State of the Union (Heresy)

[SkimaskMohawk]

325 points killing 225 points is a very good exchange for the shooter because the shooting unit is still around. It is a rarity you can field an army that can cleanly table their opponent in a round.

Its a good exchange in the later turns. If you're spending 335 points of a full heavy support slot to kill an average of 4 models on turn 1 or 2, then it's a rather poor example of target priority.

 

This goes back to my statement of terminators being very points efficient and mogsam arguing the opposite; youre spending 335 points of output to target 225 of tooled up termies and on average still leave one alive to score and be dealt with later. That's simply a good return on points you pay for their defensive stats. And they score, so they still have use at low strength.

[Gorgoff]

Players who demand 2w terminators don't want them to be tougher against some ingame thing but instead want them to be tough enough to survive their mistakes fielding them.

Whenever this discussions pops up these players claim at some point that they want them to survive the worst possible way to play them: footslogging

What they don't realise is the simple fact that people who already know how to use terminators as well will get a major buff.

[MegaVolt87]

Players who demand 2w terminators don't want them to be tougher against some ingame thing but instead want them to be tough enough to survive their mistakes fielding them.

Whenever this discussions pops up these players claim at some point that they want them to survive the worst possible way to play them: footslogging

What they don't realise is the simple fact that people who already know how to use terminators as well will get a major buff.

 

Player skill is definitely a factor, I have been driving SM/CSM terminators since 3rd ed its an artform IMO. 2w termi's, thus increasing in points also shrink the HH model count somewhat which lowers the entry barrier for newer players. 

[Astartes Consul]

Problem is though that we currently have a mix of 2W and 1W Terminator units, which doesn't seem sustainable...

[MegaVolt87]

I think an extra wound on a terminator would be worth at least an extra 15 points. 

[Noserenda]

Could we not with ad hominem nonsense? It's not like player skill actually has anything to do with opinions on stats, it's a verisimilitude thing. Terminators should laugh off small arms almost entirely but invulnerable saves (while needed) tilt away from that as bigger guns have a fixed chance to do nothing when they could obliterate a power armoured squad or vehicle.

 

I'm away from home so can't easily check but the existing 2 wound terminators aren't a huge bump in points from memory?

[Churchill53]

Think chances are even if terminators go up to 2w, they won’t go up in points. Not for any reason except gamesworkshop won’t miss a chance to sell more models, and increasing points lowers amount of models people may buy (I know most of us just buy things cos they shined and we magpies but still could stop some people that limit themselves to certain points value)

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm away from home so can't easily check but the existing 2 wound terminators aren't a huge bump in points from memory?

That's kind of a weird one to answer.

 

Firedrakes pay 100 points more for their stock squad (275) and get +1 W, +1WS, +1 A on the seargent, and +1 LD on the normal guys. And command squad swap. The extra models are only 10 ppm more though (40); you really don't want to msu them, but you do scale up a lot better.

 

Justaerin pay 85 points more for their stock squad (255) and get the same WS, wound, leadership and command squad swap as the firedrakes; they also get furious charge, stubborn and chosen warriors. And still cost 10 points more than a base terminator per model (40). They're still not quite able to msu, but you get a ton of stats for those 10 points and I'd absolutely take them as a command squad replacement.

 

Red butchers pay 100 more for their stock squad (275) and get the +1 WS, +1 W, +1 attack on the seargent, 6+ fnp fearless, hatred, and reroll charge. They lose implacable and have a debuff to always be hit on 3s. They cost 15 ppm more than normal terminators (45). My hottest of takes is that they're terrible. They're stuck on their double axes and extremely vulnerable to power fists, which hit them on 3s and strike at the same time.

