9th Edition Thousand Sons Codex Game Feedback

[The Yncarne]

The more I make lists, and play competitive minded games, the more I realize the codex is devolving down to Rubrics, Scarabs and HQ's. It's a bit sad, but I think that's where this is going.

This is pretty much what I have been asking for since the codex was first released. Better daemon engine synergy would be good, but I am hopeful for the future.

 

Rubrics and Scarab Occult aren’t the most enjoyable models to paint, but it’s nice to have an effective core of unique codex units. That’s a success in my book.

[Xenith]

 

 the codex is devolving down to Rubrics, Scarabs and HQ's. I

Rubrics and Scarab Occult aren’t the most enjoyable models to paint, but it’s nice to have an effective core of unique codex units. That’s a success in my book.

 

I don't think it's a bad thing to have strong basic troops choices, and it's super fluffy, as the army is supposedly characterised by walls of Rubricae protecting sorceres who dominate the battlefield...however...I hope it doesn't become like the Tyranids codex in 8th, which was basically codex Genestealers - which were claws down the most efficient unit in the book by a mile. 

[Mushkilla]

Well the thing is.... I don't know how often you guys are playing, but have you seen the mental effect of Risen Rubricae? 

 

It's really more than "Can I flame you in T1". It freaks people out. It makes them deploy differently. Heck, even if you go first, I've learned that you may actually NOT intend on following through with your own threat! Your ultimate motivation can be to simply get the opponent to deploy on a flank differently to make a hole for your other units, or force a strong flank play on the other side of the table.... or even just to force their hand on a weak squad.

Yeah Risen Rubricae, is a really nice option. 

 

The fact that you can decide to use it part way during your deployment is really strong. I wait for them to make a mistake and then decide to use it. Normally leaving it as my last unit placed (I always tell to my opponent that it's a thing the army can do at the start of deployment). That way I only spend the CP if there's something to gain. 50% of the time I'll go second and pull the unit back with the Duplicity redeploy. 

 

You can also use it early in deployment and completely skew your opponent's set up.  

 

I find we are an army that wants to go second. Risen Rubricae gives us a play when we go first. 

 

Drop pods are less interesting as they are much more of a commitment you pay points up front. They are built into your list from the get go and force you to play a certain way (sure webway infiltration costs CP but I don't have to use it, it's an option not a commitment).

 

The more I make lists, and play competitive minded games, the more I realize the codex is devolving down to Rubrics, Scarabs and HQ's. It's a bit sad, but I think that's where this is going.

The nice thing is despite that we have so much variety. I'm still changing that cast of characters. There's so many combos. Due to the nature of cabbalistic rituals/psychic powers/stratagems we have so much scope for different ploys and tactical plays.

 

Hell I'm just using rubrics and I feel like there's enough to keep me learning/entertained for aeons.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Mushkilla

[The Yncarne]

That is a concern. I think we’ll always be considered secondary for for the units shared with codex CSM. Therefore I think the unique units are the most likely to be properly balanced or highlighted by the rules team.

 

Tyranids have other problems such as having ugly models and large model units. But that’s another thread.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Well the thing is.... I don't know how often you guys are playing, but have you seen the mental effect of Risen Rubricae? 

 

It's really more than "Can I flame you in T1". It freaks people out. It makes them deploy differently. Heck, even if you go first, I've learned that you may actually NOT intend on following through with your own threat! Your ultimate motivation can be to simply get the opponent to deploy on a flank differently to make a hole for your other units, or force a strong flank play on the other side of the table.... or even just to force their hand on a weak squad.

 

In fairness, I have not used a Dread claw since.... 7th edition? lol So I don't even know how much they cost.

 

My issue here is points, not effectiveness of the strategy. The more I make lists, and play competitive minded games, the more I realize the codex is devolving down to Rubrics, Scarabs and HQ's. It's a bit sad, but I think that's where this is going. 

Points are a concern. With the Claw, you are trading some points for 2CP and the ability to employ a strategy that depends on another cult WITHOUT using another detachment. Up to the individual player whether that is a GOOD trade.

