SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Fedor]

I thought it was good, but not great. Just a quick list of thoughts. Tried to avoid spoiling anything specific.

Spoiler

- Some of the best little passages of writing in the series are in here. The unusually long (for BL) writing time has made for a very tightly constructed book here, something that doesn't always happen in those cases.

- I liked the focused nature of the book. There has been some criticising of this, but i'm quite happy that ADB left a lot of the larger ensemble threads for Abnett. This is very much about the Blood Angels and the last lines of defence in the palace.

- it's a worthy Blood Angels book that intelligently incorporates the forgeworld additions without letting them overwhelm things. While not nearly the transformative/extensive legion/primarch deep dive that First Heretic and Betrayer were, it's good solid stuff that gives a firm grounding to a legion we haven't seen as much as we should.

- I liked the extensive use of vignette, which is something else i've seen being divisive.  Arguably too repetitive, yet it conjures a great atmosphere of the final stages of the siege. I was never bored by them.

- Lotara's end was good, albeit seemed to have already been predicted by half the fanbase. World Eaters were hit and miss as foil for the Blood Angels; they were portrayed without the same enthusiasm as adb's older work.

- Ka'Bandha would have been better off not showing up at all.

- ADB's page count and portrayal of Angron is my biggest disappointment. A very boring depiction of his final destination as daemon primarch that did not follow up well on anything from his own earlier shorts. No interesting character work to contrast with Sanguinius, and without much gravitas or ability as a foe in their confrontation. His final scene/words are incredibly jarring and out of character. Maybe it could have worked with had that possible side of his character ever been extensively set up, but here it it simply achieves draining all menace right out of the character; trampling all over his previous convictions/outlook, as set up in large part by the very same author. It's a tiny yet pivotal moment that manages to be absolutely the wrong choice.

- The Magnus and Vulkan parts veered between unnecessary and outright bad. The standard of primarch dialogue here is like haley at his worst, with added clunky meta nonsense. A lot reads like it was constructed by using random reddit posts from threads about the usual Thousand Sons/Battle of Prospero debates. Rehashed with no finesse, while generally feeling out of character, or on the verge of being an author insert. On the last point, i get that ADB is playing with indentity here as a secondary theme, but it just doesn't work for me. P.K Dick this is not.

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Fedor

[Ubiquitous1984]

Spoiler

Was anyone else surprised we didn’t get an Eldar intervention in the Vulkan webway storyline?  With the Eldar being namechecked right at the start of the novel, and the feeling that something was ‘following’ Vulkan in the webway, plus the mask being found, led me to believe we might have seen them giving Vulkan a helping hand to stop Magnus.  

 

[Roomsky]

Re: The Webway

Spoiler

I can't in good conscience agree that it was Haley-tier primarch dialogue, though it did seem to be the part of the book ADB put the least amount of soul into. While it is a pretty on the nose refutation of "Magnus did nothing wrong," it's also something Magnus has yet to be really held to account for, intellectually. I thought it was an appropriate end to his presence. 

The absence of the Eldar didn't occur to me, but in hindsight their presence wouldn't have been out of place, especially considering how closely Eldrad's been involved in Vulkan's adventures throughout the Heresy. Double-edged sword though, part of what I love about this book is how little baggage it carries.

 

Re: Angron

Spoiler

I think this is just going to be a dividing line for folks. Angron's neck and neck with Perturabo as my favourite traitor primarch, and I had no issue with how he was handled here - if for no other reason than to give the best example of how ascension is not the boon it seems to be. That Khorne was laughing at him even as he had his brains yanked out is a pretty effective moment, IMO.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Spoiler

Does it explain why Land calls Rogal Dorn the fourth Primarch? Just saw that floating around. No way that was unintentional. 

 

[Noserenda]

21 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

  Hide contents

Does it explain why Land calls Rogal Dorn the fourth Primarch? Just saw that floating around. No way that was unintentional. 

 

He calls all the Primarchs by their numbers, essentially on principle. He perceives that the Emperor sees them that way too, as overgrown lab subjects and he hangs a lot on that. 