 

Deathshroud pay...85 less for their stock squad (90), gain +1 W, +2 LD and the command squad swap. They cost 10ppm more than normal terminators (40) and I guess I'll mention it here that their base unit size is 2 instead of 5, hence their low unit cost. They're also an HQ option. Nevermind what I said above about that being my hottest take and get ready for this one; deathshroud are insane. Not for fightin, theyre simply pretty ok at that, but for saturating scoring. You can get 7 scoring units in your list, before troops, for 630 points. You can flood the board with 13 scoring units for 1380. Im honestly sad the edition is rolling over because I can't do a crazy scoring list with these guys. Sorry, these guys ruined the list; no other unit can top them.

 

Sekmet are 80 points more for their base unit (255) and get the +1 wound and psychic powers. The psychic powers lead to some really nasty stuff and they're only 5ppm more than standard terminators (35). They're a clear upgrade; take these guys. But they're not death shroud.

 

Varagyr are 95 points more for a base unit (270). They get +1 W, +1 WS, fear, stubborn, accept challenges and get a bonus to combat Rea for winning them. They're 12 ppm more than a basic terminator (42). Imo they're a hard sell, but can of course brick up. They're still quite pricey.

 

I think that's all of them. Most are really designed around being death stars, and they'll do great at it. Unfortunately the the weapons that excel at stopping deathstars gain more value as a result of instant death. Justaerin get a lot for the 10 ppm, sekmet arguably get more. Deathshroud are in a league of their own in my opinion, but that's driven by my love of wonky, scoring heavy lists.

 

Seriously, with mortarion you can get a magic 14 scoring unit list for ~1900 and make up the rest of the points with javelins.

[Noserenda]

Thats a solid analysis, i think it shows how uneven the Legion rules have ended up over time in a microcosm too, thats one of the big benefits of an Index reset, you can look at everything together and make it consistent! 

I think making instant death more of a factor ties into my prior point about preferably making bigger weapons more satisfying to use on terminators too, sure you are still risking the invulnerable save but if they fail that? *squish* dead! :D 

[Hfran Morkai]

@SkimaskMohawk

 

Am I missing something? Pretty sure Varagyr are only 1 wound off the top of my head.

 

I've not looked at them in too much detail as I prefer Tartaros Armour so won't be sorting any Varagyr for a while.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@SkimaskMohawk

 

Am I missing something? Pretty sure Varagyr are only 1 wound off the top of my head.

 

I've not looked at them in too much detail as I prefer Tartaros Armour so won't be sorting any Varagyr for a while.

Oops, I looked at the leaders wound profile and saw 2. That's...really bad then; they're embarrassing compared to justaerin.

[Asbestress]

 

New Exemplary Battles article incoming!

Maybe we could be getting a morsel of a hype generating teaser in it for Adepticon?

[Shovellovin]

 

 

 

New Exemplary Battles article incoming!

 

Maybe we could be getting a morsel of a hype generating teaser in it for Adepticon?

 

We can hope! Adepticon is just two weeks away; I’d guess that we start seeing teasers soon. 

[Noserenda]

By and large in my experience over the years the exact same mix of people are involved at times, but much like an evaporating sea when most of the playerbase is gone/dormant the water is salty and the muck is far more obvious. Gatekeeping is always a toxic and ultimately self destructive action and really has no place in any corner of our hobby.

Especially as the Heresy is likely to see an influx of people looking for a simpler game to play soonish some stand ins is fine if you are even faintly keen on actually expanding the playerbase, most people will not drop hundreds of pounds and weeks of effort up front for a new system just so some stranger on the internet can feel good about the "purity" of someone else's hobby.

[MegaVolt87]

By and large in my experience over the years the exact same mix of people are involved at times, but much like an evaporating sea when most of the playerbase is gone/dormant the water is salty and the muck is far more obvious. Gatekeeping is always a toxic and ultimately self destructive action and really has no place in any corner of our hobby.

 

Especially as the Heresy is likely to see an influx of people looking for a simpler game to play soonish some stand ins is fine if you are even faintly keen on actually expanding the playerbase, most people will not drop hundreds of pounds and weeks of effort up front for a new system just so some stranger on the internet can feel good about the "purity" of someone else's hobby.