[Prot]

Mushkilla: Absolutely bang on with Risen Rubricae. That's exactly how I play it (unless my opponent has infiltrators, then it depends). I learned this from my Ultramarines' Warsuits. It's very powerful to just have that in your opponent's head.

 

And good on you for telling your opponent that capability. I always do this as well. But like Xen, I have an opponent who started bringing a Culexus. 

 

So instead of quoting everyone that is telling me that having a strong troop/termie option is great stuff.... I'll just kind of say my piece regarding that:

 

First off, I'm as happy as anyone. So please don't misunderstand me. But I have a box full of Chaos stuff.75% of it goes to Black Legion, because I can't use it with my TS. 

 

Now the TS box has Dreads, Decimators, Rhino's, Predators, Landraiders, Spawn, Tzaangors, Enlightened, Baledrakes, Defilers, heck even a Vindicator.

 

I really don't see any of this making the final cut. Hopefully I'm wrong on a few of these... but it's not looking good for variety. 

 

I knew when I made that statement it would be a bit controversial, but I still can't help feeling like we are an army of HQ's, Rubrics/SoTs. The rest is funsy stuff! 

[Ahzek451]

Prot's observation on lists moving toward rubrics and hq's have also been a trend for some of the newer competative lists. It's a good and bad thing really. As long as we don't decimate top tables (and I don't think we will) like drukhari and admech, we wont have to fear any kind of unnecessary nerfing. Which I still beleive that admech are not done receiving nerfs for their spammable amazing cheap troop choices.

[Kobrakei]

I think Tzaangors are well worth a look, 70 points for a obsec unit with 5++ isn't the worst, and frees up Rubrics for offensive work.

[Mushkilla]

Btw I'm not running 40+ rubrics because it's what I think is most viable. I just wanted my Thousand sons to be a relatively elite infantry army. I like the idea of a cabal of sorcerers leading a small thrallband. Not to mention it's super easy to transport to and from games. 

 

We do have decent stuff outside of rubrics/scarabs:

 

I definitely want to try 30 cultists at some point. Moral isn't as bad as it was. I think I'd run a squad of 30 (only 150pts) and use Webway Infiltration to drop them down turn 2 as a meat shield. Use Athenaeane Scroll or Pact from Beyond to ensure Weaver of Fates is always up on them. That plus Glamour of Tzeentch and you have a great damage sponge. Webway Infiltration means your opponent should never get a chance to shoot them without their defences up.

 

Tzangor Shaman's are dirt cheap and practically built for psychic actions (they also generate a cabal point and benefit from cabbalistic ritual). 

 

Tzangor Enlightened are cheap (54pts) and fast. Great if you want to be able to do secondaries like engage on all fronts.

 

Spawn are really good, and have a fantastic stratagem.

 

Hellbrutes with a 5++ are solid.

 

Rhinos 5++, that's a decent transport/move blocker.

 

I also think Mutiliths have play. 

 

It's a decent book. Still some glaring oversights... but at least GW put some effort into it this time rather than the two weeks of copy paste that our 8th edition codex must have taken to make. 

[Ahzek451]

Tzaangor are def not something to be counted out. But unless your chapped for 30 pts, for about 30 pts more you get the same number of wounds(granted, D2+ weapons mean more), better weapon/BS skill, a great gun, fearless, better armor, and magic....5 man rubric squads are looking pretty mean when compared. I don't know, requires another look.

[GreenPlasma]

There were 3x10 Tzaangors fielded by the TS army that went 4-1 at the Saltier GT, which was a Cult of Time + Cult of Mutation mashup.