It does crumble a bit when Sanguinius is... well... Sanguinius a lot nearby. Nice character scene actually, for a bunch of reasons.

[Marshal Rohr]

6 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

 

  Hide contents

He calls all the Primarchs by their numbers, essentially on principle. He perceives that the Emperor sees them that way too, as overgrown lab subjects and he hangs a lot on that. 

It does crumble a bit when Sanguinius is... well... Sanguinius a lot nearby. Nice character scene actually, for a bunch of reasons.

 

Spoiler

Dorn was the seventh Primarch and the seventh found. Perturabo is the fourth. I am very concerned and didnt see an explanation on reddit or twitter. 

 

[Gongsun Zan]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Dorn was the seventh Primarch and the seventh found. Perturabo is the fourth. I am very concerned and didnt see an explanation on reddit or twitter. 

 

Spoiler

I am pretty certain it is either an editing error or Land being completely clueless about how the Primarchs are numbered.

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Spoiler

Could also be an example of Land just being confidently wrong. 

 

[DarkChaplain]

Dorn is the 7th to be found, with the order being:

1. Horus
2. Leman Russ
3. Lost Primarch #1
4. Ferrus Manus
5. Fulgrim
6. Vulkan
7. Rogal Dorn

Now, let's strike the traitors/deleted ones and we get:

1. Leman Russ
2. Ferrus Manus
3. Vulkan
4. Rogal Dorn

Considering that in revisionist history of the Imperium, the population - even high-ranking Inquisitors! - will come to believe that there were only 9 Primarchs total, with the remaining 9 being relegated to mythological devils that few understand were the same thing as the Emperor's sons they know of...

Well, I'll just see it as a way to foreshadow the Imperium's rejection of ownership, the idea of not acknowledging the Traitor Primarchs as devils of their own making, simply by striking references to them from record, like they did with the lost ones, just... more thoroughly this time, as in the end, there'll be noone around that still remembers the truth.

I wouldn't attribute the idea to Land specifically. To my mind, he'd simply be the one we see vocalizing this rejection on-page. Probably thinking himself clever for doing so, though.

[Lord_Caerolion]

45 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Dorn is the 7th to be found, with the order being:

1. Horus
2. Leman Russ
3. Lost Primarch #1
4. Ferrus Manus
5. Fulgrim
6. Vulkan
7. Rogal Dorn

Now, let's strike the traitors/deleted ones and we get:

1. Leman Russ
2. Ferrus Manus
3. Vulkan
4. Rogal Dorn

Considering that in revisionist history of the Imperium, the population - even high-ranking Inquisitors! - will come to believe that there were only 9 Primarchs total, with the remaining 9 being relegated to mythological devils that few understand were the same thing as the Emperor's sons they know of...

Well, I'll just see it as a way to foreshadow the Imperium's rejection of ownership, the idea of not acknowledging the Traitor Primarchs as devils of their own making, simply by striking references to them from record, like they did with the lost ones, just... more thoroughly this time, as in the end, there'll be noone around that still remembers the truth.

I wouldn't attribute the idea to Land specifically. To my mind, he'd simply be the one we see vocalizing this rejection on-page. Probably thinking himself clever for doing so, though.

 

 

Spoiler

Only issue with that theory is that he goes on to call Sanguinius the 9th Primarch, and Angron the 12th, which match the Legion numbers. 

 

[Ubiquitous1984]

Spoiler

The ‘4th’ statement was IMO an editorial slip up.  Later in the novel Dorn is specifically referred to as the 7th Primarch.  It was a weird slip up because ADB is a lore master, and considering how all the other siege editors/authors would have checked the book over makes it all the more surprising!  But it’s just a minor error and nothing to loose sleep over.   

[grailkeeper]

One small gripe.

 

Spoiler

I'd have liked to have seen Raguel the Sufferer from the Night Lords books mentioned. Even just a throw away line. "Raguel has gone to engage the Night Lords".

Not a major gripe though.

