9th Edition Thousand Sons Codex Game Feedback

[Ahzek451]

Even with the new rules, I'm having a hard time finding a good use for the MVB. The mortal wound output is nice and not at the same time. Situational abilities that can be shut down if wounded enough. It's a super random MW output device. And frankly, easily removed in a focus fire. Part of me wishes it had a native 4++.

 

A GOOD thing is that it's one unit to be able to benefit from 2 d3 heals as its native d3 heal has no restrictive wording.

 

Who knows, worth trying.

[Prot]

I agree, but I did see a competitive GT game which had Thousand Sons vs. Thousand Sons and the winner had 2 Mutaliths. It was interesting actually and they did some good work.

[Ahzek451]

I'll let you guys know. I converted up 2 from the last codex and am more than happy to try. I didnt like the giant warp portal on the back and wanted to fit the tzaangor theme better so took the earp gate off and put a tzaangor rider on the back with spell books.

[Ahzek451]

Speaking of horrible monsters. Has anyone put much thought into spawn? 

For about 100 pts you get a swiss army nice of combat. 
M7" S5 T5 4W 2d3A
S:user AP-2 D2
1. -4AP
2. 3d3 attacks
3. re-roll to wounds

Now....
Fated mutation to get an extra attack. And pick your above result.
Warp surge to make them move 14".
4++ invlun from fate
Presage for a 3+ to hit. 

These guys can hit like a truck under the right conditions. 
5 models getting an average of about 35 attacks at damage 2....decent ap. Granted it requires a few things to stack up, at minimum it would be good to see surge and fate go off. But...something to think about. For a super modest points investment. 

[Prot]

I always have, and do use spawn. Every battle report, every test game... Previously I always used Fated Mutation, it's still very good. Typically I use 3-4. (I only own 4).

 

I think they are incredibly underutilized. I guess they aren't 'cool' but I rarely miss them if they get popped. If they get ignored, they cause real damage. Some of my regular opponents kill them off first because they know at the very least they will score me Engage. At their best, I'll lock down vehicles for turns at a time. 

[Ahzek451]

I always have, and do use spawn. Every battle report, every test game... Previously I always used Fated Mutation, it's still very good. Typically I use 3-4. (I only own 4).

 

I think they are incredibly underutilized. I guess they aren't 'cool' but I rarely miss them if they get popped. If they get ignored, they cause real damage. Some of my regular opponents kill them off first because they know at the very least they will score me Engage. At their best, I'll lock down vehicles for turns at a time. 

 

This is the part I am curious about most. Typically how they killing them first? Do you hide them? First turn? Do they get killed before receiving the 4++?

[Prot]

Indirect fire usually targets them first, on the first turn before I can buff them.

 

Savvy opponents go after them even if I go first and Surge/Fate them. They have a stronger chance to survive if I go first, but rarely do people flat out ignore them (Unless they've never played against them before.)

[The Yncarne]

Been looking at spawn since my Slaaneshi brother started playing ninth. I’m a model snob and don’t own any yet but found an option I hope to use whenever the painting bug strikes again. This codex needs a glass cannon and I think spawn fills that role on paper. Edited September 1, 2021 by The Blood Raven

[Xenith]

Seeing as my hellbrute and maulerfiend got nuked in my last games, I'm going to try the MSU rubric technique to give me better board coverage - I can replace the mauler and dread (~280pts?) for 2x rubric units then some spawn. 

[Mushkilla]

Played against Harlequins/Craftworlds.

 

Mission: The Scouring (from the 2021 Grand Tournament Pack)

My Secondaries: Wrath of Magnus, Strangle Hold, Warpritual

My Opponents: To The Last, Strategic Scan, Retrieve Octarius Data

Score: TS 74 H/C 57

 

My list:

 

Cult of Duplicity

HQS
Exated Sorcerer, disk, Rehati, khopesh - 155
Warlord Trait: Forbidden Lore
Relic: Prism of Echoes
Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates, Pyric Flux

Ahriman, disk - 180
Powers: Doombolt, Firestorm, Temporal Surge

Exated Sorcerer, disk, dilettante, khopesh - 165
Relic: Helm of Daemon Eye, Athenaean Scroll
Powers: Firestorm, Baleful devolution

Sorcerer - 90
Powers: Cacodaemonic Curse, Gaze of Hate

Sorcerer - 90
Powers: Temporal Manipulation, Desecration Of Worlds

TROOPS
8 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 7 warpflamer, icon - 220
Powers: Temporal Surge
8 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 7 warpflamer, icon - 220
Powers: Temporal Surge
8 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 7 warpflamer, icon - 220
Powers: Temporal Surge
8 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 7 warpflamer, icon - 220
Powers: Temporal Surge
8 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 7 warpflamer, icon - 220
Powers: Temporal Surge
8 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 7 warpflamer, icon - 220
Powers: Temporal Surge

