest in addressing long-running issues with the game, which is a big enough issue in itself, but the biggest problem is and always has been communication. HH appeared for a long time to be FW's raison d'etre but the writing was appearing on the wall as early as 2015, when it became apparent that they didn't have enough staff to keep up momentum while existing contributors were being moved to different teams. We've seen people float away for years now with replacements few and far between, watched many of the figures who gave us the books and models we all love start making models for other systems instead, observed other games like Necromunda and Adeptus Titanicus rise up and flourish, and heard all but nothing while this has been happening.

 

It may be true that there are great things in the future for heresy. There have certainly been fleeting moments of promise over the last few years, I'm not going to lie and say it's been a bleak nightmare 24/7. A giant wave of plastic releases and a new supplement system may well be around the corner. Either way, there's a major perception problem here that the company needs to address. 30k is set up like a game past its use by date, one comfortable for those who have been steeped in it since its inception but which is all but impenetrable to newcomers. There isn't even a starter set, for goodness' sake. This isn't entirely FW's fault, but most of the responsibility does fall firmly at the feet of the folks making the big decisions. For those of us who have been around since the beginning, we saw 30k grow from what looked like a small niche release to a vast model range more spectacular than anything we could have dreamed of. We've also seen, over the last few years, that promise drop off, releases dry up, communication disappear, so forgive me if I chuckle when I read people saying "everything is totally fine don't worry about it". Bizarre management decisions have been around since the beginning, but while before they were mildly inconvenient, now they appear actively harmful to the game's long-term future. That the future might be golden yet we know nothing speaks volumes. It's indefensible, and the community deserves better.

 

Criticism on the internet is a tricky line to walk - even here, which is generally a great place to enjoy the hobby. Criticise GW and you're overly negative; support GW and you're a sycophant. Sometimes people push back against negativity (or positivity) with excessive hyperbole. Statements like "we don't need constant support" or "we don't need constant releases", broadly speaking, miss the point. Who is asking for constant support or constant releases? Any visible support, any communication at all, anything would be a huge upgrade on what we've received over the last few years. I'd take a detailed WHC article that reassures the community that 30k still matters to the company over a dozen releases in a heartbeat. I'd put up with delay after delay and diligently save up my pennies if FW assured us that the game was transitioning behind the scenes and great things awaited. Actions speak louder than words, but in the absence of action (or when action is by necessity hidden from the public's gaze), words are better than nothing.

 

It's fantastic that the heresy community is full of creativity and passion, which is a testament to the brilliant work done by Alan Bligh & many others. 30k still lives. But a world in which 30k thrives and new people are encouraged to join is one in which we all benefit. The game in its current state is a far cry from that ideal, and it thriving in some places proves nothing. You can't measure success by how quickly something goes out of stock when we aren't privy to the levels of said stock. I say this as somebody who is a devoted fan, one who has benefited from living in some of the best 30k-playing areas on the planet.

 

Not targeting anybody, just wanted to chime in/provide my $0.02.

 

edit: all that time typing and I still had a typo, fml

Edited March 31, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Blood-worm's Master]

I messaged Anuj and he was kind enough to reply. From what he understands Dimi 'is background writer only' and also confirmed that Neil remains a Heresy Lead (so I guess he's the one taking care of the rules).

 

But he also wrote me that 'There’s a couple of new designers too' - which I feel is equally huge news.

 

Edit: I hope there's another Alexandre Dumillard-level genius among them ;)

Edited March 31, 2021 by Blood-worm's Master

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

When did Dimi go back to FW? I thought he left years ago?

 

What was he before, writer? Painter?

 

 

So we have some WHC content today. A DA showcase.

 

https://bit.ly/3u86rUg?fbclid=IwAR04VmN06j1hQtgmCQIuGrq98lYwlShSgxBgacRJnRW-UQjoiXgVikgBkPg

 

This made me happy. It doesn't have to be all crunch and releases, even just giving us some time on WHC to show off some glorious collections indicates to the users that the system does still have merit.

 

This is beyond huge, cause it looks like that Dimi is Anuj's replacement. According to his LinkedIn he started in November, just before Anuj left.

So Neil isn't alone with Heresy after all (and never was, really).