 

[Roomsky]

The promised follow-up:

Siege of Terra book 7 of 8 - Aaron-Dembski Bowden

 

Alright, my gushing is out of the way. TL:DR it's a great book, go read it. However,

Point the first: We don't see the following people in this book:

• Oll's crew
• Katsuhiro
• Keeler's army
• Loken
• Valdor and Fo

And while I'm personally thankful they aren't in this one, these items have been forming a throughline since Saturnine or earlier into the finale. They are arguably the "main plot" running through this Siege series, bouncing off of and in between the big setpieces and old codex fluff - and the second to last entry into the series addresses none of them. No wonder The End and the Death's been split into 2 parts, Abnett has a lot of catching up to do before he can start paying things off. And if part 1 of that book is flaccid setup, it's because nothing happened here.

 

Point the second: Tell me if this synopsis is familiar.

Spoiler

This book builds up to a loyalist and a traitor primarch meeting in single combat, the traitor being banished to the warp at the end of the bout. Meanwhile, a World Eater wielding Gorechild fights his once chain-brother from another legion, who dispatches the world eater because he's suppressed the bloodlust the World Eater has surrendered to. In between all of this we get brief glimpses at the little people throughout the Siege to give appropriate scale to the conflict.

Sounds like Warhawk, non? Well, it also describes this book, which wouldn’t be an issue if they weren't right beside each other. And honestly, I like this book a lot better than Warhawk, ADB somehow even managed to make Amit vs Kargos, which sounds like discount Khârn v Sigismund, just as if not more impactful. Bravo, well done, exceptional. But that doesn't change the fact that the sequel to Warhawk was Warhawk again.

 

Point the Third: The change-up that wasn't.

Spoiler

ADB says in the afterward that this book would be a change of pace from the previous ones, that it would go nose to the ground and focus on a few disparate elements for scale. The focus would be on the desperate atmosphere, the little people amidst big events, and would shy away from big characters like Horus. Ehm, guys, I'm not sure if you've read the other Siege books, but that describes almost all of them.

Horus is barely in this book, and it's still the most we've seen of him in ages. I adore the civilian and conscript POVs, but when they're such a big focus in every book, and usually not even the same ones, what would be good in a vacuum becomes tiresome, even moreso when every book is trying to be as grand-scale and apocalyptic as possible. If ever an authorial quote perfectly encapsulated the editorial breakdown of this series, that be it.

 

Point the Fourth: Desperation in name only

Spoiler

Okay, that's probably a little unfair. I mean, in terms of the battle map the defenders are now holed up in a single building. The loyalists are definitely losing, but I don’t think it would have killed the writers to have a daemon primarch other than Fulgrim leave of his own accord. In the most cataclysmic event in Imperial history, Mortarion, Angron, and Magnus have now all been banished in a 1v1 with their loyalist cousins. It didn't need to be this way either, Magnus could have had a complex spell setup that Vulkan smashed instead of his face. Angron could have been dragged down by Keeler's mob, or eventually worn into nothingness following Horus' death. Hell, Horus dying could even be what forces the retreat, with so much of the Gods' influence fleeing the system.

And it's not just the primarchs. The victory in Saturnine was supposed to be the last big loyalist win before things got even worse, and that was true for Mortis (even though Corswain retook the Astronomican) but isn't terribly apparent in Warhawk, where Khârn is killed and the Lion's Gate spaceport retaken (and as shown in this book, held.) At times it seems less like the loyalists are going above and beyond to hold out and more like Horus' effectiveness is in weight of numbers alone.

 

In summary: this book kind of drops the ball as part of the Siege series, not that the Siege series functions as a series to begin with.

I should clarify I pin none of this on ADB, if I did, it would have affected my score of the book on its own. This is an issue split evenly between all the authors at the table and Kyme. Reading any one Siege book you'd probably say "hey! That was pretty good. Can't wait to read the rest," but when you actually do the whole thing back to back it's repetitive and confused.

