State of the Union (Heresy)

[Slips]

Welp, it appears that there might be consequences for that NDA being broken and these leaks happening :\

 

Loose lips sink ships and all that.

[WrathOfTheLion]

That sucks for someone I guess. Is that just conjecture, or is information on that making rounds elsewhere?

 

Wonder if we'll see any official acknowledgment before adepticon, or whether they'll hold out until then.

[Slips]

I have it on good authority but thats all I'll say on the subject.

 

Regardless, yes, everything is looking good and I'd put any official announcement in and around Adepticon; thats usually when FW have done big reveals in the past that werent part of the weekender or other big GW event earlier in the year (Q1 or Q2)

[WrathOfTheLion]

Makes sense. I don't have social media, so I have to inquire as to whether that's just something going around there that I'm not aware of.

 

Adepticon is only like three weeks away, so I'd think as you say it's probably to be announced then.

[Brofist]

Welp, it appears that there might be consequences for that NDA being broken and these leaks happening :\

 

Loose lips sink ships and all that.

this is doing better marketing their dead game than what their community has put out for the last 2+ years

[WrathOfTheLion]

There's all sorts of people talking about it right now, there's even a few of us that have started getting games going of the current edition at the local Warhammer store.

[Slips]

 

Welp, it appears that there might be consequences for that NDA being broken and these leaks happening :\

 

Loose lips sink ships and all that.

this is doing better marketing their dead game than what their community has put out for the last 2+ years

 

I only hope GW keeps allowing external playtesters after this because breaking an NDA puts everyone who signed one to perform a similar, if not the same, job under suspicion so they just might nuke the whole process wholesale to prevent anything they dont want happening.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Can they really be that surprised though? I had release statistics implying that they were going to do a new edition by like October/November 2020 which I've posted in previous threads way back at the time, it was quite noticeable to anyone paying attention, I think even before Book 9 released.

[bushman101]

I'm mostly neutral to everything I'm seeing so far.

I don't much care for Reactions, but they seem limited in number (overall) and in use (during the turn).

 

I'm curious to what the rest of the rules look like, but if this is what is spoiled, hopefully that is the last of the 'big surprises '.

[Slips]

Can they really be that surprised though? I had release statistics implying that they were going to do a new edition by like October/November 2020 which I've posted in previous threads way back at the time, it was quite noticeable to anyone paying attention, I think even before Book 9 released.

I think the problem is not so much the knowledge of the new HH game being a thing and being on the way is the problem.

 

As a personal example, I can say Im on the dev team for the next bioshock game but because of the NDA I signed I cant discuss any project-specific details if I did I'd more than likely get blacklisted nearly wholesale across the industry.

 

So, in this case, its the fact that whole pages are being screenshot and leaked with "PHASE 3 PLAYTEST" plastered all over the internet that is the problem.

 

If it was just a sentence here or there without any actual images being shown it would have been a LOT less worse.

[Brofist]

 

 

Welp, it appears that there might be consequences for that NDA being broken and these leaks happening :\

 

Loose lips sink ships and all that.

this is doing better marketing their dead game than what their community has put out for the last 2+ years

 

I only hope GW keeps allowing external playtesters after this because breaking an NDA puts everyone who signed one to perform a similar, if not the same, job under suspicion so they just might nuke the whole process wholesale to prevent anything they dont want happening.

 

They don't really have a choice- either they test externally and make a better game or they keep it in-house and produce a lower quality product. There's a reason they do the former. Leaks also only help their bottom line, even if they put on a show about not liking it. Some companies even intentionally do leaks and create controversy because its free marketing.

[Cris R]

I'm mostly neutral to everything I'm seeing so far.

I don't much care for Reactions, but they seem limited in number (overall) and in use (during the turn).

 

I'm curious to what the rest of the rules look like, but if this is what is spoiled, hopefully that is the last of the 'big surprises '.

I’m definitely excited about the new rules and anyone who is on the fence about reactions will change their minds the first moment they see it work for them. Yes, you’ll be irritated when it works against you but I think the community will warm up to them when it helps improve the gaming experience.