 

 

Do we know what Andy Hoares' involvement is? I thought he was the new lead, could have sworn I recall an article late 2019.

 

I've just checked out his linkedin profile and you could be right.

 

I'm not aware of FW releasing a lot of written stuff barring their HH books for a while so it does seen entirely plausible he's on the Heresy (plus we know he's got an interest in the Heresy).

 

Highlighted in red what I think is really important to me and many of my local mates. When you have passion for a project, it'll be tighter, feel more loved. I get that you can't always give projects to people who love them, but compare the sculpts of the Blood Angels to the Space Wolf ones. Banana fur. No weapon grips, upside down bolters. 

 

I am excited to see what a crew that loves the Heresy is able to sculpt, write, and create for us. 

 

I messaged Anuj and he was kind enough to reply. From what he understands Dimi 'is background writer only' and also confirmed that Neil remains a Heresy Lead (so I guess he's the one taking care of the rules).

 

But he also wrote me that 'There’s a couple of new designers too' - which I feel is equally huge news.

Hopefully they're going to re-look at some of the older rules, Sons of Horus, Emperors' Children, Death Guard, World Eaters... the first book or two, they need some love. EC and SoH in specific!

[Marshal Rohr]

I thought Dimi was a painter or sculptor before and he and Prom left around the same time.

[Darkwrath121]

Do we know what Andy Hoares' involvement is? I thought he was the new lead, could have sworn I recall an article late 2019.

 

I'm pretty sure he's the overall lead of Specialist Games (so he's overseeing Necromunda, Titanicus, Heresy, Aeronautica etc), though he's always been a Heresy fan, it seems. He's been working on some more nice EC on his Instagram currently, in fact. Edited March 31, 2021 by Darkwrath121

[Dagoth Ur]

Dimi rings a bell as a name - did he use to be part of the team? Anyone know any specifics about his contributions?

[Marshal Loss]

He was a painter. Used to have a popular blog over on Warseer. Some of the things he painted are still on the website, e.g.

 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Thought I'd type up some musings, might be a bit adrift from discussion, but here goes:

 

FW (& GW) deserve a lot of criticism for how 30k has been handled over the last few years. There appears absolutely no interest in addressing long-running issues with the game, which is a big enough issue in itself, but the biggest problem is and always has been communication. HH appeared for a long time to be FW's raison d'etre but the writing was appearing on the wall as early as 2015, when it became apparent that they didn't have enough staff to keep up momentum while existing contributors were being moved to different teams. We've seen people float away for years now with replacements few and far between, watched many of the figures who gave us the books and models we all love start making models for other systems instead, observed other games like Necromunda and Adeptus Titanicus rise up and flourish, and heard all but nothing while this has been happening.

 

It may be true that there are great things in the future for heresy. There have certainly been fleeting moments of promise over the last few years, I'm not going to lie and say it's been a bleak nightmare 24/7. A giant wave of plastic releases and a new supplement system may well be around the corner. Either way, there's a major perception problem here that the company needs to address. 30k is set up like a game past its use by date, one comfortable for those who have been steeped in it since its inception but which is all but impenetrable to newcomers. There isn't even a starter set, for goodness' sake. This isn't entirely FW's fault, but most of the responsibility does fall firmly at the feet of the folks making the big decisions. For those of us who have been around since the beginning, we saw 30k grow from what looked like a small niche release to a vast model range more spectacular than anything we could have dreamed of. We've also seen, over the last few years, that promise drop off, releases dry up, communication disappear, so forgive me if I chuckle when I read people saying "everything is totally fine don't worry about it". Bizarre management decisions have been around since the beginning, but while before they were mildly inconvenient, now they appear actively harmful to the game's long-term future. That the future might be golden yet we know nothing speaks volumes. It's indefensible, and the community deserves better.

 

Criticism on the internet is a tricky line to walk - even here, which is generally a great place to enjoy the hobby. Criticise GW and you're overly negative; support GW and you're a sycophant. Sometimes people push back against negativity (or positivity) with excessive hyperbole. Statements like "we don't need constant support" or "we don't need constant releases", broadly speaking, miss the point. Who is asking for constant support or constant releases? Any visible support, any communication at all, anything would be a huge upgrade on what we've received over the last few years. I'd take a detailed WHC article that reassures the community that 30k still matters to the company over a dozen releases in a heartbeat. I'd put up with delay after delay and diligently save up my pennies if FW assured us that the game was transitioning behind the scenes and great things awaited. Actions speak louder than words, but in the absence of action (or when action is by necessity hidden from the public's gaze), words are better than nothing.

