SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Allart01]

The loyalist fleet has its shoulders against the ropes, at the edge of the Solar System. I don't think they can get much through the traitor blockade (both physical and metaphysical) surrounding Terra. The last time they did, they had to sacrifice the Imperator Somnium to get Corswain and his Dark Angels on the surface, and I can easily accept that communication is just as difficult.

[Noserenda]

regards the fleet

They probably cant tell whether something has gotten through or not, they know anything coming from the surface is very certainly going to be blocked or jammed though. If they get Guillimans message it makes more sense to link up with him as a unified and resupplied front rather than some risky gambit against the traitor main force, which they probably dont imagine the state of at this point.

[Ubiquitous1984]

Spoiler

Correct me if I’m wrong but Terra is surrounded by a warp storm, and tactical communication was impacted throughout the book IIRC?  It’s highly possible that communication with Terra simply isn’t possible right now.  

 

[The Imperial Fist]

3 hours ago, Noserenda said:

regards the fleet

  Hide contents

 

They probably cant tell whether something has gotten through or not, they know anything coming from the surface is very certainly going to be blocked or jammed though. If they get Guillimans message it makes more sense to link up with him as a unified and resupplied front rather than some risky gambit against the traitor main force, which they probably dont imagine the state of at this point.
 

 

I dunno, I imagine they would suspect comms were being blocked, and on learning that Guilliman, The Lion and Russ were all so close, would likely do anything to make sure that message was delivered, no matter how suicidal it would be. Prefer my own thought that they are simply on the wrong side of the system and haven't received the message...

[Sanctimonius]

I was supposed to be studying, not racing through this...

 

Probably my favourite book of the Siege so far. I'm a huge fan of ABD's style anyways, and he leaned into it here. I really enjoyed the way he conveyed a very localised view of the defenders, and the exhaustion and resolve that was carrying them through even in the face of truly horrific scenes. We've had bits of this before but I think ADB nailed it better than other authors have. He does have a thing for tearing out eyes though...

 

Spoiler

I particularly enjoyed the series of vignettes sprinkled throughout of characters being snuffed out. Each of these combatants has a past, each of them their own reasons for remaining loyal or declaring for Horus, and many of them would face utterly ignoble and sudden deaths. This is a brutal point of the Siege and a brutal book reflecting that. I really liked the peek at the Revenant Legion, I loved the description of how Sanguinius and Big E spoke on Baalfora (having those psychic tastes of added meaning along with the words, does Sanguinius pick these up because of his own abilities?).

 

The structure was a little jumpy though, and I'm not sure it adds anything to have the gladiator flashback where it is - I think it was to maintain the mini-twist that someone was alive, but it still feels like it should have been later in the book. That being said leaving Sanguinius unseen for so long in the book was an excellent choice, building up that tension and anticipation so you truly appreciate just how integral he will be in this moment. As for the scenes we knew were coming, I really enjoyed them. Ka'bandha felt a little jammed in, but reading his personal notes at the end I get why. Angron was as brutal as I expected, and a truly terrifying force of nature by this point. Very interesting about how the flesh change exploded, and the WE just went berserk on everyone - this explains why a single legion will completely turn things when they arrive, RG just needs to contend with the remnants of the traitors at this point, with the IW picking up their ball and buggering off, EC still enjoying the universe's best party or gone, DG decimated, WE and TS decimated, AL apparently forgotten, and NL, SoH and WB severely bloodied by this point.

 

Vulkan in the Webway was very interesting, having that conversation was a direct wink at the memes of Magnus doing nothing wrong. Which of course he will always feel that way, but also he kind of isn't wrong, but in another way he is utterly wrong. And he has a point, Vulkan is absolutely serving an Imperium that represents tyranny and brutality, but of course having seen the outcome of the other choice he knows it can be no other way...

 

Some surprisingly touching moments as well. Arkhan artificimian (seriously, how good is this pun?), best girl Tee, the moment when Zephon's menials pledge to do their best to defend him. Sarrin realising just what she has become, Khârn speaking just that once throughout the whole book to try and protect her. I fully expect Abnett to nail the dismount but he has a big act to follow in this.

 

And ADB, if you're still lurking the forums, thank you.

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sanctimonius

[godking]

Finished it yesterday.

Best book of the series Sanguinus is truly the MVP and his speech was inspiring and refreshing

I like the little tidbits and details that ADB put into this novel like the Talk between Land and Zephon about knowing no fear.

Land was absolutely right in his viewpoint regarding Astartes regardless of how powerful and useful they are. 

