Future Liber projects - Second poll: Format

[Kelborn]

Hello there,

 

as promised, here's the second poll. This time, we're curious and eager to hear your thoughts on the topic: format

 

Games Workshop (as employer), as well as Forge World, have released several different and unique types of games and books:

 

- Codices and Battletomes

- Campaign books (Gathering Storm)

- Warzones

- RPG games (and the related source material)

- White Dwarf with issue spanning Flashpoints

- and so on

 

That's why we would like to know, in what you would be the most interested in?

 

Would you like to do a large, system wide campaign including several factions like the Warzone or the old Imperial Armor (like the Badab War)?

 

Would you like to do something small scaled?

- comparable with a White Dwarf Flashpoint campaign or

- focusing on a single world and create something on Kill Team level

 

Would you like to create a new rpg-ish format?

- example: Take the Kill Team format as basement and flesh it out with teams of your own creation, which participate in a planetwide battle, going through mission after mission, engagement after bloody engagement and progress through a set order of events. Maybe there's a cooperation with the RPG community over in the Other Games subforum in hindsight, as well? Comparable with a long narrative campaign?

 

Would you rather work on something entirely different?

Maybe a sourcebook about a system of your creation? Having the focus on fluff first and foremost and then add some chapter rules and such to enable others to play within your setting and relive the tales you've spon?

 

There's plenty of possibilities and most likely did we forgot some to mention. 

 

Got some additional ideas which we should add in the poll? Don't hesitate and share them!

 

This is a community project after all! It shall be your project! ;D

 

Cheers,

Kel

 

 

We're eager to hear your thoughts! 

 

Cheers,

Kel

 

PS
This time, it's multiple choice. ;)

Edited October 4, 2021 by Kelborn

[Doctor Perils]

Would you like to do a large, system wide campaign including several factions like the Warzone or the old Imperial Armor (like the Badab War)?

Would you like to do something small scaled?

- comparable with a White Dwarf Flashpoint campaign or

- focusing on a single world and create something on Kill Team level

I think a setting that can present opportunities for a Crusade Campaign, but also Kill Teams, would be very cool - However, I think it might be a good idea to present it in the form of Flashpoint articles, to keep us all motivated by releasing stuff regularly  

 

Would you like to create a new rpg-ish format?

- example: Take the Kill Team format as basement and flesh it out with teams of your own creation, which participate in a planetwide battle, going through mission after mission, engagement after bloody engagement and progress through a set order of events. Maybe there's a cooperation with the RPG community over in the Other Games subforum in hindsight, as well? Comparable with a long narrative campaign?

 I'm not sure about creating an all new RPG rules system, but an RPG setting that can be used for Wrath and Glory and/or the old FFG systems; further, perhaps Xin Ceithan & Mazer Rackham's Imperial Knight RPG idea could be recycled here now that that's on hiatus?

 

Would you rather work on something entirely different?

Maybe a sourcebook about a system of your creation? Having the focus on fluff first and foremost and then add some chapter rules and such to enable others to play within your setting and relive the tales you've spon?

An Imperial Armour style sourcebook would be absolutely awesome, but I worry it may be too large a project to take on too soon - perhaps a ways down the road when we've been able to get a handle on this new setting?

[TechCaptain]

I am all for a RPG style with small teams going on various missions on a planetary war front. You could kind of combine it so it’s a war zone that hasn’t quite broke out to full on Chapter responses and at the moment it’s initial formations coming in assessing and setting up for a larger setting later.

[Kelborn]

Thanks for clarifying, Doc Perils!

 

That's more closely to what I intended to write. ^^"

[apologist]

Collaborative storytelling based on games is something that I enjoy a great deal; so whichever of the options has the broadest potential for encouraging interaction.

 

I’m afraid I’m not really familiar enough with the distinction between Warzone, Flashpoint and Sourcebook to cast a meaningful vote; could someone expand on what each is, please?