 

It's fantastic that the heresy community is full of creativity and passion, which is a testament to the brilliant work done by Alan Bligh & many others. 30k still lives. But a world in which 30k thrives and new people are encouraged to join is one in which we all benefit. The game in its current state is a far cry from that ideal, and it thriving in some places proves nothing. You can't measure success by how quickly something goes out of stock when we aren't privy to the levels of said stock. I say this as somebody who is a devoted fan, one who has benefited from living in some of the best 30k-playing areas on the planet.

 

Not targeting anybody, just wanted to chime in/provide my $0.02.

 

edit: all that time typing and I still had a typo, fml

 

Marshall, I appreciate your write up and thoughts. Not to focus on what may be a minor point, could you elaborate on what you mean by "newcomers" in the 30k/HH setting? When I started collecting HH models/armies, I had been in the 40k hobby for about 4 years and had some knowledge of the game and background. Maybe if 30k/HH would become a formal brand of FW and something they could make their "own" things would be different, but even then I think it would be hard to get straight newcomers into the system without starting in 40k first. 

 

Does anyone know how much of an impact the coronavirus pandemic has made on the ability for FW and 30k/HH to progress? 

 

Is it possible that the release of plastic boxsets and a consistent streak of rules/book releases gave us in the community unrealistic expectations on the rate of progress? IMO 30k/HH has always been niche, and I don't think there are any of us here who would doubt that. I've been on this forum long enough to know we are never going to see a semblance of consensus among the community.. but I guess I'm a little surprised to see how bad some of the "doom and gloom" has gotten. 

[Joe]

Much of this thread was referencing back to 2019, where it looked fairly promising as far as getting things back on track. No reason to get too bent up over some of the memes in here, it's not truly literal.

 

The hobby is strong as you say, but that's one of the big problems here. There's a large, healthy crew of people that aren't being addressed as customers. Making a MK II plastic kit for instance, would basically be printing money. So why isn't it done? Or how every kit on FW sells out immediately, yet they make Bill the Pony instead of getting WB Praetors out in a reasonable time. I know for instance we're looking at starting a HH group at even the local GW when the tables start opening up, be doing HH games there.

 

I'm also not of the opinion that negativity should be avoided. Negativity without any constructive feedback isn't overly useful, but the channels mentioned there do in fact propose solutions to the things that they do not like, so I would consider them constructive.

I should say my reaction isn't necessarily to this thread in particular - it's a wider commentary on the hobby. Generally speaking I've found people on B&C to be incredibly reasonable for the most.

 

I agree with your points, however - if there must be negativity it must be constructive. Proposing improvements, solutions - just offering basic feedback and communicating ways in which the studio can better support the hobby / community should be the focus, rather than the loud mouths that incessantly cry and moan over x, y and z. As far as the comparisons to the studios other systems goes it's... a tough one. They are clearly spread thin, despite the hiring drive over the last year, and there's certainly been an increased importance on Middle-earth and Necromunda in the last few years (new and shiny, I guess?), but I still don't feel like it's been massively at the expense of Heresy.

 

The Outer Circle has no redeeming value and exists only to grievance monger. RFT is a hobby channel, first and foremost, and constructive about theyre negativity as you say. It’s inappropriate to compare TOC and RFT. Both represent strains of the Heresy community and its current state, the latter coming from a place of love and the former entirely coming from resentment and animosity. Macca is essentially just the 3D printer go brrrr reply guy with a platform.

 

I used to have a far more positive view of RFT, however his recent content has drifted beyond constructive - in fact, his response to the Word Bearers Praetors is downright churlish, and veers towards the more gatekeep-y elements of the community.

 

[jaxom]

 30k is set up like a game past its use by date, one comfortable for those who have been steeped in it since its inception but which is all but impenetrable to newcomers. There isn't even a starter set, for goodness' sake. This isn't entirely FW's fault, but most of the responsibility does fall firmly at the feet of the folks making the big decisions. For those of us who have been around since the beginning, we saw 30k grow from what looked like a small niche release to a vast model range more spectacular than anything we could have dreamed of. 