Points: 2000
Command Points: 11
Cabbal Points: 25

 

My opponents list (roughly):

 

HARLEQUIN BATTALION

Masque Form: The Soaring Spite: Serpent's Blood

 

HQ

Shadowseer, Shards of Light, Shield From Harm, Shuriken Pistol, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, Twilight Pathways, Veil of Illusion

 

Troupe Master, Choreographer of War, Darkness' Bite, Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, The Twilight Fang

 

 

TROOPS

5 Harlequins, Embrace, Shuriken Pistol

5 Harlequins, Embrace, Shuriken Pistol

5 Harlequins, Embrace, Shuriken Pistol

 

FAST ATTACK  

5 Skyweavers, Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

5 Skyweavers, Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

 

 

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Starweaver

Starweaver

Starweaver

 

CRAFTWORLD PATROL

Custom Craftworld: Expert Crafters, Masterful Shots

 

HQ

Farseer, Guide, Doom

 

TROUPS

8 Storm Guardian

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

5 Dark Reapers, 1 Reaper Exarch, Rapid Shot

 

FLYER

Crimson Hunter Exarch, Two Starcannons, Evade

Crimson Hunter Exarch, Two Starcannons, Evade

 

This game was rough. A combination of Dark Reaper and Forewarning (unlimited range auspex) made it very hard for me to leverage Sorcerous Facade. The two Crimson Hunter Exarchs took a heavy toll with their great mobility and volume of multi damage shooting. It didn't help that I seemed incapable of rolling 4++ or 5++ invulnerable saves. The 2 damage in melee bikes were a big threat too (and a 3++ made them really tough), I should have used Sussurus to swap out a power for Twist of Fate on Ahriman but forgot. But the most challenging part was my flamers being reduced to 6 range by veil of illusion (all units within 6 of the shadowseer count as being 6 further away).

 

All that being said, 48 rubrics is a lot of obsec bodies, which meant I could keep scoring and spamming mortal wounds. If you can keep the sorcerers alive they just melt things.

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

Sorcerous Master

 

This is such a pain. It meant doom could be cast on rubrics without them being able to deny it. It means you can't put a single rubric in line of sight to cast smite and then remove him as a casualty to shield the unit from subsequent shooting. It make manoeuvring the unit much more painful. On the whole really annoying.

 

Psychic Dominion

 

Three dice deny is fantastic. Shutting down things like doom reliably is game changing.

 

Squads of Eight Rubrics

 

Coherency and blast weapons were frustrating. They evaporated just as fast as 5 man units. That being said they were great at being meat shields for characters. The extra damage output was nice.

 

Smaller squads get you more aspiring sorcerers and more cabal points. Not sure which way to go.

 

Might just run a mix? Some 5 man and some 10 man squads?

 

Single Battalion

 

Having the extra CP was great. Downside is no second cult and less characters/msu/infernal master. Still undecided.

 

Scarabs

 

I have yet to run scarabs with the new book. I'm considering running at least one squad of 5 scarabs as a way of getting more MSU into a battalion, using them mostly defensively and for chip damage. The nice thing with Flamer Rubrics and Sorcerous Facade + buffs is they become such a threat that they make shooting the rubrics screening your sorcerers much less appealing. So I might be able to keep the scarabs alive without buffing them... maybe? Or buff them to make them a lot less appealing to shoot than the flamer rubrics?

 

Aethenaean Scroll

 

Was somewhat disappointed with this. Might have been cause I was using it on Firestorm and found it mostly disappointing. I cast it on a 9+ twice and did 1MW and 2MW. I mean if you roll well it could make a big difference int the game I guess. Maybe I should be using it on a different power?

 

Helm of Deamon Eye

 

Got me 3CP during the game so quite nice considering how CP hungry we are.

 

Psychic Maelstrom

 

I'm loving this ritual. It's great that you can cast a wychfire twice. But the somewhat overlooked best part is that it allows any of your psykers to cast a power they don't know. So it's great for getting doombolt or firestorm on a rubric squad. One of my favourite combos is Psychic Maelstrom to cast doombolt, followed by Great Sorcerer (1CP) and smite with Malefic Scroll (1CP) for 6 mortal wounds from any of our rubrics or scarabs.

 

Aspiring Sorcerers

 

As my opponent pointed out you just need the sorcerer to be left standing to have insane potential damage output. In this game a lone surviving Aspiring Sorcerer on a single wound managed to snipe a wounded shadowseer with firestorm (using Psychic Maelstrom) and then take out a transport on three wounds with Great Sorcerer (1CP) and Malefic Scroll (1CP). Brutal.