This wasn't as much an issue in the Heresy series because those novels were largely standalone, reintroducing shared characters when they appeared. Warhawk expected you to know who Oll and co. were, and doesn't work as White Scars book 3. Echoes stands and falls by being quite literally another Heresy book. I don’t think I'd ever suggest someone binge the Siege, but if I did, I'd be tempted to suggest they read Echoes in an ADB-athon instead and divorce it from the rest.

Actually, on that note, if I was sharing these series with people my reading guides would be more like:

• ADB's Heresy Work -> Echoes of Eternity
• McNeill's Heresy Work -> Sons of the Selenar, Fury of Mongoose
• Read Solar War as book 55 of the Heresy, NOT book one of the Siege
• Then read Saturnine, Mortis, Warhawk, and The End and the Death back to back as your big fun Horus Heresy payoff event

And that dear Fraters, is very messy. Just like this post!

[Scribe]

19 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Point the first: We don't see the following people in this book:

• Oll's crew
• Katsuhiro
• Keeler's army
• Loken
• Valdor and Fo

I'm more than OK with this.

[lightinfa]

20 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Point the second: Tell me if this synopsis is familiar.

  Hide contents

This book builds up to a loyalist and a traitor primarch meeting in single combat, the traitor being banished to the warp at the end of the bout. Meanwhile, a World Eater wielding Gorechild fights his once chain-brother from another legion, who dispatches the world eater because he's suppressed the bloodlust the World Eater has surrendered to. In between all of this we get brief glimpses at the little people throughout the Siege to give appropriate scale to the conflict.

Sounds like Warhawk, non? Well, it also describes this book, which wouldn’t be an issue if they weren't right beside each other. And honestly, I like this book a lot better than Warhawk, ADB somehow even managed to make Amit vs Kargos, which sounds like discount Khârn v Sigismund, just as if not more impactful. Bravo, well done, exceptional. But that doesn't change the fact that the sequel to Warhawk was Warhawk again.

 

 

Spoiler

What's even funnier is both primarchs defeat their opponents in the same way! By deliberately allowing themselves to get stabbed so they can get in close for the decisive blow.

Edited September 1, 2022 by lightinfa

[Scribe]

I am less ok with Angron, but I guess as ADB noted, he was put in a bad spot by a questionable book from earlier.

[Fedor]

The daemon primarchs have definitely not fared too well over the siege.

I don't like a lot of the choices ADB made with Angron or Magnus in this book, but reading some of the responses elsewhere, it makes you realise the tough job the writers have with these big name character showdowns. A perceived wrong choice or two and suddenly you're intentionally sabotaging an entire faction in the eyes of many.

ADB was a biased Chaos fanboy for years in the views of a certain contingent...now he's a loyalist shill. Far too many in this fanbase can't seem to just criticise the writing on its own merits, or take it in good faith.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Fedor

[Knockagh]

Never in my wildest imagining’s  did I think I would hear a a BL book called Homeric. But I suppose I knew of one was to be called that, it would be written by Aaron.

As a fan of the deeper story in the siege and one who got massively bored with the space marine focus for the last 20 books of the heresy I’m a little disappointed to hear this book has ignored the other storyline. But if anyone can write an enjoyable marine focused novel it’s Aaron so I’m sure it will be ace.

[Roomsky]

2 hours ago, Knockagh said:

Never in my wildest imagining’s  did I think I would hear a a BL book called Homeric. But I suppose I knew of one was to be called that, it would be written by Aaron.

As a fan of the deeper story in the siege and one who got massively bored with the space marine focus for the last 20 books of the heresy I’m a little disappointed to hear this book has ignored the other storyline. But if anyone can write an enjoyable marine focused novel it’s Aaron so I’m sure it will be ace.

I am admittedly a pretty biased ADB fan - but the writing is shockingly beautiful for a Sci-Fi. And the whole time reading I was left thinking "wow, this is ADB's Iliad, right down to a few structural devices." It's really quite something.