 

 

When I started collecting HH models/armies, I had been in the 40k hobby for about 4 years and had some knowledge of the game and background. Maybe if 30k/HH would become a formal brand of FW and something they could make their "own" things would be different, but even then I think it would be hard to get straight newcomers into the system without starting in 40k first. 

 

HH is the odd duck. FW was not originally set up for continued production of a separate game line and I don't think it successfully made that transition even as HH gained popularity. Knowledge of the hobby was assumed; as were modeling skills, in the same way as for the original resin IG tanks and upgrade kits ("You may need to fills gaps, etc" to paraphrase). Ditto the idea of units without models; the presence in a book did not ensure eventual models (this was more of an HH issue as FW was usually the opposite; create models and then bundle the rules together in a campaign). One did not get into HH, but 40k and if one wanted a historical or marine-heavy setting in editions where marines were not so great, well there it was. There was no introductory box for it in the same manner that there wasn't an introductory box for Siege of Vraks or Doom of Mymeara.

 

Specialist games fit the original FW model better than HH ever did. Remember, it's not FW making those introductory sets and books. One does not go to FW to learn about those systems, but the GW site. This sort of mismatch is not on the design team's shoulders, but they have to deal with the consequences.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Does anyone know how much of an impact the coronavirus pandemic has made on the ability for FW and 30k/HH to progress? 

 

Is it possible that the release of plastic boxsets and a consistent streak of rules/book releases gave us in the community unrealistic expectations on the rate of progress? IMO 30k/HH has always been niche, and I don't think there are any of us here who would doubt that. I've been on this forum long enough to know we are never going to see a semblance of consensus among the community.. but I guess I'm a little surprised to see how bad some of the "doom and gloom" has gotten. 

 

 

These are excellent points and questions I think. At the beginning of 2020, I think the disruptions had a big impact. However, if you look back, the drop in release rate actually started a little bit beforehand and that exacerbated it. By the end of 2020, I think it had finished as a factor. It wasn't as if they weren't doing weekly releases, they were still doing that, just almost nothing for HH. An effect from any pandemic restrictions you would expect to be distributed amongst the different systems, not completely at the expense of one. If the pandemic was the reason, we would expect to not see consistent, weekly releases for all the other systems they support.

 

I don't think the expectations are unreasonable. Every other game system, no matter how small, has an introductory boxset in plastic. Expecting one is not unreasonable if everything from 40k to Aeronautica can have one.

 

 

 

I should say my reaction isn't necessarily to this thread in particular - it's a wider commentary on the hobby. Generally speaking I've found people on B&C to be incredibly reasonable for the most.

 

I agree with your points, however - if there must be negativity it must be constructive. Proposing improvements, solutions - just offering basic feedback and communicating ways in which the studio can better support the hobby / community should be the focus, rather than the loud mouths that incessantly cry and moan over x, y and z. As far as the comparisons to the studios other systems goes it's... a tough one. They are clearly spread thin, despite the hiring drive over the last year, and there's certainly been an increased importance on Middle-earth and Necromunda in the last few years (new and shiny, I guess?), but I still don't feel like it's been massively at the expense of Heresy.

 

Fair enough. I agree that some folks are getting a bit too much into that, but at the same time, I totally understand them being antsy. Support has almost entirely collapsed in the wake of Book 9. There's been no mention of anything to come, pretty much no communication and the last model reveal was a year ago at this point.

 

Considering we're down something like 75-85% in kit releases as compared to 2019, the most recent normal year, it has actually been significantly at the expense of Heresy. They pretty much cannibalized the entire 2020 release catalog for Middle-Earth and Necromunda, which can be shown in measurement.

Edited March 31, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Marshal Loss]

Not to focus on what may be a minor point, could you elaborate on what you mean by "newcomers" in the 30k/HH setting? When I started collecting HH models/armies, I had been in the 40k hobby for about 4 years and had some knowledge of the game and background.