 

Duplicity

 

I've worked out one of the downsides to duplicity. It's like having -7 cabal points. You're almost always going to use Pact From Beyond to autocast it. Which means you aren't using Pact From Beyond to cast an 11+ smite for example.

 

Still a great power. It's great for pulling a unit back to protect your sorcerers if their current rubric screen is looking like it's about to crumble.

 

Warp Sight

 

Doesn't work on smite or doombolt as they do not "require you to select a unit".

 

Seeker after Shadows

 

Thinking of taking this to make psychic actions more reliable and harder to deny (allowing me to save cabal points for other things).

 

Hope that's helpful.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Ahzek451]

Nice share!

The more I think about it, the more I want to run a list with 2 detachments. 1 with the cult of time supported by terminators. And the other will be duplicity with a focus on flamer rubrics. 

[The Yncarne]

Ahzek: that’s what I’ve been planning only with scheming for the scarab occult. However, this thread has a common thread of lots of command points needed and I’m not sure a second detachment is worth it. Need more games to decide.

 

Thanks goodness my group is more beer and pretzels than focused on winning every week.

[Ahzek451]

Ahzek: that’s what I’ve been planning only with scheming for the scarab occult. However, this thread has a common thread of lots of command points needed and I’m not sure a second detachment is worth it. Need more games to decide.

 

Thanks goodness my group is more beer and pretzels than focused on winning every week.

Don't remind me...*sad face* I'm hoping to help mitigate this with taking the relic to get some CP or hopefully having enough Cabal points to get one. As you said, playtesting required. 

 

Hold onto that relaxed atmosphere and never let go .

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Over on Goonhammer, their recent "Global Innovations in 9th" article talks about two high-placing TS lists, including one that seems to be a compromise between many of our ideas here:

 

3 x5 Rubes, 3x5 Scarabs, 2x5 Spawn, then 2 VolCons, Ahriman, Infernal Master with the Orrery and big daddy Daemon Prince with Undying Form and Conniving Plate that apparently wrecked face and was nearly unkillable.

 

4th place at the Adelaide GT.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-global-waaaagh/

 

The other list was a 6th place finisher from another event that had dual Vortex Beasts.

Edited September 1, 2021 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Ahzek451]

Over on Goonhammer, their recent "Global Innovations in 9th" article talks about two high-placing TS lists, including one that seems to be a compromise between many of our ideas here:

 

3 x5 Rubes, 3x5 Scarabs, 2x5 Spawn, then 2 VolCons, Ahriman, Infernal Master with the Orrery and big daddy Daemon Prince with Undying Form and Conniving Plate that apparently wrecked face and was nearly unkillable.

 

4th place at the Adelaide GT.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-global-waaaagh/

 

The other list was a 6th place finisher from another event that had dual Vortex Beasts.

I would be curious to see how the 2 MVB was used. Considering that each power can only be used once per turn, having the 4 abilities makes 1 into a swiss army knife while the other is pigeon-holed into the leftovers which may not even come up and, in essence, wasting the ability to use 1 or 2 on occasion. Unless this is taken into account in the sense that 1 beast will likely get wounded and will suffer enough wounds to dumb it down to using 1 or none while the other picks up the slack until it heals? hard to say. Wish I could have watched. 

 

On one hand, having 1 means you can guarantee to pick max effectiveness of the 4 powers in any given situation, but suffer the chance of using only 1 or none...having 2 is a backup to that but at full health...possibly wasting a chance to use abilities...hmmm.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Balthamal]

Has anyone done much in crusade games with XV Legion as yet since I've managed to get my hands on Hexfire and added to bits and pieces I previous had I may be tempted to using my previously designated Black Legion rubrics as Thousand Sons after all...

[Prot]

Nice write up Mushkilla..

 

I think I have taken Seeker After Shadows on my Infernal master every game... literally. I either just about guarantee a CP back, or a secondary Psychic action.

 

The debate on Rubrics will go on I'm afraid. It's just a small squad can die easier, but also is an extra power, yet gives up more points for Burn Witches, and more easily.

 

I'm going to try a game without Seeker because I am putting my Daemon Prince back in the game. I really like him, and him with Twisted Fate has proved to be something my opponent's characters are quite scared of. 

[Trokair]

Has anyone done much in crusade games with XV Legion as yet since I've managed to get my hands on Hexfire and added to bits and pieces I previous had I may be tempted to using my previously designated Black Legion rubrics as Thousand Sons after all...

 

I have played 8 crusade games so far (6 at 25 power, 2 at 50 power) and have now gained enough experience/requisition to play mostly 50 with some build options.