 

Also, it’s entirely plausible event organizers can always introduce their own rules or limits on reactions as well for gaming events, so there’s a lot of ways the community can shape them once everyone is up to speed with the new rules.

[Brofist]

 

Can they really be that surprised though? I had release statistics implying that they were going to do a new edition by like October/November 2020 which I've posted in previous threads way back at the time, it was quite noticeable to anyone paying attention, I think even before Book 9 released.

I think the problem is not so much the knowledge of the new HH game being a thing and being on the way is the problem.

 

As a personal example, I can say Im on the dev team for the next bioshock game but because of the NDA I signed I cant discuss any project-specific details if I did I'd more than likely get blacklisted nearly wholesale across the industry.

 

So, in this case, its the fact that whole pages are being screenshot and leaked with "PHASE 3 PLAYTEST" plastered all over the internet that is the problem.

 

If it was just a sentence here or there without any actual images being shown it would have been a LOT less worse.

 

Hey cool, I worked on BSI and Bio Shock 2 Hopefully you uh, don't have to interact with Ken very much

Edited March 3, 2022 by Brofist

[Slips]

 

 

Can they really be that surprised though? I had release statistics implying that they were going to do a new edition by like October/November 2020 which I've posted in previous threads way back at the time, it was quite noticeable to anyone paying attention, I think even before Book 9 released.

I think the problem is not so much the knowledge of the new HH game being a thing and being on the way is the problem.

 

As a personal example, I can say Im on the dev team for the next bioshock game but because of the NDA I signed I cant discuss any project-specific details if I did I'd more than likely get blacklisted nearly wholesale across the industry.

 

So, in this case, its the fact that whole pages are being screenshot and leaked with "PHASE 3 PLAYTEST" plastered all over the internet that is the problem.

 

If it was just a sentence here or there without any actual images being shown it would have been a LOT less worse.

 

Hey cool, I worked on BSI and Bio Shock 2 Hopefully you uh, don't have to interact with Ken very much

 

Nah, hes not on it, Hoagy is though!

[WrathOfTheLion]

Ah, it's been a while since I've done NDAs for things like that. I'm on the tools side of the gaming industry, so I don't handle games directly like that.

 

For anyone curious though, these were the numbers I ran back in September of 2020

 

No, go back and look at 2019.

 

So in 2020, we have had revealed:

3 characters - Lion, Qin Xa and Saul Tarvitz

2 Praetors - Word Bearers PA and Terminator praetors
3 DA kits - interemptors, Cenobium and Companions

1 NL kit - Contekar

3 vehicles - Arquitor bombard variants

2 Upgrades - Umbra boltguns and Tartaros power axes

 

For a total of 14 so far announced, which would take at least through October I think.

 

In 2019, there were for Legionnes Astartes - 26 kits:

3 Characters - Sanguinius, Raldoran and Hvarl Redblade

4 BA kits - Angels Tears, Dawnbreaker Cohort, Crimson Paladins and Incaendius dreadnought
4 WS kits - Golden Keshig, Golden Keshig Champion, Ebon Keshig, Kyzagan speeder

1 SW kit - Deathsworn
6 Praetors - WS x2, DA x2 and NL x2

3 Contemptor Dreadnoughts - WS, DA, and UM

3 Leviathan Dreadnoughts - WS, DA and NL
2 Vehicles - Sabre tank, Dreadnought drop pod, could count sabre arsenal as more if counting upgrades.

 

For others:

Mechanicum - total 6:
Moirax (x2)

Moirax upgrades (x2)

Ordinatus Aktaeus

Acastus Knight Asterius

 

Custodes - total 2:

Ares Gunship
Venatari Squad

 

Total of 34 kits at least. So October would be 83% of the year, so at the current rate we would see a bit over half the kits this year as in 2019. Any rate projections would be skewed from ~3 months being shut down, but even so, there's a pretty noticeable dip that was occurring even beforehand.

