9th Edition Thousand Sons Codex Game Feedback

[WarriorFish]

What is everyone's experience/thoughts on 10 model SOTs? I want to build my second squad when I get them to go into the first, but I'm hearing a lot of MSU talk. I do like larger squads though. Or is the best solution getting a third box for the extra Sorcerer to field a second squad, which you can also use for an HQ Sorcerer and heavy warp flamer, plus a couple extra standard SOT for padding?

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I can't imagine facing a real gunline with TS right now. 

 

 

I haven't been able to face a real gunline with any Chaos book since the 8th ed Astra Milatarum book came out so that just sounds normal to me.

[Prot]

What is everyone's experience/thoughts on 10 model SOTs? I want to build my second squad when I get them to go into the first, but I'm hearing a lot of MSU talk. I do like larger squads though. Or is the best solution getting a third box for the extra Sorcerer to field a second squad, which you can also use for an HQ Sorcerer and heavy warp flamer, plus a couple extra standard SOT for padding?

 

I used a 10 man SoT all the time previous to this. But the difference was the strats were different, and worked better with Psychic Awakening. The changes are subtle but in some cases they are nerfed, in some cases they are just cost adjusted now for 10 man squads. 

 

I find in almost every turn I used the -1 damage. Sometimes twice a turn. This is 1 CP, or 3 CP depending on the squad. That is a bit weird to me for it to straight to 3 as it's more powerful on a big squad, but I think that's too much.

 

Second thing is the Cabal Points. That's another knock against the large squad.

 

Finally, maybe less importantly, but still a factor is the change to the extra shots strat. Absolutely amazing in 10 man SoT squads, now it's just adding a single shot.

 

The other side of that coin is the buffs. You put Glamour, or Weaver on and obviously it gets you more mileage.

 

So far I'm playing 3 x 5 man SoT's, but you'll have to play this out yourself I think. I even realize as I'm playing these games that a single 10 man SoT squad could be extremely powerful for bullying mid table against armies that live and die there like marines, etc.

[WarriorFish]

Thanks Prot. I think it sounds best to build as two separate squads to begin with, I can expand to 10 later at higher points and when I have more models done :)

[GreenPlasma]

Regarding your game against Sisters (@Prot), it sounds like it played out like this.

 

I needed my army [sisters of Battle] to lurk behind terrain and be unshootable in a meta with relatively low access to indirect fire, and score a ton of points while doing so. Then I’d need to be ready and capable of counter attacking with extreme prejudice as soon as the enemy crossed that magical 24” line into my killzone.

 

The way this will usually play out is that, after a couple of turns of me inflicting chip damage while outsourcing (sic) my opponent, they’ll usually realize that they have to be more aggressive and act to change the state of the game. At that point it’s my job to punish them! This plan doesn’t work nearly as well if I’m up against an enemy that has access to lots of great indirect fire, but it’s a great baseline strategy.

This strategy is tournament winning (credit to the article on Goonhammer, written by John Lennon) so this going to be a tough nut to crack for Thousand Sons. Without access to better indirect fire, the best counter-strategy is probably outscoring them so they can’t sit in their deployment zone and wait for opportunities to trade units at an advantage.

[Prot]

Yup, pretty much.

 

I realized very early this was going to be the way, but what did surprise me was two fold:

 

- Scarab Occult going down to a squad of MM Retributors. (I thought I'd last a touch longer)

- The close combat of Vaul, Paragon Suits, and 2 squads of Sacresaints (Shield/Halbred) basically tanked my army while I got shot off with the indirect.

 

Those tanks are expceptional. He was considering removing them from his list about a month ago... I convinced him not to. Boy am I really regretting that honesty right about now. lol

 

Edit: Not sure I mentioned it for those who don't know but those missiles are doing D6 damage each. Whatever he pointed them at was dead.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Prot

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Before the new codex games, I always took 1 if not 2 Defilers. So in part, the Fiends improved so much I wanted to try them. 

 

The problem I always had with the Deflier is it is costed to be a split role unit. I wish it was a bit cheaper, but it is a decent unit. I don't think it's good AT at this time though for the points. I am definitely looking for very solid AT at this point since it is clearly chewing me up. I can't imagine facing a real gunline with TS right now. 