 

No, you will pick up the better hobbyists from 40k who are frustrated with their peers who don't bother to paint, model or buy the correct models. Also such people will have a better handle on the rules, because there should be some investment in learning the game. The simple game is 40k, why do we need another "simple game"?. 40k players will buy the HH plastics if GW does their job in making proper firstborn rules in 40k. So, sales targets can be met without dragging HH down to the lowest common denominator. 

 

EDIT- to those who enjoy HH currently, how do you expect to maintain the current standards that HH has which 40k lacks, which is why you left 40k and moved to HH in the first place? What will you do and how will you deal with such 40k players with their attitudes and lack of understanding/ disregard for the HH setting? If you won't gatekeep to maintain standards how will you maintain or improve them? Or will you just quit HH then for the reasons you quit 40k.... 

Edited March 14, 2022 by MegaVolt87

[DesuVult]

 

By and large in my experience over the years the exact same mix of people are involved at times, but much like an evaporating sea when most of the playerbase is gone/dormant the water is salty and the muck is far more obvious. Gatekeeping is always a toxic and ultimately self destructive action and really has no place in any corner of our hobby.

 

Especially as the Heresy is likely to see an influx of people looking for a simpler game to play soonish some stand ins is fine if you are even faintly keen on actually expanding the playerbase, most people will not drop hundreds of pounds and weeks of effort up front for a new system just so some stranger on the internet can feel good about the "purity" of someone else's hobby.

 

No, you will pick up the better hobbyists from 40k who are frustrated with their peers who don't bother to paint, model or buy the correct models. Also such people will have a better handle on the rules, because there should be some investment in learning the game. The simple game is 40k, why do we need another "simple game"?. 40k players will buy the HH plastics if GW does their job in making proper firstborn rules in 40k. So, sales targets can be met without dragging HH down to the lowest common denominator. 

 

EDIT- to those who enjoy HH currently, how do you expect to maintain the current standards that HH has which 40k lacks, which is why you left 40k and moved to HH in the first place? What will you do and how will you deal with such 40k players with their attitudes and lack of understanding/ disregard for the HH setting? If you won't gatekeep to maintain standards how will you maintain or improve them? Or will you just quit HH then for the reasons you quit 40k.... 

 

I would leave HH before I tried to gatekeep HH.  I do not view myself as above other hobbyists or an adjudicator of objective quality.

[Slips]

 

 

EDIT- to those who enjoy HH currently, how do you expect to maintain the current standards that HH has which 40k lacks, which is why you left 40k and moved to HH in the first place? What will you do and how will you deal with such 40k players with their attitudes and lack of understanding/ disregard for the HH setting? If you won't gatekeep to maintain standards how will you maintain or improve them? Or will you just quit HH then for the reasons you quit 40k.... 

 

RE the bold sections: I never ditched 40k to play 30k. I picked up 30k alongside 40k and have been building up my collections for both pretty much simultaneously.

Ive got my 30k IF force (for which I have well over 20k points)

40k Primaris & Firstborn IF

Eldar

Dark Eldar

SoB

Grey Knights in a very limited capacity.

As well as a small and unfinished SCE Army for AoS

 

To assume that EVERYONE/most people who play 30k do so - and/or only because - they straight up ditched 40k is presumptive in the extreme and dangerously small/close minded.

 

That you then go on to further place 30k upon this pedestal in a way as to make it out to be that 30k is this elite/superior gentlemen's club of wargaming is mindboggling. As a member of the AoD forum for at least 8 years now and a moderator for possibly just as long, I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are. No one group is superior, nor is another inferior. The only reason you might even have that perception is because one group is significantly larger than the other therefore much more easier to nit/cherrypick as well as point out the bad because the sample size is oh-so-much larger. That does not, however, mean that the 30k community is devoid of that its just harder to see.

