9th Edition Thousand Sons Codex Game Feedback

[Prot]

I have a few ideas for my next match up as I revisit this thread.... the problem is only so much time, and limited games. 

 

I head into games 5 and 6 this week, but as usual we do this in a way that no one knows who's playing who to keep the lists honest. So with that in mind every list is supposed to be all comers, and for the most part, something I consider competitively 'fun'. 

 

The SoB are definitely not as quick as they used to be. The kind of broken idea of Seraphim coming in, shooting you up with extended melta, and then doing an action appears to be dead, so that has single handedly turned down the SoB movement meta.

 

But what they do well is spread out, and their vehicles are rare in that they are actually worth it. They ALL benefit from their 5+ denials, and all get an invuln, etc. Their flame rhinos/melta rhino's and heavy tanks are very decent, and are helped by having cheap 3+ save troops. (I still think Sacresants are crazy cheap.)

 

- On the Baledrake. I know I said somewhere in this thread that I took them a lot before this codex, and I simply used them as a turn 1 bomb to tie up as many units as I could. Arguably they are better since getting -1 to hit with supersonic, and they have a mini bombing run, and are really good against Fly. Added flexibility is always good. BUT I don't know why, every time I make a list I end up cutting it out. One day I'm going to have to force myself to use it again. 

 

- On Flamer Rubrics. I'm going to be honest, the more games I play, the less I am liking Rubrics. There are these odd games (Orks for example) where they feel really good. On a table loaded with cover, pretty darn good. But Scarab Occult can really shrink your army size, and the Rubrics lately feel like they are getting in the way of me taking more Scarab Occult.

 

I don't know, maybe I just have an unhealthy love of the Scarab Occult.. always have. But they fact they have Obsec now, I honestly feel that if we are talking list making wisdom specifically, Scarab Occult will be the one unit in 9th that may put us/keep us in any competitive discussions. I have certainly been wrong before, but that is my current feeling.

 

Rubrics have to be more than sitting on an objective now, being an unmovable force. I want to kill stuff with them, or just take a BLOB o' Cultists and give them a 4++ for the game.

 

So I used 2 Rhino's in my last game. It really had that old school effect we talked about. I always like using stuff in my armies that have a unique edge, and our Rhino's kind of fit that by simply having a 5++. Not a game changer, but what I found even with a pair of Rhino's is no one wants to shoot at them. Just like 5th edition... but now with the Helbrutes coming in hot, and maybe the Forgefiend (I am kind of fizzling on this unit), it does cause some targeting issues for the opponent.

 

With the Rhino's in play, I'm definitely considering putting some Flame Rubrics in one. Probably not a full squad to start. 

 

The only downside here is the lack of Cabal Points by doing so. I will keep them as cheap as possible I think, and give an icon to someone else to keep the CP tally a little better. (I find I just really need 8 in every turn.)

 

Just my ramblings so far.

[Xenith]

 

The only downside here is the lack of Cabal Points by doing so. I will keep them as cheap as possible I think, and give an icon to someone else to keep the CP tally a little better. (I find I just really need 8 in every turn.)

 

Just my ramblings so far.

 

I think trying to build a list around Cabal Points is a trap - go for effective stuff first, then if you have enough CaP to do cool stuff, then great, but if you're doing things like skipping rhinos to get more icons or whatever onthe board, you lose overall effectiveness. That extra cabal point is worth what, 1.5" of range on a spell, or 0.5 mortal wounds? A dual-inferno combi rhino might be a lot more effective. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Jump troops are hardly in the meta right now.

 

The heldrake is a counter unit to air units, who are currently not in the meta. no point countering what you are unlikely to face.

 

Sure, it can also multi-charge some stuff, but honestly, seems like an overreach to me.

VanVets are still used by some Marine players and some builds still use Inceptors. 

 

Fusilaves are currently seeing use by AdMech players. The bomber-spam build appears frequently as an alternative to Lucius/Mars Horde according to Goonhammer.

 

Raiders, Wave Serpents, Shining Spears, Harlequin transports and bikes, Foetid Bloat Drones, the Dreadclaws present in the current meta Emperor's Children builds, and Furies (a common toolbox unit in Daemon lists) are all appearing to some degree and all have FLY.

 

Most of the time, you're not going to get the extra damage, because only one of the above is AIRCRAFT, but the other bonuses will kick in, and the auto-hit D2 flamer, plus 5 Str 7 attacks hitting on 2's at 2 Damage can be scary to Raiders.