-

Anyway, some sundry thoughts re: Angron:

Spoiler

This book is probably going to be the big divider between the fans who read Black Library to see their dudes kick ass and the fans who read Black Library to see decent stories being told with a 40k coat of paint. I've heard things like "character assassination" being thrown around for Angron and the World Eaters here, but all I read is that they've degenerated as you'd expect them to (and as they should be doing.) The point is that they've fallen so far, same with Angron. The book is not about how the World Eaters are really badass, it's about how their entire legion is coming apart at the seams. Angron and Sanguinius having a protracted back and forth with lots of anime dialogue about each other's morality would not be tonally appropriate. 

Full disclaimer though: I like melodramatic misery porn and I've never understood people who get annoyed that their favourite faction didn't win. Hell, it isn't even that anticlimactic! It's a lengthy fight and the comments about Angron's last moments being pathetic begging omit that it was a single word: "No." He wasn't groveling that Sangy not kill him, it was a panicked reaction to the fact that he was going to get brained within the next couple seconds.

In fairness to detractors of this fight though: the rest of the Siege so far did tease it repeatedly. That all should have been limited to this book if it was going to be as brutal and one-sided as it was.

On a lighter note: ADB now has the unique distinction of killing the same primarch twice.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Re: the angron disgruntlement 

Spoiler

Now I'm still waiting for the book, so I'm definitely missing context on the scene.

But hasn't daemon angron been handled before? Like by perturabo, after only denying bloodshed for like...minutes? Arguably the violence on terra should boost angrons power level, but the planet he was fought on during slaves to darkness was riven of life and had a lot of offerings to khorne. It also had no anti daemon psychic barrier remnants and angron was presumably more fresh (if that matters for a daemon primarch). Perturabo has also never been put in the realm of sanguinius in terms of combat ability, and he was missing part of his soul/life force from the whole fulgrim thing.

Again, I've yet to read the book. But maybe angron has been shown to be rather defeatable in the past

 

[Scribe]

Eh, as a self confessed WE/Khorne/Angron fan for over 20 years now, I have no issues with what I'm reading here.

My issue was with Fear to Tread ruining the Sanguinius arc for over a decade, and now ADB has to come in and clean up after another author, again.

[Matcap86]

What a book, wow, just finished it, middle of the night here, loved it. More coherent thoughts incoming.

 

@Roomsky

Spoiler

On Angrons "begging". People talking about it being out of character don't seem to get it. He doesn't fear dying, he fears losing the nails, i.e. the thing that gives him his identity, (or prevents him from seeing his actual identity as show in the sliver of clarity as they start to come loose).

Fans treating their factions as sports teams and getting upset when they lose in novels are being silly. Partly because Angron spent the better part of Saturnine being an invulnerable behemoth winning all book long.

 

[Scribe]

Spoiler

Now, I dont have the book, but losing the Nails would be in my mind, Angron not losing his 'identity' but losing his peace, his peace, his freedom.

That is what Khorne is for Angron, and the Nail's as the gateway, a way to drown out his tortured psyche and obliterate the ego. He's been trying to die for a long time, that was taken from him, all there is left, is the obliteration of the self in a tide of bloodshed.

At least, thats my head canon, and nobody will change that.

 

[Kelborn]

As far as I can tell, without reading the book, is that Aaron started Angrons and the WEs journey in Betrayer by giving them the needed attention and love and now he's closing that chapter by displaying their downfall.

 

Nothing wrong for me here.

We got some of the tip top fighters of the Primarchs on the loyalists side here so I'm fine that the corrupted ones get smacked. Chaos doesn't make you invincible, it's called corruption for a reason. It changes you and give a you additional powers, true, but it itself makes you weaker for what you have to give up.

[Wisesamwise]

Turns out I had my old account so long that I couldn’t remember which email I used to sign up… so new account! 
 

Seriously looking forward to getting the Audible version of this to listen in the car.
 

Sadly this is the first LE version that I didn’t get. Devastated is an understatement. Not sure I can afford to grab one from the scalpers on eBay, so now comes the choice of selling the rest of the set or not.. :-(