 

I may try a Deflier again, I was just very impressed with the Helbrute costs, and I always used them in my Black Legion anyway. With my pre-9th codex way of using Helbrutes, I was chucking them up field with cheap MM's, and using Duplicity to get it in deep when needed.  (It's a nice small foot print for this as well.)

 

We'll see. As it stands I have no idea what to tweak here. I want to test a few altered units, however none of what I like will probably fix my issue here. (Man what I would do for a unit of "Thousand Sons" Oblits!) 

 

The other way is to just crank of the Psyker damage, but this is where I feel things didn't get better for us. Even Doombolt has to hit closest now and has no secondary effect. If you want to cherry pick those deep tank/artillery units, it's very difficult now.

 

So my next game this week I plan on perhaps one of the following:

- Get rid of Enlightened Tzaangors. (Just horrible now IMO)

- Shaman may go too.

- Keep Tzaangors, or replace them with a Rhino (same effect to be honest).

- Alter the Forgefiends?  Get rid of one? Turn one into a cheaper Ecto plasma unit? 

- Add MM Helbrute? (or 2)

- Add Defiler? (or 2)

- Add Baledrake? (or 2) (Actually used these a lot pre-9th ed codex and they just got a little better to me.)

- Consider Forgeworld? - I have a nice dual twin-lascannon Contemptor (-1 CP I believe though). Add in my Mortal Wound Decimator? 

 

So a LOT of options here for Friday's game. I think the other option is to remove the crap from my list and just add Rhino's to double the foot print, while retaining annoying T7 walls... old school rhino walls except with a 5++ and dual Combi bolters.

 

Thoughts?

I would be inclined to add more rubrics/rhinos and try to do as much heavy lifting with smite as possible.  Oh... what about Magnus? :D  

[Ahzek451]

Yup, pretty much.

 

I realized very early this was going to be the way, but what did surprise me was two fold:

 

- Scarab Occult going down to a squad of MM Retributors. (I thought I'd last a touch longer)

- The close combat of Vaul, Paragon Suits, and 2 squads of Sacresaints (Shield/Halbred) basically tanked my army while I got shot off with the indirect.

 

Those tanks are expceptional. He was considering removing them from his list about a month ago... I convinced him not to. Boy am I really regretting that honesty right about now. lol

 

Edit: Not sure I mentioned it for those who don't know but those missiles are doing D6 damage each. Whatever he pointed them at was dead.

His dice rolls must have been hot. That d6 damage is so swingy. Did he use the fate dice at all to manipulate the launcher? Any other bonuses or was it just the indirect fire strat?

[Skerr]

I was thinking the same thing on swingy d6s, but I guess even average damage devastates at heavy volume or the use of strats and other abilities.

 

My plan was 2 five man squads of SoT for the Cabal points also and then experiment with 10 later on.

 

My local shop has had a beginner league for the last 2 months for people who are just getting a chance to play 9th or want to try new armies. Our next go is a week from tomorrow so I will be looking at a 1250 matched play game maybe two. I look forward to hearing more from the Cabal here on B&C on their experiences the next few days with the dex.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Skerr

[Kobrakei]

Been having a flick through the book and I really like it, but it's so difficult to fit everything I like in. Having scarabs as obsec is a boon, as otherwise I'm not 1k sons could compete.

 

I've gone for a big block of 10 Scarabs, and a smaller block of 5 for deep striking when needed. I've also added in two forgefiends with 3xectoplasma - for the points I think they've got some real utility, and certainly present some threat. I did want to fit some helbrutes with lascannons/missile launchers in, but I think they're too swingy for reliable damage against vehicles - I really think that's something I'm going to have to accept is a weakness to any of my lists. Next thing is to work out what relics/cults/powers I need!

[Prot]

Yes his rolling was good, but combined with the Multi Melta Retributors, getting about 10 shots a turn (2 cherubs), the numbers catch up quickly. 

[Trokair]

The Cherubs are one use only, so while it can lead to a strong first turn (or whatever turn they are used) the damage output should have dropped off after that.