 

- Ahriman

- Infernal Master (Crystal)

- Winged Daemon Prince (Undying Form, Hourglass)

- MSU Rubrics, 3x Warpflamer

- 3x MSU Tzaangors

- 2x Helbrute (MM, Scourge)

- Volkite Contemptor (ML)

- 2x5 Terminators (SRC)

- 2x1 Spawn

 

- Exalted Sorcerer (Rehati, Arrogance of Aeons, Orrery, Disk, Kopesh)

- MSU Rubrics (Icon)

- Tzaangor Shaman

[Xenith]

 lists moving toward rubrics and hq's 

 

A good thing is that our HQ's can drop multiple buffs on multiple units, which keeps them relevant at least - things like Librarians which can only realistically buff a single unit are, in my view, better dropped for more of the unit youre trying to buff.

 

One thing I'm finding difficult to stomach:

 

Infernal master. For under 100pts we get a 4W unit that can give another +1S, a single reroll, etc, and perform 1 psychic power or action. For 105pts I can get a 5 man/10W Rubric unit that can perform 1 action or power, and swaps +1 S/whatever for 8x AP-2 bolter shots. 

 

At first I was psyched for the new HQ, but he seems a bit of a trap. I guess over 5 turns 3-4 rerolls is worth ~80+pts, removing overwatch might be also. 

 

I think one of the only reasons to get additional HQ's would be for additional WLT's like seeker of shadows for action reliability, but beyond that more troops might be better. 

[Ahzek451]

 

 lists moving toward rubrics and hq's 

 

A good thing is that our HQ's can drop multiple buffs on multiple units, which keeps them relevant at least - things like Librarians which can only realistically buff a single unit are, in my view, better dropped for more of the unit youre trying to buff.

 

One thing I'm finding difficult to stomach:

 

Infernal master. For under 100pts we get a 4W unit that can give another +1S, a single reroll, etc, and perform 1 psychic power or action. For 105pts I can get a 5 man/10W Rubric unit that can perform 1 action or power, and swaps +1 S/whatever for 8x AP-2 bolter shots. 

 

At first I was psyched for the new HQ, but he seems a bit of a trap. I guess over 5 turns 3-4 rerolls is worth ~80+pts, removing overwatch might be also. 

 

I think one of the only reasons to get additional HQ's would be for additional WLT's like seeker of shadows for action reliability, but beyond that more troops might be better. 

 

It would have been nicer if there was a way to attempt a second pact via strat/ability. I both love the existing strat that allows a failed roll to succeed at the cost of a wound(this is sooooo good), and to keep things in perspective, he is also still a psyker. BUT...yeah it would have been perfect to allow more than one pact to go off. 

[Trokair]

I have actually been finding the +1 Strength to ranged attack to be worth a lot. This may have to do with both running maxed sized Rubrics and SoT fairly often, so it affects more models, and a suppressing number of T5 in the local playgroup (2 to 3 Deathguard, 1 Ravenwing bike, 1 Ork, 1 gravis centric marine and 2 custodes), the extra strength either means still wounding on at least 4s, or on occasions allowing the 4 las predator to wound MM attackbike/ATV on 2s, which feels great. Also wounding the other marines on 3s is always nice.

[Mushkilla]

I think the infernal master is just as viable as our sorcerers. Problem is they take up a slot and don't come with a thrall.

 

The pacts are ok, the debuffs are really hard to pull off as they require line of sight and are cast in your command phase before moving.

 

The buffs have a similar issue where they require line of sight (unlike our other buffs).

 

That being said the re-roll is really nice (especially for a d6MW super smite).

[Xenith]

Infernal master + 10 Rubes, 9 S5 bolters = 4 wounds = 300pts

10 + 5 rubes = 12 S4 bolters = 3.85 wounds = 315pts

 

I get what you're saying, and the ability to add S to something to try and make an enemy unit more deader is great, but I think on paper more bodies = better. Especially when you factor in the second smite, and potential second SRC.

 

I have this issue with Librarians also - the rage is to take null zone chief Librarian to get rid of 4++ saves (that cancen out 50% of my wounds), however with that ~150pts it takes to get that libby, I can take double the number of say, vanguard veterans, for the same statistical number of wounds. 