 

Fair question. By newcomers I don't necessarily mean people who are totally unfamiliar with the Horus Heresy, although this is just as applicable to them as it is to a seasoned veteran. I'm simply referring to people, broadly defined, who might be looking to start the game. 30k is not supported on shelves in GW stores, receives practically no attention on WHC/WHTV, has no starter set or other means to lessen what is at times an outrageous cost, and is produced mainly in a medium that many in the community have mixed feelings on for various reasons (resin). The community is quite active on the internet & in some parts of the world, if you're lucky, but you have to know where to look. That's a terrible environment for beginners, whether we're talking about a 40k veteran or somebody who may have picked a Horus Heresy novel but has no prior relationship with 40k (which, given the popularity of the HH novel series, does happen).

 

Compare it to 40k, or Age of Sigmar, or Adeptus Titanicus, or Necromunda, or Middle Earth, or Aeronautica Imperialis. It's a terrible look.

 

Is it possible that the release of plastic boxsets and a consistent streak of rules/book releases gave us in the community unrealistic expectations on the rate of progress? IMO 30k/HH has always been niche, and I don't think there are any of us here who would doubt that. I've been on this forum long enough to know we are never going to see a semblance of consensus among the community.. but I guess I'm a little surprised to see how bad some of the "doom and gloom" has gotten.

This is worth commenting on. The Age of Darkness was in some ways an accidental success. FW used the Badab War as a sort of trial to gauge interest, but the HH took off in a spectacular fashion that they clearly didn't expect (and have admitted at such at HH Weekenders; their plans went from a thin range of models + Primarchs to something far more grandiose in scale and reach). Can only speculate as to why - dissatisfaction with the state of 40k at the time no doubt played a part - but with it being so profitable, FW went wild, often over-promising and under-delivering, but the pace of progress left people generally satisfied. People being able to buy FW products in their home currency meant that in some parts of the world, what was considered an elitist hobby in one place was actually more affordable than mainstream GW plastic in another. All of these factors and more combined together to give 30k a roaring start to life.

 

I think the simple truth is that people didn't expect FW's most important product to start feeling like an afterthought, and there was never any communication to explain why the change in focus and direction. Even when I went to HH Weekenders in 2015 and 2016 the FW designers were constantly talking about their plans for books and new models, showing off sketches and talking about their future projects while simultaneously saying that "we're going to get more designers" "we're hiring now" "we've lost some people, but the team will expand again". That never happened. The HH team got smaller and smaller and smaller until it was shadow of its former glory, all with no explanation from anybody. Even the HH Weekender became the HH + Necromunda Weekender before disappearing entirely. Alan Bligh died and the game lost its biggest champion & head designer. 8th edition 40k came and wiped out a substantial portion of the playerbase, with the prospect of a 30k army for people in a predominately 40k community suddenly becoming far less appealing. Primarchs came back to 40k, further chiseling away at 30k's uniqueness.

 

There are always going to be some with unrealistic expectations, one way or another, but the main responsibility re: expectations falls firmly at the feet of Forge World. I don't think it's fair to say that there were unrealistic expectations when most simply thought that things would go on largely as they had done in prior years; when the situation changed, and with no message coming from FW, it's not hard to understand why there's so much doom & gloom in various quarters, even if some of it is a little melodramatic. As I said above, it's all about perception.

[lansalt]

Youtube as a medium rewards drama and clickbait over careful and calm arguments. I've found Leakycheese the only HH channel worth watching even the few times I didn't agree with what he said (I guess it helps that it's mostly about the buiding models part of the hobby)


Sadly it seems a lot of the people and great information are in FB groups like Crusade and Heresy, which carries other problems: you can't browse old posts easily or search them. Not to mention the need for a FB account and other people peeping at your interests.

 

That's why I prefer traditional forums like B&C.

[StrangerOrders]

My two cents is that the article was pleasing, the guy clearly has a great deal of passion and those Dark Angels are gorgeous. I am very glad that he is aboard.

 

More excitingly, I do not think they would have allocated the space to do the article if there was not something planned to happen.

 

Granted, I might just be being deluded. But I genuinely think there is hope there.

 

On a related note, it does seem that MKIV Assault sets for one thing are vanishing across the board. I have tried toggling to a number of different country options and they seem to be genuinely exiting production (or the mold is broke). Could this be a hint of it going Plastic?

