Size Increases and Terminators

[Marshal Reinhard]

Of course Gravis were intended be the Primaris equivalent of Terminator armor, at least in the beginning. There are many clues in the design to this. Chief among them would be the 'hood' that extends over half the helmet for most of the early designs, even when they seemingly serve little purpose there (like on the captain and flamer agressors), was definately a callback to the terninator design.

 

I agree that they've probably changed their role a bit as feedback to the designs and roles came in. When Heavy intercessors and eradicators come about, the hoods are all but gone (I assume they're still there, but retracted or similiar) so its much less certain they're stuck as the 'neo-terminator' design now.

 

While I would love to see a true neo-terminator design hit the primaris range, it'd be a bit tricky to see what they'd be with Gravis already existing (and being the go to armor of choice for many special characters, heck, Calgars terminator armor was used to make his new Gravis armor if I recall...)

 

What I'd want for neo-terminators would be that they're closer to the original than Gravis was, and that they work as well as Abaddons superior model does. Then I'd probably go nuts with their model kits.

[phandaal]

 

Regardless whether we agree on that isn't really important because we both see terminators as iconic enough that they will get touched up. Personally I think GW would have done the TS, and DG in the old scale if they didn't intend to upside them so I think it's alwayd been the case.

 

 

Definitely. My point about Gravis was intended to offer an explanation for why we did not see new Terminators - i.e., we did but they did not pan out as new Terminators in the end.

 

We agree 100% that Terminators are too iconic just to ditch for something else.

 

 

What I'd want for neo-terminators would be that they're closer to the original than Gravis was, and that they work as well as Abaddons superior model does. Then I'd probably go nuts with their model kits.

 

GW have proven with recent releases that they can take classic designs and update them while maintaining the original aesthetic. More importantly, they have proven that they are actually willing to do this. Eldar, Black Templars, Chaos, all have good examples to draw from.

[Blindhamster]

Mk X tacticus armour takes some queues from mk 4 (the helm), and mk 3 (layers to the leg armour and segments at the back as well as the extra armour over the forearm and wrist, it also obviously takes some design queues from mk 8, which in turn took queues from mk 7.

 

I think, if we ever see true primaris terminators, they won't simply be upscaled indomitus or cataphracti or tartaros, but instead will take elements from them all. Likely with the intent of creating a silhouette that is recognisably a terminator, whilst not being an obvious redesign of any one particular mark. This was exactly what Jes did with mk X, he ensured the silhouette remained the same even if the details did not.

 

So long as a new terminator model has the arms coming out of the right place, instead of the sides of the marines head, i'm sure it'll be cool. I do have to wonder what its design space on the tabletop would be, bladeguard are already super tanky and choppy, aggressors are already fisty and dakka-y. Aggressors were very obviously the tactical terminator replacement in terms of gameplay mechanics, but didn't pull it off in the model realm (a shame, as the BA aggressor shooting is a lovely piece of art and really makes the gravis suit look beefy and intimidating).

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Them bois be so cool.

[MegaVolt87]

As things stand, its more likely to see a re-scaled tartaros and cataphractii kits before indomnitus ones. The relic terminator and regular terminator profiles are the same, many people are using those kits to represent assault and tactical termi's as a result because those kits look better. The scale change of HH necessitates that those two kits need to be re-scaled at some point. 

[WARMASTER_]

With all the size increases we've seen in recent years does anyone think we've yet to see terminators because they're going to get a new "sculpt" and size boost in the nearish future?

I think as other have said the Space marine Heroes terminator sculpts are going to be the beach mark for scale if we see another release of terminators. They were sculpted after the Primaris wave and are scaled much more appropriately and dynamically too in my opinion

 

I’d actually love to see a release of something similar to that box even mono pose, where they could push the poses like in the SM heroes

[spessmarine]

Can't disagree.

Everytime I look at Gravis, it's what I'd think a re-scaled and tweaked to really feel like a 2+ save terminator would be.

 

Tatraros is far superior to Indomnitus.

Indomitus proportions just look awful now that more space marine stuff has better proportioning.

[Maritn]

I hope they take inspiration from Indomitus, especially those from Heroes, as I don't like the "new" Terminator models, if they decide to replace Terminators and not just scale them up. ;-)

[phandaal]

Can't disagree.

Everytime I look at Gravis, it's what I'd think a re-scaled and tweaked to really feel like a 2+ save terminator would be.

 

Tatraros is far superior to Indomnitus.

Indomitus proportions just look awful now that more space marine stuff has better proportioning.

 

Really big fan of Gravis. Have multiples of every Gravis unit except the Captain (only one of those, for shame), all painted up. Aggressors and Inceptors were the first Primaris units I ever bought. Even though Heavy Intercessors are pretty not good for the points cost I still bring them sometimes just because they look cool.

 

That said, Gravis is not Terminator armor. The difference in appearance is just too much.

 

Proportions are as simple as readjusting the position of the head and shoulders, and stretching out the legs and torsos.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Gravis armor is definitely not TEQ .