[TheRealMcCagh]

I had a little laugh when Kargos is about to enter the fighting pits and says 'Blood for the Emperor,’ Kargos murmured. ‘Skulls for the Terran Throne.’ A little bit hamfisted, but still got a chuckle

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by TheRealMcCagh

[Moonreaper666]

On 9/2/2022 at 10:09 AM, Odd-ad said:

I think the reason ADB has been accused of being a Chaos fanboy is just how good he is as an author, coupled with his desire to make the factions he writes for feel like they really, truly, fully believe their own lies. 

So when he writes for Chaos in the HH and delivers some of the most interesting books for the characters involved, people assume it must be favouritism, completely forgetting concepts like the unreliable narrator, or the fact that he writes the loyalists just as well (looking at you Helsreach & Spears). 

Then a book like this comes along, and he writes a more pro-loyalist perspective and some fans act like they lost their minds.

I remember after Betrayer, when some fans acted like Angron was completely in the right in his argument with Guilliman, and said the latter had no response. Then you re-read it and see Guilliman made a perfectly valid point about Angron being stuck in the past and refusing to change or attempt to improve because being bitter about the bad things that happen to you is easier than doing something about it.

Obviously, I'll have to wait until I read my copy tomorrow, but I imagine that will be the sort of thing ADB will have done here: Angron accepted Khorne because it's the easy way out, rather than struggle to be better like Sanguinius. 

Spoiler

I remember Sanguinius willing to become corrupted at Signus. Meiros had to sacrifice himself tp convince his Primarch not to give up hope

Without Meiros' sacrifice both Sanginius and the Blood Angels would have falling to Chaos

Surprised that neither Raldoron or Azkaerllon appear or are mentioned

Glad that Sanginius was forced to abandoned holding the Gate because he would die if he did so

 

I still believe Terra should have Tens of Trillions of Loyal Imperial Army troops and several times that number of Conscripts

That would make orbital bombardment, Daemons, Warp Madness and Empowered Traitor Astartes much more horrifying as they easily kill, mutilate and torture Trillions!

Spoiler

Three things I've noticed in Magnus vs Vulkan

-Since Magnus has perma-killed a Perpetual before the Emperor has to revive Vulkan everytime in their fight

-The Emperor not only runs interference in the fight but possesses Vulkan

-Vulkan is no longer a Perpetual!

Spoiler

I don't think Horus turned off the VS' shields this time around. Something happened

Interesting that Khârn isn't berserk, perhaps due to still being in recovery as well as being close to one of the very few people who he cares about. I believe he was real in Sarrin's arc.

Khârn truly loved three people as his family. Angron, Argel Tal and Sarrin. We see the sadness in Khârn in this book as he sees just how different Lotara has become

I believe that this is the last novel to feature Khârn before his madness. Next and future novels will show his 40k madness (and power boost)

Spoiler

I think every Legion has mass-produced Marines and sent a lot of them to Terra. Feels like the Blood Angels alone have already lost over 90% and much more than 150k Marines.

Though the Traitor Legions with the exception of the WB, NL and AL have committed much more Marines

I always believed 'elite' troops like Marines and Ork Nobs die in droves just like normal cannon fodder. This book makes you feel that and it shows that effect on Loyalist Guardsmen

I'm glad that the Daemons have bypassed the Eternity Gate. Chaos is still threatening to kill the Enthroned Emperor.

It's still going to take days or weeks for Guilliman and other reinforcements to beat the Traitor fleets. Plenty of time for Daemons to retake the Astronomican, Lion Gate Spaceport, kill Sanginius and destroy the Golden Throne (which will destroy Terra and negatively scar the other planets giving Chaos total victory)

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Moonreaper666

[Moonreaper666]

Spoiler

Feels like the Blood Angels had at least 200k Marines while the World Eaters had 400k. Typhus probably still has more Marines than there are White Scars, Dark Angels on Terrra, Blackshields and Imperial Fists still alive

Even if the Traitors fail to breach Eternity Gate the Daemons are out in full force. Horus still has time on his side. It is more likely the Daemons get to the Throne than Guilliman getting to the Vengeful Spirit

Surprised that Belakor and Doombreed don’t get a mention

Sanginius finally deciding to stay inside and close the gate is symbolic of the post-Heresy. Sacrificing countless Imperials and planets to save a ‘lucky’ few. Only for those few to be thrown into one of innumerable meat grinders down the road

With Garro and Keeler having to deal with a vengeful Mortarion it is up to Sigismund and Fafnir Rahn to deal with Typhus

Ahriman is still at play here so the Imperial Fistd Librarians have to delay him

Legio Mortis is still in play. Dis Irae alone could breach Eternity Gate.