 

The rate actually dropped more drastically than that in 2020, so one could actually even see the trend back around when the Arquitor Bombard was being released, but it had just started then and would take some time to solidify itself and took me a few months past then to notice it enough to run the numbers.

 

Edit: To further elaborate, I believe not only did the further projection not happen, but actually the WB Praetors and the Contekar, all three were not released in 2020, so the numbers became catastrophically noticeable of like a 75% decrease in releases. ~25% of the year being shut down would not account for such a weighted scheme, especially since at the time it was there were non-character units for 30k being most peoples rationalization as to why they favored Necromunda and Titanicus, and in fact only characters have been released since the Contekar (barring the rerelease of the Destroyers that were removed in 2020).

Edited March 3, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[bushman101]

 

I'm mostly neutral to everything I'm seeing so far.

I don't much care for Reactions, but they seem limited in number (overall) and in use (during the turn).

I'm curious to what the rest of the rules look like, but if this is what is spoiled, hopefully that is the last of the 'big surprises '.

I’m definitely excited about the new rules and anyone who is on the fence about reactions will change their minds the first moment they see it work for them. Yes, you’ll be irritated when it works against you but I think the community will warm up to them when it helps improve the gaming experience.

Also, it’s entirely plausible event organizers can always introduce their own rules or limits on reactions as well for gaming events, so there’s a lot of ways the community can shape them once everyone is up to speed with the new rules.

I hope that's true. I'm not a fan of the similar rules in AoS, but I'll admit that situation is a bit different

[Mogsam]

They're interesting and don't seem too contentious.

 

That said, I really don't think I'm going to like reactions. It feels like a trump card system to get out of bad tactical choices if you can just counter charge or get a free move to avoid one.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They're interesting and don't seem too contentious.

 

That said, I really don't think I'm going to like reactions. It feels like a trump card system to get out of bad tactical choices if you can just counter charge or get a free move to avoid one.

There's the other way though, you could now position things in a certain way as a feint.

[Marshal Rohr]

They're interesting and don't seem too contentious.

 

That said, I really don't think I'm going to like reactions. It feels like a trump card system to get out of bad tactical choices if you can just counter charge or get a free move to avoid one.

If every single unit could do it every turn sure. If it lets you keep one unit from getting spanked per turn that’s not bad at all.

[Rejects of Anvilus]

I’m hoping the tactical side of it should be interesting, trying to guess where your opponent is going to use his points. Setting up multiple charges to overwhelm their defences, is a good example of what you will have to do. Plus any extra character or legion specific ones should give even more flavour to armies. 

[Yodhrin]

They're interesting and don't seem too contentious.

 

That said, I really don't think I'm going to like reactions. It feels like a trump card system to get out of bad tactical choices if you can just counter charge or get a free move to avoid one.

 

I see it as the opposite - Reactions provide new tactical choices, and learning how to use them and anticipate them will really enrich the gameplay*. Despite the name, using them in a purely reactionary way like that, just running away or reflexively shooting back etc will be the newbie move. A smart opponent will use them to manipulate the battlefield to suit their plans, and try to bait their opponent into misusing theirs. For example people have been talking about how being able to shoot back with a powerful but perhaps not hugely durable unit will ensure they at least get to do something useful before dying, but a clever opponent will maneuver several units into range and then hold back the best one to fire against you last, and you're stuck because if you reserve your return fire for the best(and so probably most expensive and best "trade") enemy, you risk being reduced to ineffectiveness by the lesser enemies. And a really clever git will actually be doing all of that just to bait out all of your Reactions for the phase so they can do something else somewhere else on the board.

 

Shooting armies won't be able to blast away for a couple of turns with impunity, but melee armies won't be able to just zerg across the board safe in the knowledge that if they endure for those couple of turns they're guaranteed a blenderfest on turn three. You'll have to hedge your bets on every big play unless you know they've run out of opportunities, and do your best to fake them out to hasten that happening.