 

Otherwise, Assault squads seem like to big a seller to just be allowed to vanish.

[Brofist]

Didn't Macca record a 20min video ranting about how, actually, the new pocket tanks are bad or whatever

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

Not to focus on what may be a minor point, could you elaborate on what you mean by "newcomers" in the 30k/HH setting? When I started collecting HH models/armies, I had been in the 40k hobby for about 4 years and had some knowledge of the game and background.

 

Fair question. By newcomers I don't necessarily mean people who are totally unfamiliar with the Horus Heresy, although this is just as applicable to them as it is to a seasoned veteran. I'm simply referring to people, broadly defined, who might be looking to start the game. 30k is not supported on shelves in GW stores, receives practically no attention on WHC/WHTV, has no starter set or other means to lessen what is at times an outrageous cost, and is produced mainly in a medium that many in the community have mixed feelings on for various reasons (resin). The community is quite active on the internet & in some parts of the world, if you're lucky, but you have to know where to look. That's a terrible environment for beginners, whether we're talking about a 40k veteran or somebody who may have picked a Horus Heresy novel but has no prior relationship with 40k (which, given the popularity of the HH novel series, does happen).

 

Compare it to 40k, or Age of Sigmar, or Adeptus Titanicus, or Necromunda, or Middle Earth, or Aeronautica Imperialis. It's a terrible look.

 

Is it possible that the release of plastic boxsets and a consistent streak of rules/book releases gave us in the community unrealistic expectations on the rate of progress? IMO 30k/HH has always been niche, and I don't think there are any of us here who would doubt that. I've been on this forum long enough to know we are never going to see a semblance of consensus among the community.. but I guess I'm a little surprised to see how bad some of the "doom and gloom" has gotten.

This is worth commenting on. The Age of Darkness was in some ways an accidental success. FW used the Badab War as a sort of trial to gauge interest, but the HH took off in a spectacular fashion that they clearly didn't expect (and have admitted at such at HH Weekenders; their plans went from a thin range of models + Primarchs to something far more grandiose in scale and reach). Can only speculate as to why - dissatisfaction with the state of 40k at the time no doubt played a part - but with it being so profitable, FW went wild, often over-promising and under-delivering, but the pace of progress left people generally satisfied. People being able to buy FW products in their home currency meant that in some parts of the world, what was considered an elitist hobby in one place was actually more affordable than mainstream GW plastic in another. All of these factors and more combined together to give 30k a roaring start to life.

 

I think the simple truth is that people didn't expect FW's most important product to start feeling like an afterthought, and there was never any communication to explain why the change in focus and direction. Even when I went to HH Weekenders in 2015 and 2016 the FW designers were constantly talking about their plans for books and new models, showing off sketches and talking about their future projects while simultaneously saying that "we're going to get more designers" "we're hiring now" "we've lost some people, but the team will expand again". That never happened. The HH team got smaller and smaller and smaller until it was shadow of its former glory, all with no explanation from anybody. Even the HH Weekender became the HH + Necromunda Weekender before disappearing entirely. Alan Bligh died and the game lost its biggest champion & head designer. 8th edition 40k came and wiped out a substantial portion of the playerbase, with the prospect of a 30k army for people in a predominately 40k community suddenly becoming far less appealing. Primarchs came back to 40k, further chiseling away at 30k's uniqueness.

 

There are always going to be some with unrealistic expectations, one way or another, but the main responsibility re: expectations falls firmly at the feet of Forge World. I don't think it's fair to say that there were unrealistic expectations when most simply thought that things would go on largely as they had done in prior years; when the situation changed, and with no message coming from FW, it's not hard to understand why there's so much doom & gloom in various quarters, even if some of it is a little melodramatic. As I said above, it's all about perception.

 

Once again, I appreciate the responses and the discussion. 