Nice very short cameo of Ordo Sinister

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead
wish listing

[Sanctimonius]

13 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

  Hide contents

I remember Sanguinius willing to become corrupted at Signus. Meiros had to sacrifice himself tp convince his Primarch not to give up hope

Without Meiros' sacrifice both Sanginius and the Blood Angels would have falling to Chaos

Surprised that neither Raldoron or Azkaerllon appear or are mentioned

Glad that Sanginius was forced to abandoned holding the Gate because he would die if he did so

 

I still believe Terra should have Tens of Trillions of Loyal Imperial Army troops and several times that number of Conscripts

That would make orbital bombardment, Daemons, Warp Madness and Empowered Traitor Astartes much more horrifying as they easily kill, mutilate and torture Trillions!

  Hide contents

Three things I've noticed in Magnus vs Vulkan

-Since Magnus has perma-killed a Perpetual before the Emperor has to revive Vulkan everytime in their fight

-The Emperor not only runs interference in the fight but possesses Vulkan

-Vulkan is no longer a Perpetual!

  Hide contents

I don't think Horus turned off the VS' shields this time around. Something happened

Interesting that Khârn isn't berserk, perhaps due to still being in recovery as well as being close to one of the very few people who he cares about. I believe he was real in Sarrin's arc.

Khârn truly loved three people as his family. Angron, Argel Tal and Sarrin. We see the sadness in Khârn in this book as he sees just how different Lotara has become

I believe that this is the last novel to feature Khârn before his madness. Next and future novels will show his 40k madness (and power boost)

  Hide contents

I think every Legion has mass-produced Marines and sent a lot of them to Terra. Feels like the Blood Angels alone have already lost over 90% and much more than 150k Marines.

Though the Traitor Legions with the exception of the WB, NL and AL have committed much more Marines

I always believed 'elite' troops like Marines and Ork Nobs die in droves just like normal cannon fodder. This book makes you feel that and it shows that effect on Loyalist Guardsmen

I'm glad that the Daemons have bypassed the Eternity Gate. Chaos is still threatening to kill the Enthroned Emperor.

It's still going to take days or weeks for Guilliman and other reinforcements to beat the Traitor fleets. Plenty of time for Daemons to retake the Astronomican, Lion Gate Spaceport, kill Sanginius and destroy the Golden Throne (which will destroy Terra and negatively scar the other planets giving Chaos total victory)

 

Spoiler

I'm curious too about the lack of any of the Sanguinary Guard - I wonder if they're doing something else. Leading an assault on the Vengeful Spirit, or working towards that, maybe? It's a glaring omission that will surely be addressed in the last book at least.

 

Are we sure Vulkan is no longer a perpetual? I think that might be jumping the gun to assume it, right? Same with Khârn, it's not confirmed that's really him - he could easily be a wraith like Sarrin was, while his body is busy becoming the Betrayer. I'm more curious about how he gets Gorechild back.

 

Not sure i understand your last bit, chaos isn't going to destroy the Golden Throne, and the Lion Spaceport isn't going to be retaken from my boy Shiban, nor will they retake the Astronomicon.

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

17 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I still believe Terra should have Tens of Trillions of Loyal Imperial Army troops and several times that number of Conscripts

That would make orbital bombardment, Daemons, Warp Madness and Empowered Traitor Astartes much more horrifying as they easily kill, mutilate and torture Trillions!

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Spoiler

How does killing trillions make it noticably more horrifying? As the saying goes, one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. 
 

Changing from billions of conscripted troops to trillions does nothing but change a b into a tr. 

 

Also, why are you “surprised” that Be’lakor and Doombreed don’t show up? They’ve never been stated to be involved here, and AD-B doesn’t go around making arbitrary changes. There was never any indication that they WOULD show up, other than your obsession with Doombreed as some sort of Chaos superweapon who should appear in every story to kill millions/billions/countless Loyalists.

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Lord_Caerolion

[Moonreaper666]

Spoiler

Maybe ADB could have build up a little bit on Doombreed and Belakor since both were in the Vengeful Spirit during the duel

 

[Moonreaper666]

2 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

I finished Echoes of Eternity earlier today, and was very satisfied with ADBs contribution to the SoT series. I was engrossed the whole time, and it was one of the easiest reads I’ve had in a long time. There were several points reading on my kindle where I noticed I had blown through 6-10% of the length of the book without realizing it. If that’s not a sign of a successful book, I don’t know what is. I won’t say it was perfect, but I get most of the decisions Aaron made when writing it, and nothing in here detracted from my enjoyment at all. If anything, it only made me dislike Mortis even more and wish ADB had gotten to write about that part of the siege lol. 
 