[GreenPlasma]

MM Rets don’t need more than one turn to earn their points back. Their weakness is being T3 1W models that cost 32pts (!) per wound. You definitely don’t want their damage to fall off, you want to remove them before they can fire.

 

Vahl has a lot of tricks but is a T5 W8 unit behind her special rules. Her 4++ can be removed with psychic powers, her damage reduction can be removed with the Orrery. The same methods will also apply to Celestine.

 

Exorcists (those missile tanks) are a problem but ultimately I think it’s a trap to take them on. They are much more durable than infantry, they’re hard to get to, and long-range AT doesn’t play to our strengths. The best way to neutralize them is probably just tying them up in 10-15x Tzaangors or even debuff their range with Perplex.

 

I think what is going to win this matchup is a combination of superior mobility, burst damage, and disruption. We have so much customization in terms of relics, WLTs and psychic powers, I think that’s where the real strength of the new codex lies. So to engage in a little heresy... Ahriman is a great caster but doesn’t get an AP3 hand weapon, can’t take a relic, can’t choose a WLT and costs significantly more. Whereas an Aetherstride Disc Sorc can move up to 30” with Warptime, and then smite, flame, and chop as many Retributors as possible before your Terminators come in. That Cult of Knowledge pistol can easily one shot an entire Ret squad on a high roll with rr1’s to wound! There’s always value in flexibility.

[Kouran]

Played a game at 1000 pts. My list was Arhiman, Infernal Master, 10 man rubrics with infernal bolters and soul reaper, 5 man rubrics with bolter and soul reaper, a rhino, a hellbrute with MM and close combat weapon and 5 SOT with the missile rack, all in a Patrol Detachment of the Cult of Time. My opponent a bizarre Krieg list, with 2 basilisk, a Leman Russ with tank commander, and another big tank that I don't remember the name (could it be a Malacador) and the rest, chaft and morters (not the heavy ones), so lots of vehicles and indirect fire. Some impressions:

 

- I was playing against an army that has no codex but this play style (tanks and indirect fire) as mentioned above in the match up against sisters is hard for us. My opponent deployed well, and hold the line on second turn to avoid the SOT  entering in his backyard, so I wasn't able to reach for the basilisks and tanks. The only way I had to arrive there was sending Arhiman, in a hit and run action, doing 3 mw via Punishment  and then 3 more in the combat phase with his staff. He survived the answer and next turn had to run away to avoid being killed. I don't find an answer to this in our codex, maybe a DP or a whirlwind scorpion or Sicarian from FW? The aswer should be in our psiquic powers but I can`t find it due to restrictions (being closer unit, line of sight, distance, small damage output).

 

- Cult of Time is awesome in small games, it makes a difference. I recovered  2 Rubrics and 2 SOT during the game, witch help me a lot to keep playing the game with their obsec. In bigger games I'm not sure it helps that much since you are only casting it in one unit at a time.

 

- If you bring armour to your list you have to commit to this and bring plenty to diverse the treats, otherwise you are going to be blown up, because the 5 invu save isn't enough  to keep small wound units with toughness 7 alive against foucs. My hellbrute and rhino where banished first turn. And I lose my two options against the tanks.

 

- Rubrics and SOT worked well, and are durable enough with cleaver use of the -1 damage reduction strat, the 4+ invu save and glamour.(and Cult of time in my case)

 

- Infernal Master is solid and helped, for 90 pts is a must. I used Malefic whirlwind and Gasp to Eternity (5 and 6 pacts) and are really helpful.

 

- Cabal points and rituals. This are great! Malevolous charge (+1d3 mw) , the one that gives +6", and the one that gives +1 to cast are cheap and very useful, you can confortable cast two of these at a turn, and I was playing a small game.

 

So more or less this is all the intel I got for my first game.  

[Prot]

The Cherubs are one use only, so while it can lead to a strong first turn (or whatever turn they are used) the damage output should have dropped off after that.

 

So keep in mind:

1. Tanks with missiles (two of them)

2. Multimelta Retributors (two turns of shooting before I could get to him)

3. 2 x 10 man squads of Sacesants (sword and board) to stop my ability to get into close combat.