 

For 165 points, it's worth at least testing. Not guaranteeing it will work, but the new version has had some favorable mentions in competitive articles.

[The Yncarne]

Is ObSec for SOT sufficient in practice? I’m so concerned with them being easily outnumbered against scrub units. It’s a big draw of Cult of Scheming on paper. 
 

also, you running a combi-melta on the rhinos? My opponent Ignoring them has worked for me in the past, just not all the time. 

[Prot]

I gotta say to be frank, I completely agree with GreaterChicken here. I am seeing a ton of Admech bombers, the flame guys too... and Vanguard Vets with shield/claws are very big in top Wolves and White Scars' lists right now. Blood Angels love their golden boys too. 

 

I know darn well when Eldar get redone, there will be lots of 'fly' on the table top too.

 

My issue with the Heldrake is cost. It's decent, not must have, but costed high enough that it does cost you a sacrifice usually somewhere in the "obsec" department where I am convinced we need to concentrate on.

[Prot]

Is ObSec for SOT sufficient in practice? I’m so concerned with them being easily outnumbered against scrub units. It’s a big draw of Cult of Scheming on paper. 

 

also, you running a combi-melta on the rhinos? My opponent Ignoring them has worked for me in the past, just not all the time. 

 

Yes I run CombiMelta's. They might be something I don't use in the future, and that one shot is just not connecting very often. lol

 

But as far as SoT, I am playing 15 right now. That's a lot... bordering on too much, but I think with 15 that my current use of 2 to 3 squads of Rubrics is more than enough at 5 men a piece. 

 

This could be wrong... I am just thinking out loud here, as I play these games I find though that the Scarab Occult are a triple threat: Psyk, Close Combat(!), and shooting, and Obsec! (Wait, that's 4 things.....)

 

So compare that to rubrics. Mild shoot threat (for some reason their Soulreaper is 5 points more, which doesn't make any sense to me.), they are absolutely lethargic in every other sense. 

 

This is why one squad of mine will be playing the role of 'advance and burn' tactics. :)

[Xenith]

 

 

So compare that to rubrics. Mild shoot threat (for some reason their Soulreaper is 5 points more, which doesn't make any sense to me.), they are absolutely lethargic in every other sense. 

 

Soulreaper on rubrics replaces a single inferno bolter (2 shots) while it replaces an inferno combi on SOT's (4 shots).

[The Yncarne]

Thanks. I’ve got no games in and am a mediocre player at best, but here’s the outline of my detailed mental model for this codex:

• 1/3 points for rubrics. One squad loaded up with flamers, but otherwise MSU with the cannon. Mostly camp backfield objectives and generate cabal points
• 1/4 - 1/3 points for SOT for board control and seizing and contesting objectives
• 1/3 points for everything else, likely 1-2 rhinos, a helbrute, predator, or other engine I have and 2 HQ units

I’m leaning towards a patrol of rubrics using Cult of Duplicity and a vanguard of Scheming SOT. I think this will maximize my objective options early game for aggressive play, or pull them back if needed. I think the Scheming cult offers greater options for grabbing objectives. Cult of Time is probably better though.

 

always great to learn from the experience of others. 

[BrainFireBob]

To be clear, Prot- you are going SoT for offense?

 

What about using a loaded unit defensively, and flamer rubrics aggressively?

[Mushkilla]

Going to give this list a try against sister of battle tomorrow. 45 rubrics...
 

 
HQS
Exated Sorcerer, disk, Rehati
Relic: Prism of echoes
Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of fates
 
Exated Sorcerer, disk, warpflamepistol
Relic: Athenaean Scroll
Powers: firestorm, Baleful devolution
 
Exalted, Paradigm, disk, Kopesh, warpflamepistol
Relic: Thrydderghyre
Warlord Trait: Undying Form
Powers: Swelled by The warp, Temporal Surge
 
Terminator Sorcerer, witch warrior
Powers: Gaze of Hate, firestorm
 
Terminator Sorcerer
Powers: Doombolt, Temporal Surge
 
TROOPS
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
 
PATROL (Cult of Duplicity):
 
HQS
Ahriman, disk
Powers: Presage, Doombolt, Cacodeamonic Curse
 
TROOPS
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge
 
Points: 1996
Command Points: 8
Cabbal Points: 25

Rehati Prism Sorcerer will swap smite for a benediction (probably Flux) turn 1.
 