Some rapid fire thoughts and questions for consideration. 
 

  Hide contents

I wonder why Corswain got an entry in the dramatis personae; seeing him there got me excited and realizing he only had the one exchange with Sanguinius left me honestly disappointed. Again, I understand why so it’s not a big deal.

 

I also don’t get the “fourth Primarch” line by Land. It really doesn’t seem like an error or oversight, as not only does he correctly name Sanguinius and Angron, the person he’s speaking to notices something wrong with that term as well. It could be just incredulity over the disrespectful nature of the statement, but it also seemed like there was a reason he called Dorn the fourth. I dunno, it just stood out to me and never got addressed.

I legitimately got excited when the Spirits shields were noted to be dropped. Pure 20+ year fanboy moment and I’m not ashamed of it at all. 

Loved Guillimans message. loved mention of the Lion and Russ coming as well.

Acid licking an eyeball - dude, ADB, you good brah? Lmao

Why wouldn’t Magnus have unmade Vulken after the first dozen kill attempts? Sloppy, but ok, move the story and players along. I get it.

 

I could go on, but I need to better organize my thoughts with this. Excellent book. Satisfying read. Bring on Dan’s opus. 

Spoiler

ADB is building up Corswain's role for Dan's novel. Should he fail then Guilliman will be delayed for several more weeks at least!

Emperor was imbuing his mind and power into Vulkan during his duel against Magnus

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

4 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Maybe ADB could have build up a little bit on Doombreed and Belakor since both were in the Vengeful Spirit during the duel

 

Spoiler

Yes, but there was no indication that AD-B was going to do so, so their not being in this novel isn’t surprising. 
We’ve already got Angron and Kha’bandha playing a main role in this story, adding another powerful Khornate daemon would just be crowding the arguably already too much amount of “Blood Angels fight big Khorne guy”.

As for Be’lakor, there’s already enough names involved, we don’t need to start adding in more Chaos named characters just so you can have your arbitrary death toll increase.

 

On another note, for the shields dropping, I’d love to have it that Loken/Garro infiltrate their way onto the Vengeful Spirit to do so, thinking they’re winning some victory, only for Horus to show that he was going to do so anyway and annihilate both of them.

 

[Moonreaper666]

8 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

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Yes, but there was no indication that AD-B was going to do so, so their not being in this novel isn’t surprising. 
We’ve already got Angron and Kha’bandha playing a main role in this story, adding another powerful Khornate daemon would just be crowding the arguably already too much amount of “Blood Angels fight big Khorne guy”.

As for Be’lakor, there’s already enough names involved, we don’t need to start adding in more Chaos named characters just so you can have your arbitrary death toll increase.

 

On another note, for the shields dropping, I’d love to have it that Loken/Garro infiltrate their way onto the Vengeful Spirit to do so, thinking they’re winning some victory, only for Horus to show that he was going to do so anyway and annihilate both of them.

 

Spoiler

Unless I heard wrong there is going to be a novella in which Keeler and Garro are attacked by Mortarion!

Loken is going to witness Horus mortally wound the Emperor. (History doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes). Loken tells a wounded Dorn to carry the Emperor away. He and others will buy time as Daemons and Traitors converge on their location.

Loken's fate is to fight Abaddon for a second and final time. Chaos Gods give Abaddon a little taste of their powers, allowing him to kill Loken. This is another reason why he self-exiles himself until the Black Legion novels.

(Loken is the first Grey Knight and GK Captain to die by the new Warmaster's hand)

Horus doesn't need to turn off the void shields. Daemons just need to either take back the Astronomicon or reach the throne before Guilliman makes it to the Vengeful Spirit. Shalaxi Helbane alone can do both in six hours.

The combined Traitor fleets, Warp Anomalies and Space Daemons can hold Guilliman off for several days or weeks!!!

 

[Morovir]

I'm confused by ADB's thought process behind the progression of Kargos:

 

Spoiler

Introduce a character based off a reference to a 40k character from 2e

Build him up

Kill him off before he can ever make it to the point that he was inspired by in the first place, despite the fact that by this point he has been confirmed to survive the heresy since 2015.