[Doctor Perils]

The way I see it,

• Flashpoint is a series of 3-4 articles around 20 pages long in White Dwarf, mixing new Lore, new Rules, and some (serialised short stories)
• Warzone books are the new "Book of..." format for Warhammer 40,000 narrative books, which place a greater emphasis on narrative rules/Crusade supplements plus an army of renown (a remixed armylist from a codex), which also present a lore section (1/4 of the length of the book?)
• Sourcebooks are more along the lines of Imperial Armour books, far more in depth, with perhaps half the length dedicated to a historical account of the battle, and with rules that are more complex than just missions and campaign systems, with new army lists and things like that

From my point of view, Flashpoint would be less in depth than Warzone or Sourcebooks, but by the same token would be easier to write and more accessible to newcomers. Sourcebooks on the other hand could allow for more stuff, more lore, more rules, more artwork, but I'm not sure how feasible it would be to create one as unpaid amateurs. Warzone books may be a decent compromise?

 

(disclaimer: I've voted for Flashpoint articles, as I think it'll be more conducive to us actually finishing a product, and I think it's also a slightly more free-form format; but I think all of the options are perfectly valid)

[Xin Ceithan]

apologist, on 04 Oct 2021 - 9:55 PM, said:

Collaborative storytelling based on games is something that I enjoy a great deal; so whichever of the options has the broadest potential for encouraging interaction.

This!

 

Or to put it  another way, I’d personally look at the “Project” at large and then see what / how to represent that best  in whatever  format seems the most fitting / successful.

As you have been kind enough to refer to our rather much “high concept” of a Game-of-Thrones style Knights of the Golden Throne campaign idea ( with Mazer and others doing all the heavy lifting ), I’d use that as an example, but the probably wider known Badab War works  rather excellent here.

 

These are pretty huge campaigns / settings and offer a wide scope of possible formats and projects.

 

They are also badly in need of some focus to get anywhere. 

 

With the broader topic / setting / theme established, I ‘d look into which format covers  well or covers it best with the people and ideas at hand.

 

The point of establishing a realistic goal and manage-able time frame has been mentioned and issuer to be a major factor in keeping things up and running as well as providing a sense of success along the way (yeah, look who’s talking ;) ) 

 

But IMO, we are less defined by what the Product is but what project(s) we’d like to see / make.

 

The Badab War, e.g. gone through being a short setting piece ( hardly a flashpoint) by modern articles in WD to a campaign for Killteam ( and even an event at Warhammer World IIRC ) to being a not only one,  but  two Black Books. Which still leave non Astartes forces barely mentioned but do feature scenarios for BF Gothic.  Even with this, there’d be room to revisit events in Flashpoints or do something to support building a crusade force
 

I’d like to use this also to mention that Mazer Rackham already made the valiant attempt to set an RPG during the Badab War, as it gives me the opportunity to thank him for  his efforts outside the RPG sub AND it  is likewise showing how daunting a task it is to convey things from one format ( Black Book) to another (RPG ) even when there is already a ton of source material available. 

It also makes a great way of showing that once you have an interesting setting (the Badab War) and then saying “Uh, all of the above”

 

… ;) 

 

(Probably preaching to the choir here, so ) 

 

Tl/ dr:

 

I’d argue to establish a larger / overall theme / setting / playground first and then contribute “smaller” components in some of the given “formats” to focus at certain aspects which  can in the end contribute to a larger combined collection of works as an “Anthology” of sorts or among the line of the venerable White Dwarf Companion of yore. But it is hard to chose a format without knowing what their focus would be. 

[Ace Debonair]

Hmmm. Ok.

I'm abstaining from a vote in this one, for a couple of reasons.

 

First, and perhaps most importantly, I have no actual concept of the actual scale of any of these things outside of the Kill Team Campaign, and even then I'd say I have only a rough understanding of that at best.  I probably shouldn't pick one at random, and the Kill Team Campaign option itself doesn't really appeal to me.