4.  multimelta razorback type vehicles.

5. Paragon Warsuits with missiles and I think melta? Still hard hitting.

6. Vaul sitting in the back with her missiles.

7. An army of 5+ denies coming from everything... including vehicles.

 

That adds up to an extremely hard counter to Thousand Sons, or really any 'elite' infantry, smaller model count army hoping to heavily rely on the psychic phase.

 

By the time "damage output drops off", you have VERY little meaningful push left in the army.

 

Then you reach him, but those 20 Sacresants are ridiculously under costed, and he's getting D3 back a turn, and until you kill them, you can't shoot Vaul -or- Celestine. Both of which are incredibly hard hitting, and extremely survivable. All the while, you're able to perhaps guarantee 1 successful power a turn, and the rest of your powers become a random game show of hoping your opponent does run a hot streak of rolling '5's' to deny.

 

Finally, since SoB will rarely have a psyker, you will not be able to take (what I consider is) our best secondary. Conversely, not having a psyker means SoB can take the best secondary against a psychic army, on top of the one easy one SOB always take, plus "to the last" or whatever it's called which is always placed on the following:

- Celestine (coming back from the dead still apparently allows points for that secondary)

- Vaul (good luck killing what I call "Discount Mini-Guilliman".

- The indirect tank.

 

I didn't want to get so granular, but I think it's really important that people understand that this is going to be one of the hardest match ups in 40K for us before a singe die is rolled. (Just my opinion based on my meta.)

Edited August 15, 2021 by Prot

[Ahzek451]

That's fair. I wonder how well then, removing the invuln save on the sword and board sisters, and committing to an army with guns.

 

Lately I have been favoring defilers, forgefiends, contemptors with volkite + the -1 ap straf + standing next to an exalt/prince + standing next to an exalt with the relic that let's you ignore buffs.

 

Perfect opportunity to give us some new models to help mitigate this weakness GW hint hint wink wink.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

That's fair. I wonder how well then, removing the invuln save on the sword and board sisters, and committing to an army with guns.

 

Lately I have been favoring defilers, forgefiends, contemptors with volkite + the -1 ap straf + standing next to an exalt/prince + standing next to an exalt with the relic that let's you ignore buffs.

 

Perfect opportunity to give us some new models to help mitigate this weakness GW hint hint wink wink.

A good idea to build so that you at least have the option of following Ahriman's example from A Thousand Sons. Change tactics, enhance yourself and blow them away. Sometimes you just can't rely on mind bullets.

 

Also, Sisters were designed as a counter to psykers, and they have existed in the fluff for a long time as killers of heretical Space Marines (among other tasks), so it makes sense that they're a hard matchup for us. Sounds like a job for the Heavy Support choices you mentioned.....as well as our new friends the Super Vortex Brothers (two Beasts being the optimal number). Can't Deny a searing rip in reality that melts your face like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

 

Bonus points for using the "Yeet Beast 9000" strategy from Cult of Duplicity.

 

Perplex seems good for dealing with Exorcists. Warp Sight might help put damage on them too. There are also Heldrakes for cleaning out those hard to reach places (now with Warpflame Gargoyles and Vector Strike).

 

Finally, Sisters have a tendency to castle, so taking a Scheming detachment and using the Theorem to drop a free Coruscating Beam (which we can steer), can help break that up or punish it.

Edited August 15, 2021 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[The Yncarne]

From a sales feedback perspective:

 

- went to a FLGS shortly after they opened yesterday. They had two copies of everything. I picked up the cards. 
- went to another FLGS shortly after opening today. They had 8 Grey Knight codicies and 4 sets of cards. One Sons codex and no cards.

[Ahzek451]

Perplex might be a good candidate for the 6" cabal bonus. The irony with perplex is that it the same range as its ability limits too, so it requires some extra effort to mitigate that. But then again, a sisters missile tank can just move to within 24" to ignore the extra 6" anyway. At least perplex does not require line of sight?

[Prot]

That's fair. I wonder how well then, removing the invuln save on the sword and board sisters, and committing to an army with guns.