 

Just seems slightly counter-intuitive.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Morovir

[Knockagh]

Awesome book so far. If I had time this would disappear quickly. Only in chapter 6 so far.
Roomsky called it Homeric and I know why now. It’s beautifully written. It’s so long since I’ve read Aaron I had forgotten how good a writer he is but even for him this is prime drama. Gripping stuff bravo

 

[Moonreaper666]

5 hours ago, Morovir said:

I'm confused by ADB's thought process behind the progression of Kargos:

 

  Hide contents

Introduce a character based off a reference to a 40k character from 2e

Build him up

Kill him off before he can ever make it to the point that he was inspired by in the first place, despite the fact that by this point he has been confirmed to survive the heresy since 2015.

 

Just seems slightly counter-intuitive.

Spoiler

Who said Kargos is dead?

Maybe he is warp-touched like the Painted Count but rather than Daemonhood he is possessed or mutated

 

[lost_angel]

12 hours ago, Morovir said:

Introduce a character based off a reference to a 40k character from 2e

Build him up

Kill him off before he can ever make it to the point that he was inspired by in the first place, despite the fact that by this point he has been confirmed to survive the heresy since 2015.

I think this is because doing so would undermine one of the overarching themes in the book - which is that following chaos is, ultimately, a really #*%[ bad idea and everyone loses sight of themselves when they do it. 

Kargos was never a strong enough presence in the previous books to be the character that goes against the grain on this. in fact, The nearest we get to a character that could feasibly  make that famous 2nd Ed quote would be 

Spoiler

the word bearer who’s trying to use kargos as a cats paw but, again, Aaron reinforces the above sentiment by making him have a moment of shocking clarity just before the rest of the world eaters hack him to bits.

[Morovir]

Yes, but

Spoiler

Kargos was already written as having survived before this. Anthony Reynold's Khârn: Eater of Worlds describes him as one of the commanders at the World Eaters war council prior to Skalathrax, specifically calling him out as being Khârn's former Apothecary before taking command of another company in the aftermath of the Siege of Terra.

It's disappointing that ADB was either unaware of this or decided to overrule it anyway. For a series that was described by the authors as being meticulously researched in order to prevent errors of continuity, it's a shame that so many errors appear to have made it through. First Falkus Kibre, now Kargos (as well as smaller errors such as ADB misspelling Argonis' first name as Kenor rather than Kinor as it has been in all previous books and the whole Rogal Dorn as the Fourth Primarch debacle).

 

[Moonreaper666]

Spoiler

Oh you are wrong. 'Kargos' and 'Falkus Kibre' survive the Siege just like the Painted Count

1 hour ago, Morovir said:

Yes, but

  Hide contents

Kargos was already written as having survived before this. Anthony Reynold's Khârn: Eater of Worlds describes him as one of the commanders at the World Eaters war council prior to Skalathrax, specifically calling him out as being Khârn's former Apothecary before taking command of another company in the aftermath of the Siege of Terra.

It's disappointing that ADB was either unaware of this or decided to overrule it anyway. For a series that was described by the authors as being meticulously researched in order to prevent errors of continuity, it's a shame that so many errors appear to have made it through. First Falkus Kibre, now Kargos (as well as smaller errors such as ADB misspelling Argonis' first name as Kenor rather than Kinor as it has been in all previous books and the whole Rogal Dorn as the Fourth Primarch debacle).

 

 

[Cactus]

What's Kargos' 2nd edition origin? i assumed he was new in Betrayer.

[lost_angel]

1 hour ago, Cactus said:

What's Kargos' 2nd edition origin? i assumed he was new in Betrayer.

This should help…

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/so-whos-kargos/
 

3 hours ago, Morovir said:

Kargos was already written as having survived before this. Anthony Reynold's Khârn: Eater of Worlds describes him as one of the commanders at the World Eaters war council

Let’s face it. It wouldn’t be the first time in the series that an author has got their wires crossed or taken ownership of a character in a way that conflicts with stuff we already know (the Kibre screw up got on my nerves too). That said, we’re not talking about the major strokes or themes of the story and I think ADB’s take on things is strong enough that I can overlook the occasional screw up and roll with it. He certainly did more justice to Kargos than Abnett did with Falkus. 

[Osteoclast]

Spoiler

Given the explicit “KILL HIM” from the Emperor to Vulkan regarding Magnus, is anyone else suspecting that he won’t be hesitating against Horus?

 

[Moonreaper666]

On 9/11/2022 at 3:49 PM, Osteoclast said:

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Given the explicit “KILL HIM” from the Emperor to Vulkan regarding Magnus, is anyone else suspecting that he won’t be hesitating against Horus?

 

Spoiler

Laurie Golding said YEARS AGO the duel will be different!

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Kelborn