Probably a terrible idea. Edited August 18, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Skerr]

@mushkilla that looks like a fun list. I like the loadout and spells for the Exalted on the Relic disc.

[The Yncarne]

I know who to ask about mass warpflamer results 

[Trokair]

That’s a lot of Tempral Surge, which you can cast at most twice I think, surly some of the rubrics should go and have access to Pyric Flux for when you need the extra strength.

 

Let us know how it works out. 

[Mushkilla]

That’s a lot of Tempral Surge, which you can cast at most twice I think, surly some of the rubrics should go and have access to Pyric Flux for when you need the extra strength.

 

Let us know how it works out.

It's a bit of an experiment. You can indeed only cast it once per turn. The thing is it can be absolutely clutch and has very short range.

 

Of course you can use the Unholy Sussurus Strat to swap out to it if you need it but that costs CP and I figured Rubrics are going to be casting smite most of the time.

 

The reason I think I can get away with this set up is the Rahati Prism Exalted. He can cast 3 benedictions a turn at double range so if I swap out smite for Pyric Flux turn 1 that gives me: Pyric Flux at 24" and Glamour of Tzeentch and Weaver of fates at 36".  Which is great for being able to buff whichever rubrics need it most (without exposing the sorcerer) and against armies like sisters it means you can stay out of deny range. Giving you 3 more undeniable casts in addition to the one we get from Cabbalistic ritual.

 

It also means I don't have to remember what each rubric squad has as they are all effectively the same. 

 

Anyway that's all theory, I'll let you know how it goes in practice.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Prot]

 

 

 

So compare that to rubrics. Mild shoot threat (for some reason their Soulreaper is 5 points more, which doesn't make any sense to me.), they are absolutely lethargic in every other sense. 

 

Soulreaper on rubrics replaces a single inferno bolter (2 shots) while it replaces an inferno combi on SOT's (4 shots).

 

 

I understand, but it's on a much, much more survivable unit, and therefore combined with the points, it inherently increases the value of the Stratagem I have dubbed the AdMech Shredder! (Double shots on Soulreapers against 11 or more models).

 

In fact, I'm starting to pull Soulreapers out of my Rubrics because each one gets me 2 in a big scarab squad. 

[Prot]

Going to give this list a try against sister of battle tomorrow. 45 rubrics...

 

 

 

HQS

Exated Sorcerer, disk, Rehati

Relic: Prism of echoes

Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of fates

 

Exated Sorcerer, disk, warpflamepistol

Relic: Athenaean Scroll

Powers: firestorm, Baleful devolution

 

Exalted, Paradigm, disk, Kopesh, warpflamepistol

Relic: Thrydderghyre

Warlord Trait: Undying Form

Powers: Swelled by The warp, Temporal Surge

 

Terminator Sorcerer, witch warrior

Powers: Gaze of Hate, firestorm

 

Terminator Sorcerer

Powers: Doombolt, Temporal Surge

 

Terminator Sorcerer

Powers: Doombolt, Temporal Surge

 

TROOPS

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

 

PATROL (Cult of Duplicity):

 

HQS

Ahriman, disk

Powers: Presage, Doombolt, Cacodeamonic Curse

 

TROOPS

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, Temporal Surge

 

Points: 1996

Command Points: 8

Cabbal Points: 27

 

Rehati Prism Sorcerer will swap smite for a benediction (probably Flux) turn 1.

 

Probably a terrible idea.

 

 

I am no detective, but I get the sense you want to move those those Rubrics twice per turn. :)

 

Seriously though, it looks like it could be a devastating list in the right match up. Save those CP too for the new Vets of the longwar (Forgot the name). And that's a lot of pain for a big power armour army that is largerly T3. 

 

It looks like a fun experiment! I'm actually surprised how many Rubrics you got in the list!

[Mordas]

How are you guys getting all these games in already? I have only had the book for a few days now...

[GreenPlasma]

Flamer rubrics seem to have a role in practially any matchup.

 

They can put a lot of pressure by simply being there. they cannot be ignored as the potential output is massive, easiily killing over half their price with every shot

They are not easily removeable as rubrics have well rounded defenses.

They feel real bad to charge at, as they basically kill a free shooting phase-doing their substantial damage again.

 

They are an ever looming threat that must be dealt with, but is difficult to do so effectivly.