[MegaVolt87]

Since the new gravis used in kits like the heavy intercessors, Gravis is more like mk III power armour for primaris if you have to give OG mk's stat bumps. The Agressors are so diffrent with gravis makes me think GW changed their minds about gravis being a termi replacement. Primaris should get Mk II Saturine terminator armour, they are swole enough for a bigger saturine suit. 

[Helias_Tancred]

When this happens we will also see, either with the new model launch or shortly thereafter, new marine characters in terminator armor including named ones such as Lysander. 

[phandaal]

Primaris should get Mk II Saturine terminator armour, they are swole enough for a bigger saturine suit.

It should just be a scaled up version of the normal Terminator armor. Saturnine is a fun little callback to that goofy OG Terminator model from the ancient days, but the "Terminator" aesthetic has been consistent for more than three decades now.

 

It does feel like the winds are shifting from GW's previous "Enjoy New Coke," "change all the things because Reasons" track back towards updating and maintaining existing aesthetics; if Eldar, Chaos, and Tau are any indication.

[WARMASTER_]

I’m sorry but Gravis is definitely the new Terminator equivalent for Primaris

 

Every named character thus far that would or should be in terminator armour is in Gravis. Marneus Calgar being a prime example, that models going to be in the range for how long? 10+ years most likely, why would they update all of the biggest names characters and not bring out the “new Primaris terminator armour” without them wearing it, people may not like it as much but it’s definitely the Terminator equivalent

 

That doesn’t mean to say we won’t see heavier “styles”, just look at Calgars armour it’s definitely got that more Terminator feel than say the heavy intercessors but I don’t think there’s any question at this point… it’s the equivalent

 

It’s also in my mind not the replacement, unless they shift the lore forward another 500 years there’s going to be Firstborn marines around so they’ll never have to retire it, it might have been the original plan to but there’s to much lore now for the OG marines to disappear, my guess is through the heresy plastics we’ll see way more Firstborn sculpts of the next few years and eventually a redesign on the Terminators more inline with the Space marine heroes box

Edited March 18, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So you’re telling me flying terminators is a thing? LOL !

[phandaal]

So you’re telling me flying terminators is a thing? LOL !

Flying Terminators, infantry Terminators, we got em all!

 

I’m sorry but Gravis is definitely the new Terminator equivalent for Primaris

 

Every named character thus far that would or should be in terminator armour is in Gravis. Marneus Calgar being a prime example, that models going to be in the range for how long? 10+ years most likely, why would they update all of the biggest names characters and not bring out the “new Primaris terminator armour” without them wearing it, people may not like it as much but it’s definitely the Terminator equivalent

Was, not is. Calgar came out around the time that someone at GW was still convincing his colleagues that people would buy Gravis as the new Terminator hotness. Lucky for us, that person seems to have been given a swirlie and sent back to their desk because now Gravis is just "chunkier Intercessor" armor.

 

I own multiple of every non-Chapter specific Gravis unit BTW, no hate for the armor style itself.

Edited March 18, 2022 by phandaal

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The fact that Gravis armor doesn’t have a built-in invulnerable save tells me is not meant to be Primaris TEQ. In terms of survivability doesn’t even come close. 

[WARMASTER_]

I’m not sure where you’re getting that from? GW work around 5 years ahead, Jes Goodwin said it on Voxcast, so everything we’ve seen from the Primaris release was already designed before we even saw the first Primaris wave [give or take a few months], it’s not one man pushing im so confused as to where you’re getting that? it’s literally Jes Goodwins redesign of the SM range, and suddenly the chapter master that’s worn Terminator armour for 25+ years is now in Gravis it’s the Equivalent but not the replacement as I previously said

So you’re telling me flying terminators is a thing? LOL !

I can always rely on you to add a constructive point lol

[phandaal]

I’m not sure where you’re getting that from? GW work around 5 years ahead, Jes Goodwin said it on Voxcast, so everything we’ve seen from the Primaris release was already designed before we even saw the first Primaris wave [give or take a few months], it’s not one man pushing im so confused as to where you’re getting that? it’s literally Jes Goodwins redesign of the SM range, and suddenly the chapter master that’s worn Terminator armour for 25+ years is now in Gravis it’s the Equivalent but not the replacement as I previously said

 

 

For the record - not trying to fight you or one-up you here.

 

Getting it from the fact that Aggressors, which look like the earliest Gravis design, are a clear attempt to translate Terminators over to Primaris. And the fact that Calgar got it too (the first Firstborn to cross the Rubicon Primaris!!). On top of that we know GW wanted to time jump into a future where Primaris reigned supreme.

 

Then we see Gravis being used for jump pack troops, basic infantry, and Eradicators, and it tells the story of GW having the idea to replace Terminator armor with Gravis and then canning that idea somewhere along the line. Maybe around the same time that GW decided not to End Times the 40k universe.

 

Now Gravis is just chunky armor.

 

And Jes Goodwin, industry titan though he certainly is, is still just one man. In fact, he is more capable than most of pushing an idea ahead even when it might not be the best idea. Who is going to say no to Jes Freakin Goodwin? That is how you get people in the office convinced that Gravis is Terminator armor. I will concede that he probably does not get swirlies in the office though.