 

The only HH I follow on social media is the30kchannel and various facebook groups for the armies I play and 30k/HH hobbying/gaming groups. I've not familiar with any of the characters that have been talked about in the last few pages of this thread. For whatever reason after leaving active duty and going to school fulltime, the past 3.5 years have kind of all run together for me in all things warhammer related (regardless of game) and I'm not as up to speed as I'm sure all of you guys are. In general, everything has appeared pretty good from my perspective. FW has put out some incredible releases model wise (white scars stuffs, blood angel stuffs) and from what I can remember some okay to mediocre rule releases. I know we all love the game we play and are completely invested in it and it's hard to accept things not meeting expectations. I believe I'm pretty satisfied from the model hobbying side of this hobby. I've also been very impressed by the things FW has released. Is that something maybe they don't get enough credit for? I think you make a great point on where the state of HH is now compared to what it was at the start. Thank you for that insight because I was oblivious to all of that. Considering what 30k/HH started as compared to what we have today, would you not say that you're mostly satisfied? At least over the 50% mark? 

 

I must confess, I haven't had a chance to play a single game of 30k/HH yet. Life has been in a constant state of transition with sprinklings of chaos and I haven't settled in to finish the legions I started initially (then curse the "resin crack buy everything I can and finish nothing" reality that seems to be a necessary element of this hobby). It doesn't help that GW keeps killing it with 40k releases and no matter how many times I tell myself I'm going to swear off 40k and go 30k/HH exclusively, I find a new army to collect and geek out over. Anyway.. I digress. I started in 6th edition and miss all of the dynamics that made warhammer 40k what it was. All of those things are still attractive for me when it comes to my outlook on 30k. I'm still interested in the game and want to play it and there isn't a whole lot that is going to stop me from wanting to collect and finish my legions. I suppose for those who do have legions and no one at all to play against, that would become frustrating and demoralizing. From that point I'd like to emphasize the best thing for all of us is just to own the community we choose to be in. If you're able to invest in more than one legion, you can continue to play with whomever you want to and keep it going. Participating in threads like this and sharing in the community will also go a long way to keeping spirits high. Emperor fordbid FW ever stops making rules, nothing says the community has to end as well, but that's worst case scenario and I don't know if any of us are really convinced that's 100% going to happen. Are there any other GW related specialist games that bring in the amount of money 30k/HH does? 

 

I'd also like to make somewhat of an off topic point... some of the issues in the 30k/HH community aren't so alien. There are plenty with grievances and frustrations with the direction 40k is going in a well. Granted the pool is large, and the community as a whole may appear to be more satisfied. However, that doesn't necessarily mean 40k is absolutely in a better spot. Unfortunately, I believe this is another area we'll never see a consensus. There's plenty of 30k/HH players who want a system more like current 40k, and I can't imagine for the life of me why. I don't want to side track the thread with that point. I do your point on the number substantial number of players that dropped for 8th had more to do with their commitment to this niche in the hobby. To me it appears more like bandwagon hopping than it does players who were legit committed to a system. Why should we be surprised considering the number of power gamers and WAAC gamers who at times weren't evening painting armies just to field the newest broken tourney winning lists/units. To some up my point, lets not get distracted by the idealistic outlook over more sober realistic outlook. 

 

A point for models.. I personally feel like opening up a FW in the US caused some issues for them. I have nothing to base this on but conjecture, but I wonder if the vision for what they wanted to accomplish became an unrealistic distraction which set them back. I know the virus didn't help but it's not like things were running smoothly in the states before the virus hit. It appears to me FW in the UK has been much better at keeping things in stock and shipping them out than the US FW has been. It's possibly this is a move GW/FW did not have planned out very well. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Bloody Legionnaire

[MegaVolt87]

Didn't Macca record a 20min video ranting about how, actually, the new pocket tanks are bad or whatever

 

I remember tha one being more towards how the rules were not worth the points, more than how it looked. He actually has liked a lot of the new releases model wise, most complaints are at the rules lately. His style is very abrasive, its an Australian thing call a spade a spade, where a a stanger is a mate and your friends are  . Australians take pricing seriously, because everyone screws us on pricing. A high average take home salary is meaningless, because we actually have a high cost of living here. 3D printer go brrr is valid when stuff is discontinued, FW can't lose sales on what they no longer continue to produce or on limited edition models that should have stayed in production like the relic blade praetor and named characters which should have stayed in the character series. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by MegaVolt87

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

 

I don't think the expectations are unreasonable. Every other game system, no matter how small, has an introductory boxset in plastic. Expecting one is not unreasonable if everything from 40k to Aeronautica can have one.