 

That neatly brings me to point two: I'm bypassing this vote because all of the above options sound like we're going to be writing rules, not lore. 

 

I cannot adequately express how much of a bad idea I think that is. 

We as a community have come up with some really, really cool stuff in this forum over the years, but I can't think of a single example, anywhere in the Liber, that was praised for its rules.

 

EDIT:

I'm aware I may come across as really negative here, and my genuine apologies if my view on this has offended or upset anyone.

I just think getting a Lore forum to try and write rules is like getting a dentist to build a tank - it might work but it's a bit of a gamble!

Edited October 5, 2021 by Ace Debonair

[Kelborn]

I'd like to assure you that fluff is the main point here regardless of what format will be decided upon.

 

Rules will be secondary and probably more for enabling others to replay what we're writing.

 

I agree with you that the Liber is most well known for the stories it produced. We want to keep it that way. Rules will be addition, not the main focus.

 

For example, my idea of a sourcebook would be fluff only. Like a rpg sourcebook, which dives into a new realm, which one can explore.

Transferred to 40k: systems, worlds, factions, people and so on. Like the Sabbat Worlds Crusade or the old Dark Heresy books.

 

Just my two cents to clarify things. Apologies if I haven't made it clear enough. :)

Edited October 5, 2021 by Kelborn

[Mazer Rackham]

I'm not sure about creating an all new RPG rules system, but an RPG setting that can be used for Wrath and Glory and/or the old FFG systems; further, perhaps Xin Ceithan & Mazer Rackham's Imperial Knight RPG idea could be recycled here now that that's on hiatus? 

 

I doubt anyone in the RPG Nook would mind terribly...but as Ace said above - cleave close to what the Liber is best at.  You have very experienced and formidable creative talent here, a lot of it Black Library Capable if not better, and with access to many more hands, who can keep building on it all the time, there is the opportunity to produce something special.

 

If you do want to do a sourcebook which could provide a base for an RPG, I'd be thrilled - (and you have my axe etc when I have the time) but you can leave the Rules to us boys/gals over in the Nook.  We've got some big-brains that can dig it. 

 

The point of establishing a realistic goal and manage-able time frame has been mentioned and issuer to be a major factor in keeping things up and running as well as providing a sense of success along the way (yeah, look who’s talking ) 

 

I’d like to use this also to mention that Mazer Rackham already made the valiant attempt to set an RPG during the Badab War, as it gives me the opportunity to thank him for  his efforts outside the RPG sub AND it  is likewise showing how daunting a task it is to convey things from one format ( Black Book) to another (RPG)

 

I am but a humble servant. 

 

But Xin makes a good point.  Watch for Project Bloat - and consider what is achievable, for example as a writer myself, I see a lot of projects/writers try and go all out and blitz out a novel, when what they should do is hammer down a novella.

 

Novellas/smaller projects teach great control and editing techniques and give a massive sense of accomplishment - and you can sling them out like sweets.

 

However - this forum has the depth to go into something meaty, so don't be dissuaded.  You just need the time, and the hands on deck.

 

That's it.

 

I just think getting a Lore forum to try and write rules is like getting a dentist to build a tank - it might work but it's a bit of a gamble!

 

That was tried in M32 by an offshoot of Motarion's Legion who, whilst stranded, became known as the Breath Guard.  The...'vehicle' dubbed the Plaque Crawler, was an absolute disaster.

 

They do not speak of it, and asking to "Open Wide" is frowned upon. 

 

I'd like to assure you that fluff is the main point here regardless of what format will be decided upon.

 

For example, my idea of a sourcebook would be fluff only. Like a rpg sourcebook, which dives into a new real, one can explore.

Transferred to 40k: systems, worlds, factions, people and so on.

 

Agree, see my comments above.

 

My pennies for what they're worth.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Mazer Rackham

[Ace Debonair]

I'd like to assure you that fluff is the main point here regardless of what format will be decided upon.