[Uberlord Gendo]

I think you're all oversimplifying it a bit in the same way the "SJWs ruined Star Wars 7" comments did. GW doesn't have a unified vision of things; it's a bunch of different teams who have overlapping visions that can be at odds with one another. Sculptor, Goodwin, and rules team probably had three different ideas all of which is probably modulated by sales figures and community response.

Like if I'm not mistaken, the whole firstborn-primaris division is mostly a community driven thing, the early stuff didn't see it as a big divide. (They focused more on the Martian influence vs chapter traditions.)

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I’m sorry but Gravis is definitely the new Terminator equivalent for Primaris

 

Every named character thus far that would or should be in terminator armour is in Gravis. Marneus Calgar being a prime example, that models going to be in the range for how long? 10+ years most likely, why would they update all of the biggest names characters and not bring out the “new Primaris terminator armour” without them wearing it, people may not like it as much but it’s definitely the Terminator equivalent

 

That doesn’t mean to say we won’t see heavier “styles”, just look at Calgars armour it’s definitely got that more Terminator feel than say the heavy intercessors but I don’t think there’s any question at this point… it’s the equivalent

 

It’s also in my mind not the replacement, unless they shift the lore forward another 500 years there’s going to be Firstborn marines around so they’ll never have to retire it, it might have been the original plan to but there’s to much lore now for the OG marines to disappear, my guess is through the heresy plastics we’ll see way more Firstborn sculpts of the next few years and eventually a redesign on the Terminators more inline with the Space marine heroes box

While I don’t agree with it I can understand the viewpoint that Gravis was meant to replace terminator armor, but I don’t think calling it an equivalent is fair.

 

Terminators have a level of customization that primaris will just never get. They have an inbuilt invulnerable save which primaris probably won't get. Native deep strike which has been very limited in the primaris line. Terminators are the type of unit that GW is trying to avoid in the primaris line up.

 

It doesn't hurt that terminator scale creep has pretty always been really successful for them.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

I’m not sure where you’re getting that from? GW work around 5 years ahead, Jes Goodwin said it on Voxcast, so everything we’ve seen from the Primaris release was already designed before we even saw the first Primaris wave [give or take a few months], it’s not one man pushing im so confused as to where you’re getting that? it’s literally Jes Goodwins redesign of the SM range, and suddenly the chapter master that’s worn Terminator armour for 25+ years is now in Gravis it’s the Equivalent but not the replacement as I previously said

 

For the record - not trying to fight you or one-up you here.

 

Getting it from the fact that Aggressors, which look like the earliest Gravis design, are a clear attempt to translate Terminators over to Primaris. And the fact that Calgar got it too (the first Firstborn to cross the Rubicon Primaris!!). On top of that we know GW wanted to time jump into a future where Primaris reigned supreme.

 

Then we see Gravis being used for jump pack troops, basic infantry, and Eradicators, and it tells the story of GW having the idea to replace Terminator armor with Gravis and then canning that idea somewhere along the line. Maybe around the same time that GW decided not to End Times the 40k universe.

 

Now Gravis is just chunky armor.

 

And Jes Goodwin, industry titan though he certainly is, is still just one man. In fact, he is more capable than most of pushing an idea ahead even when it might not be the best idea. Who is going to say no to Jes Freakin Goodwin? That is how you get people in the office convinced that Gravis is Terminator armor. I will concede that he probably does not get swirlies in the office though.

Me neither I’m happy debating the point

 

I think that’s the part we’re disagreeing on because Jes Goodwin was the creative lead with the Primaris range so he designed the Primaris range entire, it’s not a case of him convincing people of anything you’re underestimating his role

 

The Primaris range is an evolution on SM range not a direct replacement. look and Phobos and the parallels with scout combat doctrines, Phobos is the next step…it’s an evolution and Gravis is no different it’s much more like heresy era when terminator armour was given to standard line units for line breaker or zone mortalis operations, it would be invaluable to a chapter to be able to equip its warriors with a heavier armour that isn’t as rare as Terminator plate, it was never meant to replace Terminator armour it’s the evolution of it for the range, and as Chapter masters are wearing it as an equivalent in the Primaris range it’s definitely that

[Dracos]

Interesting how our Scouts got tougher and our Elite guys got weaker with Primaris.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Interesting how our Scouts got tougher and our Elite guys got weaker with Primaris.

 

Yeah its by design IMO. I like trying to make different specialist units work well together, but its hard to ignore the fact that they its really easy for them to create a need for us to add to our collections. BGV are perfect example of this, if power swords become a bit weaker or master crafted changes to a different effect besides +1 dmg Primaris will be looking for different answers and they can make a new kit for that. It basically happened with aggressors who were too good and then toned down, but not before they moved a lot of kits.

 

I think they're aware of how apparent that is and are making sure the troop choices all feel pretty decent to keep people invested.  

[jaxom]

Inspiration —> concept design —> lore —> rules

 

Personally, I prefer the Aggressor design over Eradicators and Heavy Intersessors. I’m not so keen “take a marine with a bolter or a melta gun and make them chunkier.” It’s not that I don’t like them, I just find the Aggressors to be visually complimentary when next to Intercessors.