 

Lately I have been favoring defilers, forgefiends, contemptors with volkite + the -1 ap straf + standing next to an exalt/prince + standing next to an exalt with the relic that let's you ignore buffs.

 

Perfect opportunity to give us some new models to help mitigate this weakness GW hint hint wink wink.

 

Good ideas. I appreciate the feedback everyone.

 

I actually really hoped that they would juice up the Venom Crawlers and give us access to them. I really like that model and I think it's under powered, and actually has a psychic connection (in its lore). 

 

I have to update on my latest game against Death Guard. But I will say I have a Contemptor, but no Volkites (just dual las) unfortunately. In the game I did use a MM Helbrute, but wow, they just don't last long. Paired with the Forgefiend it did give the fiend a better chance at survival.

 

The SoB hit so hard in ranged, and have an extremely respectable CC element while protecting their characters. It's really kind of silly, but I can see why everyone takes them. It just so happens with their innate ability to deny, it becomes just really muddy, and extremely unpredictable. (You feel like you can't plan on anything actually working beyond 1 power a turn.)

 

I will say in the closing turn, I did shut off Vaul's Invuln, and hit her with a Daemon Sword, but she had a FnP and survived, (I think that gave her a 5+ save anyway because she has a 2+ naturally.. I'm trying to remember, but I think it was the FnP that kept her standing). She is rerolling everything though, and took out half a squad of Scarabs in that same turn.

 

The shooting is so much stronger than what we can do, I actually shifted away a teeny bit. I want more Termies, more Obsec, double moving, and trying to go back to a larger single squad to make it as painful as possible for the likes of SoB shooting to shift the Scarabs off the table. 

[Ahzek451]

In an attempt to come up with more ideas to deal with range, naturally one looks to the heldrake.

 

I'm still not a fan. The damage output is still mediocre, it's still an aircraft(talking missions), and in general performs ever so slightly better than where it was. And while I appreciate that it has bonuses against things that fly/aircraft, currently flyers are not a big concern. At least for me, I don't see a home for it in my lists.

 

I need to review the sisters book more, but correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they are very mobile as far as deepstrike/teleporting around the battlefield. I wonder how a coordinated strike would work. Keeping things hidden/out of line of sight. And turn 1, multiple assets move in via crystal, duplicity, and even an extra move for a terminator squad to get into key positions to absolutely lay down the hammer in the midfield, supported by the long ranged guns from various heavy support units(the famous culverins are 45", and don't forget that the forgefiend got a boost in range), clearing a path to to the juicy hq units the sisters covet.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

The Heldrake gets its bonuses against the FLY keyword, so it will happily munch jump troops of all types as well.

 

The Baleflamer wounds sisters on 2's, does 2D3 hits now rather than 1D6, and you can follow it up with 5 attacks on the charge, where it also wounds sisters on 2's.

 

The Exorcist is no longer T8, so with 5 attacks the Drake should chip off maybe 2 wounds. Depending on how many CP you want to invest, you could possibly force a fallback or bracket it if you're lucky.

 

The Drake has been a great multi-charge/tie up piece in lots of 9th ed batreps I've seen and I am eager to try it, but I concede that it may not be for everyone.

Edited August 16, 2021 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[BoomWolf]

Jump troops are hardly in the meta right now.

 

The heldrake is a counter unit to air units, who are currently not in the meta. no point countering what you are unlikely to face.

 

Sure, it can also multi-charge some stuff, but honestly, seems like an overreach to me.

[GreenPlasma]

Flamer Rubrics might have a niche in this matchup. Their offence is very good against Sacresancts, on average they should remove 14 provided a 2+ to wound in shooting phase. If they can manage to remove all 20, they’re actually trading at cost.

[BoomWolf]

Flamer rubrics seem to have a role in practially any matchup.

 

They can put a lot of pressure by simply being there. they cannot be ignored as the potential output is massive, easiily killing over half their price with every shot

They are not easily removeable as rubrics have well rounded defenses.

They feel real bad to charge at, as they basically kill a free shooting phase-doing their substantial damage again.

 

They are an ever looming threat that must be dealt with, but is difficult to do so effectivly.