 

Rules will be secondary and probably more for enabling others to replay what we're writing.

 

I agree with you that the Liber is most well known for the stories it produced. We want to keep it that way. Rules will be addition, not the main focus.

 

For example, my idea of a sourcebook would be fluff only. Like a rpg sourcebook, which dives into a new realm, which one can explore.

Transferred to 40k: systems, worlds, factions, people and so on. Like the Sabbat Worlds Crusade or the old Dark Heresy books.

 

Just my two cents to clarify things. Apologies if I haven't made it clear enough.

 

It doesn't come across well in text, but consider this my official sigh of relief. 

 

I'll still leave defining the size of the project in the hands of people with more experience of the sizes being suggested, though, and let their insights decide the future.

 

 

 

I just think getting a Lore forum to try and write rules is like getting a dentist to build a tank - it might work but it's a bit of a gamble!

 

That was tried in M32 by an offshoot of Motarion's Legion who, whilst stranded, became known as the Breath Guard.  The...'vehicle' dubbed the Plaque Crawler, was an absolute disaster.

 

They do not speak of it, and asking to "Open Wide" is frowned upon. 

 

This is why we have STCs, people. Stick to the plans, and daemon engines won't start telling you to floss more often. 

[TechCaptain]

Something I can definitely say Mazer and Molotov are really good at coming up with balance rules for homebrews. Those in the nook have considerable talent in that arena but I agree with a lot above, let’s get into building the framework and the rules piece will be a tool to enable storytelling but not really needed beyond that. I like the idea of this becoming anthology like.

[Doctor Perils]

I actually really like the idea of using rules as a different form of expressing a narrative, having a kind of framework and the ability to make it interactive allows a more immersive experience when reading up on a lore creation - however this expression can be adequately reached with only missions and campaign ideas, rather than army lists.

 

On top of that, it could be another way to get new blood involved in this project, rather than a solely Liber-based one.

Something I can definitely say Mazer and Molotov are really good at coming up with balance rules for homebrews. Those in the nook have considerable talent in that arena but I agree with a lot above, let’s get into building the framework and the rules piece will be a tool to enable storytelling but not really needed beyond that. I like the idea of this becoming anthology like.

What do you mean anthology like?

[TechCaptain]

Series of short ish stories that fit within a certain theme or setting basically. We add to it as interest is there. It’s scalable.

[Sete]

Something at a kill team level seems reasonable for me.

If need be it can always be expanded later on.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Sete

[Kelborn]

Bit of a head to head race we got here.

 

Maybe I should share with you our train of thoughts to why we're doing polls and why we're doing them in this particular order.

 

Usually there are two ways of get on with such a project:

 

 

1) you already got an end goal (for example: you want to create a sub-sector) but don't have a frame to work with

 

What might happen?

 

You'd want to add more worlds, more factions, more awesome and epic battles because of "rule of cool" and "the more the better". Unfortunately, by constantly adding, you loose the overview and don't know what to do next. It gets bloated and intimidating even to look at it. In the end (and of course worst case scenario here), you'll drop it and put it to rest.

 

This happened to me several times in the last few years up to a point where I actually don't wanted to share anything in here out of fear of loosing control and letting it become bloated again. And by never finishing anything, you don't feel great either and stay away from even getting your hands on the keyboard. Of course, everyone is different but those are just some personal observations I've witnessed myself.

 

2) you have an end goal and you got a frame to work with

 

What might happen?

 

It already starts more structured. You're working towards your set goal with something in hand to reach it step by step. In following this frame, you start small and then expand upon it.

For example, if we start with a single world plus a small scalled, Kill Team based campaign (just talking about fluff for now!), then we can jump to the next world, letting it slowly grow into a system spanning campaign and so forth. Rules are certainly something, which can be added later on, when the fluff, etc. is set. Instead of trying to get everything at once, small steps is usually the better way to go.

 

This is a pattern I should've followed back than. It certainly is one I'll follow in the future. "Blessed is the mind to small for doubt." one could say.