 

There are positioning issues, etc, but I feel like the Infernal master may be better doing stuff that isnt achieved by just taking more of a unit - like the free reroll, shutting down overwatch, or d3 smites in the command phase (super against CTan, Ghazkull, etc.).

[Ahzek451]

Nothing like using the triple roll strat to shut down a null zone.

[BrainFireBob]

Mushkilla: Absolutely bang on with Risen Rubricae. That's exactly how I play it (unless my opponent has infiltrators, then it depends). I learned this from my Ultramarines' Warsuits. It's very powerful to just have that in your opponent's head.

 

And good on you for telling your opponent that capability. I always do this as well. But like Xen, I have an opponent who started bringing a Culexus.

 

So instead of quoting everyone that is telling me that having a strong troop/termie option is great stuff.... I'll just kind of say my piece regarding that:

 

First off, I'm as happy as anyone. So please don't misunderstand me. But I have a box full of Chaos stuff.75% of it goes to Black Legion, because I can't use it with my TS.

 

Now the TS box has Dreads, Decimators, Rhino's, Predators, Landraiders, Spawn, Tzaangors, Enlightened, Baledrakes, Defilers, heck even a Vindicator.

 

I really don't see any of this making the final cut. Hopefully I'm wrong on a few of these... but it's not looking good for variety.

 

I knew when I made that statement it would be a bit controversial, but I still can't help feeling like we are an army of HQ's, Rubrics/SoTs. The rest is funsy stuff!

For myself, a CSM army where the CSM elements are core is long overdue. Everything is perspective

[Prot]

Infernal master + 10 Rubes, 9 S5 bolters = 4 wounds = 300pts

10 + 5 rubes = 12 S4 bolters = 3.85 wounds = 315pts

 

I get what you're saying, and the ability to add S to something to try and make an enemy unit more deader is great, but I think on paper more bodies = better. Especially when you factor in the second smite, and potential second SRC.

 

I have this issue with Librarians also - the rage is to take null zone chief Librarian to get rid of 4++ saves (that cancen out 50% of my wounds), however with that ~150pts it takes to get that libby, I can take double the number of say, vanguard veterans, for the same statistical number of wounds. 

 

There are positioning issues, etc, but I feel like the Infernal master may be better doing stuff that isnt achieved by just taking more of a unit - like the free reroll, shutting down overwatch, or d3 smites in the command phase (super against CTan, Ghazkull, etc.).

some good food for thought in this thread. I appreciate the feedback we have here it is nice to challenge one’s own beliefs once in a while! It definitely has improved my lists and even playstyle. It’s so easy to get stuck in old habits. 

 

I think at the very least if it’s been planned for, the Infernal master gets you added flexibility, and command point economy. He’s also a fairly cheap way of also adding another action or psychic power to your list. 

 

that said it is very weird to me that he didn’t get two litany actions per turn. Really weird. 

 

still I think I find at 2K I really wish didn’t have to get into extra detachments to access them and the Exalted Sorc is something I think this codex markedly improved in subtle ways. I might even say that if the Infernal master didn’t exist, I’d have the Exalted Sorc and an extra Sorc on top of that. 

At this point I think the model is just really cool and I love the Litany effect. I guess whether it turns out to be the most efficient choice or not remains to be seen. 

[BrainFireBob]

That reroll and str 5 shooting

[Prot]

That reroll and str 5 shooting

In a nutshell….. heck yea. Especially with losing Gaze of Fate. 

[Ahzek451]

Has anyone tried the terminator brick yet? 10-man. All decked out and apply any synergy and spell as needed. Best candidate for 20-shot soul reaper. But above all, the possibility to return 2 models a turn. 1 from the resurrect spell. The second from the strat that says unmodified 9+. But.....what if you could use the same technique to use Cabal points to autocasting after casting a few smites. Then spend the cp to bring back a second model.

 

An absolute nightmare of an objective securing bring.

[Mushkilla]

 

still I think I find at 2K I really wish didn’t have to get into extra detachments to access them and the Exalted Sorc is something I think this codex markedly improved in subtle ways. I might even say that if the Infernal master didn’t exist, I’d have the Exalted Sorc and an extra Sorc on top of that. 