 

*again assuming GW can restrain themselves from flooding the game with dozens of the things and too many opportunities to use them

[bushman101]

I guess one of my big fears is as soon as the rules say you can only get 3 Reactions per phase, they will release someone who can get 4 or something just as game breaking.

 

I know we haven't seen everything, but new editions worry me in general

[Astartes Consul]

I guess one of my big fears is as soon as the rules say you can only get 3 Reactions per phase, they will release someone who can get 4 or something just as game breaking.

 

I know we haven't seen everything, but new editions worry me in general

 

I think one thing that might counter this is Heresy's slower rules/update cycle. With 40k at the moment there is a new codex and/or warzone book pretty much every month. Even at the peak of Heresy releases, the number of new rules coming out has never approached that. At most a Black Book, FAQ (lol) and maybe a couple of new unites that have PDF rules provided as a stop gap in a year.

 

The bloat in 40k is facilitated by the fact there is a constant stream of releases. Even if Heresy starts to follow the Necromunda/Titanicus pattern of semi-regular updates via campaign books - which I hope it does - there will still be nowhere near as much new stuff being thrown out as 40k.

 

Just a thought.

[MegaVolt87]

Reactions is definitely going to encourage more considered play using deathstar(s), which is a good thing. 

[Cris R]

 

They're interesting and don't seem too contentious.

 

That said, I really don't think I'm going to like reactions. It feels like a trump card system to get out of bad tactical choices if you can just counter charge or get a free move to avoid one.

 

I see it as the opposite - Reactions provide new tactical choices, and learning how to use them and anticipate them will really enrich the gameplay*. Despite the name, using them in a purely reactionary way like that, just running away or reflexively shooting back etc will be the newbie move. A smart opponent will use them to manipulate the battlefield to suit their plans, and try to bait their opponent into misusing theirs. For example people have been talking about how being able to shoot back with a powerful but perhaps not hugely durable unit will ensure they at least get to do something useful before dying, but a clever opponent will maneuver several units into range and then hold back the best one to fire against you last, and you're stuck because if you reserve your return fire for the best(and so probably most expensive and best "trade") enemy, you risk being reduced to ineffectiveness by the lesser enemies. And a really clever git will actually be doing all of that just to bait out all of your Reactions for the phase so they can do something else somewhere else on the board.

 

Shooting armies won't be able to blast away for a couple of turns with impunity, but melee armies won't be able to just zerg across the board safe in the knowledge that if they endure for those couple of turns they're guaranteed a blenderfest on turn three. You'll have to hedge your bets on every big play unless you know they've run out of opportunities, and do your best to fake them out to hasten that happening.

 

*again assuming GW can restrain themselves from flooding the game with dozens of the things and too many opportunities to use them

 

 

 

 

I guess one of my big fears is as soon as the rules say you can only get 3 Reactions per phase, they will release someone who can get 4 or something just as game breaking.

 

I know we haven't seen everything, but new editions worry me in general

 

I think one thing that might counter this is Heresy's slower rules/update cycle. With 40k at the moment there is a new codex and/or warzone book pretty much every month. Even at the peak of Heresy releases, the number of new rules coming out has never approached that. At most a Black Book, FAQ (lol) and maybe a couple of new unites that have PDF rules provided as a stop gap in a year.

 

The bloat in 40k is facilitated by the fact there is a constant stream of releases. Even if Heresy starts to follow the Necromunda/Titanicus pattern of semi-regular updates via campaign books - which I hope it does - there will still be nowhere near as much new stuff being thrown out as 40k.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

100% agree with both. If 30k remains a system that largely ignores meta-chasing, I think we're going to be fine with the number of reactions players get in games and the overall number available to each player and their legions. It also seems like reactions are a bit of additional flavor for the game, something that really isn't the case with 40k where stratagems play a far bigger role, leaving the door open for more cheese with each book release.

 

And with tactics you can pull off with Reactions, trying to field weapons with pinning or forcing morale checks on your opponent so a unit falls back is going to be really important to negate your opponent's ability to use Reactions, something you'll need to think a few steps ahead to pull off. It'll definitely make the game better for sure. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Cris R