 

That is what I think upsets the majority of people trying to get into 30k, or veterans trying to pull their hesitant pals into it. If Aeronautica can have a starter set (now two), which some would argue is a niche game (an enjoyable one I might add, but still niche), the Age of Darkness system should as well. The Aeronautica starter sets were also very fairly priced too, compared to the initial Titanicus one!

 

 

Not to focus on what may be a minor point, could you elaborate on what you mean by "newcomers" in the 30k/HH setting? When I started collecting HH models/armies, I had been in the 40k hobby for about 4 years and had some knowledge of the game and background.

 

Fair question. By newcomers I don't necessarily mean people who are totally unfamiliar with the Horus Heresy, although this is just as applicable to them as it is to a seasoned veteran. I'm simply referring to people, broadly defined, who might be looking to start the game. 30k is not supported on shelves in GW stores, receives practically no attention on WHC/WHTV, has no starter set or other means to lessen what is at times an outrageous cost, and is produced mainly in a medium that many in the community have mixed feelings on for various reasons (resin). The community is quite active on the internet & in some parts of the world, if you're lucky, but you have to know where to look. That's a terrible environment for beginners, whether we're talking about a 40k veteran or somebody who may have picked a Horus Heresy novel but has no prior relationship with 40k (which, given the popularity of the HH novel series, does happen).

 

Compare it to 40k, or Age of Sigmar, or Adeptus Titanicus, or Necromunda, or Middle Earth, or Aeronautica Imperialis. It's a terrible look.

 

Is it possible that the release of plastic boxsets and a consistent streak of rules/book releases gave us in the community unrealistic expectations on the rate of progress? IMO 30k/HH has always been niche, and I don't think there are any of us here who would doubt that. I've been on this forum long enough to know we are never going to see a semblance of consensus among the community.. but I guess I'm a little surprised to see how bad some of the "doom and gloom" has gotten.

This is worth commenting on. The Age of Darkness was in some ways an accidental success. FW used the Badab War as a sort of trial to gauge interest, but the HH took off in a spectacular fashion that they clearly didn't expect (and have admitted at such at HH Weekenders; their plans went from a thin range of models + Primarchs to something far more grandiose in scale and reach). Can only speculate as to why - dissatisfaction with the state of 40k at the time no doubt played a part - but with it being so profitable, FW went wild, often over-promising and under-delivering, but the pace of progress left people generally satisfied. People being able to buy FW products in their home currency meant that in some parts of the world, what was considered an elitist hobby in one place was actually more affordable than mainstream GW plastic in another. All of these factors and more combined together to give 30k a roaring start to life.

 

I think the simple truth is that people didn't expect FW's most important product to start feeling like an afterthought, and there was never any communication to explain why the change in focus and direction. Even when I went to HH Weekenders in 2015 and 2016 the FW designers were constantly talking about their plans for books and new models, showing off sketches and talking about their future projects while simultaneously saying that "we're going to get more designers" "we're hiring now" "we've lost some people, but the team will expand again". That never happened. The HH team got smaller and smaller and smaller until it was shadow of its former glory, all with no explanation from anybody. Even the HH Weekender became the HH + Necromunda Weekender before disappearing entirely. Alan Bligh died and the game lost its biggest champion & head designer. 8th edition 40k came and wiped out a substantial portion of the playerbase, with the prospect of a 30k army for people in a predominately 40k community suddenly becoming far less appealing. Primarchs came back to 40k, further chiseling away at 30k's uniqueness.

 

There are always going to be some with unrealistic expectations, one way or another, but the main responsibility re: expectations falls firmly at the feet of Forge World. I don't think it's fair to say that there were unrealistic expectations when most simply thought that things would go on largely as they had done in prior years; when the situation changed, and with no message coming from FW, it's not hard to understand why there's so much doom & gloom in various quarters, even if some of it is a little melodramatic. As I said above, it's all about perception.

 

I miss checking when the pound was down to place big orders... those were the days. 

 

Didn't Macca record a 20min video ranting about how, actually, the new pocket tanks are bad or whatever

Hehehe... pocket tanks. 

 

[StrangerOrders]

Huh....erm...

 

Im seeing that even alot of Primarchs are entering 'Sold Out' rather than 'Out of Stock'... has that happened before? I cant recall it and its mildly concerning lol.