 

I am also curious as to what you even mean by "current standards" because if its about rules, writing, etc. there have been problems with that since the beginning, one just need to go through the various Tactica and Rules threads that exist in this very subforum *cough*ReconCompanyCompulsoryTroops*cough*

 

If you mean "Current standards" in terms of general hobbying, then idk what you're on about just go into this very forums PCA section and look at all the amazing 40k stuff thats being shown there as well as here.

 

I am seriously and honestly flabbergasted.

[jaxom]

Maybe lock this until the next Exemplary Battle; give everyone some time to step away and chill?

[Slips]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/16/new-white-scars-and-emperors-children-units-clash-in-this-free-horus-heresy-mission/

 

New exemplary battles is out.

 

Sunkillers are neat but I think the more interesting unit is the Dark Sons of Death for the White Scars in that its a Destroyer unit that can join a Librarian instead of a Moritat as well as having some nasty, if temporary, buffs.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Slips

[Scammel]

Now that's two Heavy Weapon Squad equivalents that my Fists are jealous of.

[bushman101]

Sunkillers look good if a bit pricey on points. BS 5 and that Precise Shot rule will get work done.

 

The Destroyer unit looks neat....interesting weapon options. Not sure this is the unit Librarians want

[dicebod]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/16/new-white-scars-and-emperors-children-units-clash-in-this-free-horus-heresy-mission/

 

New exemplary battles is out.

 

Sunkillers are neat but I think the more interesting unit is the Dark Sons of Death for the White Scars in that its a Destroyer unit that can join a Librarian instead of a Moritat as well as having some nasty, if temporary, buffs.

I feel like Sunkillers are super good. You're paying +15 points over a vanilla HS squad with lascannons for +1 BS and ignore cover if you don't move...which you won't be doing. Jink is a cover save - au revoir speeders/jetbikes/flyers (even if snap shooting).

 

I also adore the Dark Sons as a concept, like a cross between a veteran and destroyer squad. Weapon options are nice and +10 point power glaives for every guy is just awesome, even if it may be a point sink.

 

Minor point - I think any IC can join destroyers, it's just that Moritats can only join destroyers and no one else. Taking this unit as a command squad for a Librarian though is pretty cool regardless.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sunkillers are a much worse version of havocs. It doesn't really matter how good they are over normal hss, because those already suck. On top of that, EC are one of the worst legions, so it's a shame that they got a trap unit like that.

 

Dark death destroyers are really good. Really, really, good. Maybe not quite as pushed as dawnbreakers or night raptors, but these guys can certainly do the business and can fight terminators with ease.

Edited March 16, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Slips]

Sunkillers are a much worse version of havocs. It doesn't really matter how good they are over normal hss, because those already suck. On top of that, EC are one of the worst legions, so it's a shame that they got a trap unit like that.

 

Dark death destroyers are really good. Really, really, good. Maybe not quite as pushed as dawnbreakers or night raptors, but these guys can certainly do the business and can fight terminators with ease.

If the unit remains as-is then the change to the WS chart in the new edition makes the WS rule less never-use and more maybe-once-in-a-blue-moon.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Slips

[dicebod]

Sunkillers are a much worse version of havocs. It doesn't really matter how good they are over normal hss, because those already suck. On top of that, EC are one of the worst legions, so it's a shame that they got a trap unit like that.

 

Dark death destroyers are really good. Really, really, good. Maybe not quite as pushed as dawnbreakers or night raptors, but these guys can certainly do the business and can fight terminators with ease.

 

...but it doesn't really matter for Emperor's Children if Havocs are better than Sunkillers because EC's can't take Havocs. That's like saying why would you ever take Corax because Leman Russ is better.

 

I enjoying playing Emperor's Children and I feel like they're thematic and punchy. I'm definitely going to build 10 of these!

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by dicebod