 

 

In order to conduct this, key factors have to be settled before the brainstorming phase begins:

 

- What kind of scale do we want to start with?

- What kind of format do we want to work or perhaps begin with?

- Which factions do we want to include?

 

After clarifying, we can begin with the brainstorm phase and let creativity flow. 

 

The suggested formats are just what came into our minds when discussing this new project. 

 

Again, just a small clarification:

 

- Warzone book: comparable with GWs campaign books like Psychich Awakening, Warzone XYZ

- Flashpoint Articles: smaller campaigns within the White Dwarf, divided into smaller parts, kinda episodic

- RPG setting: creating a setting for official rpg games like Deathwatch, etc.; example: a Game of Throne inspired Imperial Knights scenario or a Monster Hunter ish Xenos centred one

- Kill Team campaign: one world, Teams of our factions, all participating in a world spanning campaign, episodic

- Sourcebook: world building, creating and fleshing out a realm (system, sub-sector, whatever) and add it to the 40K universe

 

I hope this post clarifies some open questions. Apologies that I haven't been clear enough from the beginning.

 

Do you have any further ideas? A different format perhaps? Another way to conducting the new project?

 

We're eager to hear your thoughts!

 

Cheers,

Kel

Edited October 9, 2021 by Kelborn

[Sete]

In my opinion kill team could even be part of a small system, a behind enemy lines type of thing, sabotage, assassination, search and rescue. Imagine part of an imperial crusade stuck beyond the scar, no need to be stuck in just one planet, with moons, asteroids and space stations around, then if need be expanding from kill teams to combat patrols (small skirmishes etc) Edited October 9, 2021 by Sete

[apologist]

What sort of thing are we envisaging contributions being? Models? Rules? Stories? Or is that what’s being decided here?

[Bruce Malcom]

I feel like the Kill Team campaign is something we could feasibly do. One world, teams, probably a lot of Cold War-esc atmosphere of paranoia (especially the civilian governors with squishy heads lol).

 

But the excitement I feel for all of us coming together and making a Warzone book makes me vote for it. The Flashpoints may be doable as well, and memorable; but we’d always pride ourselves on accomplishing the larger feat.

 

TL;DR we have the manpower to do longer stuff like the Warzone book, thus Warzone has my vote

[Doctor Perils]

What sort of thing are we envisaging contributions being? Models? Rules? Stories? Or is that what’s being decided here?

I think that's what we're deciding here - what kind of balance and amount of lore and rules and stories and models and artwork

[Minigiant]

In order to conduct this, key factors have to be settled before the brainstorming phase begins:

 

- What kind of scale do we want to start with?

I suggest you start with the smallest thing possible. There are only 9 or people commenting (10 including me but I am not particularly interested), which means at best 6 or so actual contributors.

[Dosjetka]

I agree with Minigiant: big projects, unless there's a core of super-motivated people with a lot of time and/or energy on their hands, are likely going to fail. Start with something (relatively) small (say, a Flashpoint article) and then build it up from there.

 

In addition to this, I'm willing to bet a number of people voted on what they would like to see and not necessarily what they're willing to commit time and energy to on a mid-to-long term basis.

[Gamiel]

Just to be clear, what would a Flashpoint article contain?

[Minigiant]

Just to be clear, what would a Flashpoint article contain?

White Dwarf features the first instalment of a new type of article series, called Flashpoints. Each Flashpoint will home in on a campaign being fought at a specific time and place, offering expansive lore and new rules that enable you to re-enact the key engagements of the conflict.

[Doctor Perils]

Ok, it seems to me this is going to be a close run race - instead of picking only one or the other, how would people feel about aiming at creating a full warzone-style book (ideally with the other game systems in mind too), but starting to release it in a serialised format: for example, every 1 or 2 months, we put out a few pages of content, which at the end of the project (perhaps between 4-6 months) amounts to the full book PDF.