 

In the small games I have been limited to one main psyker and a squad psyker or two, so have been focusing more on what our shooting to actually do anything. As the power level goes up  I expect that I can focus more on psykers and play to our strength. That said a buffing exalted or infernal master to support rubrics, and either a hellbrute or predator (for some anit tank/monster) has been working out well.

 

In terms of crusade upgrades, they help further specialize a unit, my flamer rubrics now have fleet of foot for more maneuverability, and my SoT have 6+ feel no pain. Also spending requisition to hand out the set relics to Rubric and SoT sorcerers gives those units a little extra without costing CP in game.

 

On the flip side I have not yet been able to try any of the Legion Command upgrades.

[GreenPlasma]

Just a little sidebar on the Athenaen Scrolls + Firestorm interaction, you do need a reroll to generate an unmodified 9+ consistently. Even then, the damage on that 5+ can swing wildly. So you should plan contingencies for when you encounter a critical failure or fall flat on damage.

 

Let’s say we intend to snipe out something like a 5W character which is hiding behind other models.

 

- 5MW inflicted. Above-average result but not impossible. No follow-up required.

- 4MW inflicted. We could use Malevolent Charge but here’s another option, we smack the screening unit with Astral Blast instead.

- 3MW inflicted. We can attack the screening unit with Astral Blast twice, using 8x CAP for Psychic Maelstrom.

- 2MW inflicted. Malevolent Charge becomes our best option but it’s quite vulnerable to a low damage result. We can mitigate this with the reroll from Glimpse of Eternity.

- 1MW inflicted or none. We don’t necessarily have to break off the attack but at this point, it may not be resource-efficient. Are we better off with an alternate approach using Susurrus, is retreating out with Temporal Surge advised, or do we want to try and trade advantageously in the shooting or fight phase.

 

So we’re talking about 8-12 CAP, potentially two rerolls, and a Cult power to smooth out the odds. I think the effect is immensely strong in the right context (like sniping out a Skitarii Manipulus) but you can’t plan on anything without a minimum level of consistency.

[Xenith]

^^ Great thoughts, definitely something I want to try. I didnt really value the Cult of Magic warlord trait, but it might be key in getting off the 9+ cast for Aethenean/firestorm? Or is using athenaean and the reroll too much investment in a spell?

 

I've been comboing Athenaean with Immaterial echo to get 2 effects that trigger off the 9+ (8+) roll, getting mortals on the 5+ then a free undeniable smite or something. 

Man I love Thousand Sons, I'm so glad there are options now. I've said it before but I'm so happy to be enthused again for possibly my favourite faction, haven't been this amped up about the game in a while!

[Tichinde]

had a game last night, will get a summary up soon. 

 

has anyone considered a squad of flamer Rubrics in a Dreadclaw? (in addition to other deployment shenanigans)

[Prot]

Dreadclaw? Not really... I mean save the points and just use Duplicity... or even the relic Umbraelific Crystal or whatever it's called now.

 

The thing about the flame-bric is you can also advance the squad, then Surge them and on the 9th ed table top there is a really good chance you're in a good position. At least that's what I've been finding.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Dreadclaw? Not really... I mean save the points and just use Duplicity... or even the relic Umbraelific Crystal or whatever it's called now.

 

The thing about the flame-bric is you can also advance the squad, then Surge them and on the 9th ed table top there is a really good chance you're in a good position. At least that's what I've been finding.

True, but with the Claw, they're not on the table to get shot at if your opponent goes first. Also saves 2CP on Risen Rubricae, depending on what you're thinking of doing. Finally.....that and the Crystal as a combo could at least slightly offset choosing a single detachment other than Duplicity because you have another combo you want to exploit. Remains to be seen if any of this matters, but there it is.

[Ahzek451]

What Prot said. I plan on experimenting with surge soon. An average of 19" makes for a 31" threat range in one go. I just need to see how necessary Risen Rubricae will be needed with this kind of trick.

[Prot]

Well the thing is.... I don't know how often you guys are playing, but have you seen the mental effect of Risen Rubricae? 

 

It's really more than "Can I flame you in T1". It freaks people out. It makes them deploy differently. Heck, even if you go first, I've learned that you may actually NOT intend on following through with your own threat! Your ultimate motivation can be to simply get the opponent to deploy on a flank differently to make a hole for your other units, or force a strong flank play on the other side of the table.... or even just to force their hand on a weak squad.

 

In fairness, I have not used a Dread claw since.... 7th edition? lol So I don't even know how much they cost.

 

My issue here is points, not effectiveness of the strategy. The more I make lists, and play competitive minded games, the more I realize the codex is devolving down to Rubrics, Scarabs and HQ's. It's a bit sad, but I think that's where this is going.