I didn’t put anywhere near this level of thought into it! I was simply thinking “what can clear a screen reliably?”, because as mentioned by Kouran, indirect and tanks behind a cheap infantry screen is an army archetype that presents a real problem. Flamer Rubrics were not the first thing to come to mind but everything else I diced out at just bounced off the Sacresanct 2+/4++.

 

I think this may be a sleeper unit, a lot like Spawn. Their datasheet doesn’t make it clear just how effective they can be.

[Trokair]

How are you guys getting all these games in already? I have only had the book for a few days now...

 

Combination of using reviews to gather useful information, turning up to pre arranged games in the shop, paying for the pre-ordered codex and then asking the opponent if you can have half an hour or so to hastily write a list, and a lot of looking things up on the fly.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Trokair

[Ahzek451]

In the feeling of terminators outclassing rubrics, I think maybe because in this edition, rubrics uniquely own the flamer game and are perhaps, better suited for this roll over bolters.

[Prot]

I'd agree so far with what I'm experiencing in my games. It does feel 'right' though. I'm not saying I look at the Rubrics and think of them as garbage, I mean there are other options.

 

But the Scarab Occult being the supreme push of infantry, and body guards of the Sorcerers/HQ's seems very fitting. 

 

It's easy to see a point where I may experiment with dropping vehicles entirely and massing out in the infantry: Rubrics as flamers, and as many Scarab Occult as I can fit!

 

I'm still struggling with my current list though as far as figuring out anti-tank. My last game vs. Death Guard was a single Forgefiend and a MM Helbrute. I can't be too disappointed with the Helbrute, it's fairly cheap. It got one good shot off, killing a Bloat drone, before dying.

 

The Forgefiend actually lasted the whole game, but it continues to do a little less than I want, but I keep facing armies where (If I'm honest) that the damage 2 is useless. :)

 

I look at my Contemptor model with dual Las and I just think it's not worth it, and they cost you a CP. My Soul Burner Petard Decimator is tempting, but the rewording of the Petards is weird.... to hit doesn't auto mortal wound anymore. So you get  2 D3 shots per arm, then you Mortal wound on a 2+. I think at about 180 it's just too expensive for this role and I go back to the Forgefiend.

[Ahzek451]

Running the volkite contemptor with the forgefiend in my army list demands using that relic that ignores damage, hit, and wound modifiers. Makes death guard cry.

[Trokair]

What about a Predator?

 

Which for some reason has been split in the codex into its two load outs, so I guess we can take six if we wanted.

 

4 Lascannon shots should do a lot, just hide it turn one or so. Or 2 Lascannon and a lot of Autocannon if you want a bit more of an all-rounder.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Since the Ectoplasma Cannon has a 36 in range now, a Plasma-Fiend with 3 of them could really hurt people. Max shots against any squad larger than 5 models,  and an Infernal Master standing nearby with Malefic Maelstrom can take it to Str 8 if need be. It's already packing AP-3 and 3 Damage per shot and 9 shots going into a squad....ouch.

 

Three of those all standing next to the right support characters could be real heavy hitters.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I'd agree so far with what I'm experiencing in my games. It does feel 'right' though. I'm not saying I look at the Rubrics and think of them as garbage, I mean there are other options.

 

But the Scarab Occult being the supreme push of infantry, and body guards of the Sorcerers/HQ's seems very fitting. 

 

It's easy to see a point where I may experiment with dropping vehicles entirely and massing out in the infantry: Rubrics as flamers, and as many Scarab Occult as I can fit!

 

I'm still struggling with my current list though as far as figuring out anti-tank. My last game vs. Death Guard was a single Forgefiend and a MM Helbrute. I can't be too disappointed with the Helbrute, it's fairly cheap. It got one good shot off, killing a Bloat drone, before dying.

 

The Forgefiend actually lasted the whole game, but it continues to do a little less than I want, but I keep facing armies where (If I'm honest) that the damage 2 is useless.

 

I look at my Contemptor model with dual Las and I just think it's not worth it, and they cost you a CP. My Soul Burner Petard Decimator is tempting, but the rewording of the Petards is weird.... to hit doesn't auto mortal wound anymore. So you get  2 D3 shots per arm, then you Mortal wound on a 2+. I think at about 180 it's just too expensive for this role and I go back to the Forgefiend.

To really pump up the Decimators, use Empyric Trespass (Cult of Knowledge) to reroll wounds of 1 and have them all concentrate fire on that target. Ouchie. :)