At this point I think the model is just really cool and I love the Litany effect. I guess whether it turns out to be the most efficient choice or not remains to be seen. 

 

 

Having to take an extra detachment is a problem I'm struggling with. I feel like it's pick one of the following: Risen Rubricae, Relics/Warlord traits, Extra Patrol. 

 

The extra patrol is nice, more rubric slots, opens up infernal master as a choice (I feel we need to run min 3 exalted, or 2 + Ahriman), access to a second cult. But man does 2CP do so much in this army and I'm not even using 1CP version of Unwavering Phalanx let alone the 3CP version (anyone else wish this stratagem worked in close combat?).

 

In some ways it's nice we can't do everything and we have to make hard choices. Leads to more challenging list building. I mean I've started running 2-3 of my 5 man rubrics with doombolt instead of temporal surge just to save on CP (So I don't have to swap out to doombolt). I might even consider running bolters on those squads keeping them at 105pts rather than 129pts. Although I still find the additional threat/versatility of the warpflamer hard to pass up on. Who knew a single unit could have so many decision points?

 

Has anyone tried the terminator brick yet? 10-man. All decked out and apply any synergy and spell as needed. Best candidate for 20-shot soul reaper. But above all, the possibility to return 2 models a turn. 1 from the resurrect spell. The second from the strat that says unmodified 9+. But.....what if you could use the same technique to use Cabal points to autocasting after casting a few smites. Then spend the cp to bring back a second model.

 

An absolute nightmare of an objective securing bring.

 

In theory having an extra 80pts for 1CP 7CAP a turn isn't that bad (that could be 400pts a game). But they are way to CP intensive for my taste and there's too much in the game that can kill them outright. Especially in assault. Even in shooting... once you realise you just don't have the CP for Phalanx (why isn't this 2CP?!) and they are now vulnerable to blast (eg: overcharged plasma inceptors). 

 

Whatever you do make sure they can't be shot without Weaver of Fates and Glamour of Tzeentch up (might mean some games you need to keep them in reserve). I'd argue running Ahriman with both those buffs or at least an exalted with Athenaean Scroll to make Weaver of Fates more reliable are a must.The downside here is your battle plan becomes so much more obvious, you're always going to buff the big terminator blob. Everything revolves around them.

 

The thing I like about squads of 5 Scarabs is they can hang back and do solid chip damage. I find they don't get shot when there's always a far more threatening squad of buffed flamer rubrics that's gonna give my opponent a bad time and/or who's scoring an objective. I run the Scarabs behind my characters (always screen from behind), that way they are even less of an appealing target but they still give my characters look out sir (great Forewarning target too). This means that the units in front of my characters will always be able to screen them (even when they are fewer than 3 models and regardless of being within 3"). Once you break down the character rule into it's two components, a unit that gives you look out sir, and units that are closer to your opponent than your characters it becomes much easier to keep them alive.

 

That being said I haven't actually played with large squads of Scarabs. If I applied the same theory hammer to warpflamers I never would have tried them and I'd probably be on reddit complaining about how lacklustre rubrics are. So give them a go and let us know! 

[Trokair]

I have tried a 10 man SoT unit, and it has been nasty each time. As I have only played 1000p/50pl and below so far I have had neither enough CP or sufficient casts to use or apply many of the potential buffs  so I know there is more potential in them. That said at this game size the opponent is also limited in what they can do against them so that probably evens out a bit the lack of buffs I can give.

 

It dose focus on a very direct play stile because so much of the army is tied up in one unit, and they really need to make things work. Use of cover, line of sight and most importantly distraction units (Risen Flamer Rubrics) to buy the SoT time to get stuck in. I have Temporal Surge on the squad sorcerer so that the SoT can move 10” most turns and really close the distance. Smaller table size in smaller games also help with this.

[Ahzek451]

If I was running the brick, I would also be more inclined to run the cult of scheming. The relic would help to offset the high CP demand.