Space Marines need help…

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

If a book has only 1 option or unit capable of doing something, its generally cheaper

Yeah, I can understand that, but mirage launchers are really good. -1 to hit, and not allowing re-rolls is a crazy ability. I'd pay 20 points for that ability on an implusor in heartbeat. So, its probably worth a bit more that that. With my math Voidweaver is getting around a 25% discount (and that's with me going on the low end for a lot of these abilities). That just seems too pushed for a game that wants to sell you two balance updates a year. If you at the break downs on goonhammer its noteworthy if a list isn't bringing 9 of them.

 

It feels like for the entire history of ninth we've had 1-2 armies with winrates in the 70s and again they are charging more for balance updates then they ever have before. I just don't see how you can make units even better and still have a compelling game. Nerfs just need to start happening IMO.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Son of Sacrifice]

 

 

Things start undercosted to sell kits. They made voidweavers stupid good for under 100 points. Does this make sense for balance? If so, I can't see how.

 

But what happened: tons of tournament players ran out and bought 9 voidweavers. Then meta chasers bought a ton of voidweavers. Following that, GW started rolling back the rules. Over time, they will likely be recosted.

 

They've done this with every faction in 9th.

 

It's not about balance at first. The release phase is about selling kits. Balancing comes later to maintain a playable system. If you want to play balanced games, just avoid stuff that came out in the last 3 months.

This guy ^

 

100% on target. They pull this crap to enhance sales.

If that's true then why have most Primaris units been so overcosted at release?

[phandaal]

 

 

 

Things start undercosted to sell kits. They made voidweavers stupid good for under 100 points. Does this make sense for balance? If so, I can't see how.

 

But what happened: tons of tournament players ran out and bought 9 voidweavers. Then meta chasers bought a ton of voidweavers. Following that, GW started rolling back the rules. Over time, they will likely be recosted.

 

They've done this with every faction in 9th.

 

It's not about balance at first. The release phase is about selling kits. Balancing comes later to maintain a playable system. If you want to play balanced games, just avoid stuff that came out in the last 3 months.

This guy ^

 

100% on target. They pull this crap to enhance sales.

If that's true then why have most Primaris units been so overcosted at release?

Most Primaris units have not been overcosted at release.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I tend to think most primaris units have been over costed at release.

 

Intercessors got a pretty quick point drop, reivers have been bad since day 1, redemptors weren't popular till 9th, aggressors got a 3rd wound & attack before they saw play, replusors stunk. Only the die hards used our characters. So basically, out of the first wave Hellblasters, & inceptors were what saw play (and honestly 8th was the plasma edition).

 

The Shadow spear wave was pretty decent. Infiltrators, incursors, and supressors were solid. Impulsors and Eliminators were under costed. The librarian from that wave was useful, and repulsor executioners worked well with specific chapters. Invictors are always going to be in a weird spot because they are all or nothing unit.

 

Indomitus wave was a mixed bag. Bike Chaplain, Eradicators, & bladeguard were under costed. Assault Intercessors, Primaris Techmarines & Outriders are probably costed where they should be. Heavy Intercessors feel underwhelming. Then we get to the vehicles I think the atv was broken at release when apothecaries could bring it back to life, but all of the storm speeders stunk, and the gladiators made them look good.

 

I may have forgotten a unit or two in there but what really makes me feel that most primaris units are released over costed is that I think foot marine characters in general stink, and we've gotten a ton of them. That said I like that they've been conservative with primaris releases, new stuff shouldn't always be pushed. The first wave especially because I think they weren't sure what a bunch of 2 wound models would do (they would be incredible in earlier editions).

[Maritn]

 

 

 

Things start undercosted to sell kits. They made voidweavers stupid good for under 100 points. Does this make sense for balance? If so, I can't see how.

 

But what happened: tons of tournament players ran out and bought 9 voidweavers. Then meta chasers bought a ton of voidweavers. Following that, GW started rolling back the rules. Over time, they will likely be recosted.

 

They've done this with every faction in 9th.

 

It's not about balance at first. The release phase is about selling kits. Balancing comes later to maintain a playable system. If you want to play balanced games, just avoid stuff that came out in the last 3 months.

This guy ^

 

100% on target. They pull this crap to enhance sales.

If that's true then why have most Primaris units been so overcosted at release?

Because SM players buy everything GW releases anyway. ;-)

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Thats a very good point Maritn the amount of marines I own is source of pride/embarrassment lol. 

[CrystalSeer]

I imagine the number of marine players means that they have huge sales without being op. Also, the effect of space marines being stronger will have a higher resultant effect on the meta.

 

People always buy marines; xenos sales hinge on in game benefits

 

Another point: although players view chapters as separate, from a 'model company' point of view it's one range with special add on units. That's relevant because when one or two chapters dominate, that can be read as the whole codex being dominant.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I imagine the number of marine players means that they have huge sales without being op. Also, the effect of space marines being stronger will have a higher resultant effect on the meta.

 

People always buy marines; xenos sales hinge on in game benefits

 

Another point: although players view chapters as separate, from a 'model company' point of view it's one range with special add on units. That's relevant because when one or two chapters dominate, that can be read as the whole codex being dominant.

 

Yeah, those are some good points. Though I do think part of why xenos need strong rules is because they don't get nearly as many discounted starting points. I think people underestimate how affordable marines appear because they have like 5 combat patrol boxes, and starter sets plus still show up in the limited boxes. Personally, I've always liked Nids but man they're expensive, and honestly their combat patrol style releases haven't appealed to me. If they had more options or had been in a starter set I'd have them. Its probably a good thing because I don't have enough time for the armies I do have but it is something I wish they would factor in more.

[Maritn]

Thats a very good point Maritn the amount of marines I own is source of pride/embarrassment lol.

Same here lol. Even though I mostly bought SM vs X boxes (like Tooth and Claw, Indomitus etc), I also bought a few boxes of models I like the look of, like Heavy Intercessors and Repulsors.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Maritn

[Marshal Mittens]

Indomitus and Dark Imperium were both amazing for getting huge amounts of units dirt cheap! This last Christmas Battleforce was also, I feel, really good. I would agree that you can get into marines in a comparatively affordable way. Personally I also find that marines look awesome and have a lot of options.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The ninth edition codex is overall a huge nerf… we lost a lot and our best units got unnecessary points increases before any of the super codices were released.

[Maritn]

Yeah, point increases for an army that was already struggling were stupid... If they wanted to see more diversity in lists, they should have decreased the points of underperforming units, starting with vehicles (and not just this "Look, Land Raiders are going down 5 points, better buy twenty more!!1!").

[ST.Lazarus]

Fundamentally I think that the issue is and the reason why I paused my 40k hobby:

 

• GW cranking up the power creep, giving out weapons and abilities like candy that both kills 6 point guardsmen and 20 point Marines with the same ease
• In Marines being an elite army but lacking comparable elite abilities and equipment to other elite armies and units
• Marines having legacy design choices and a visual profile that needs to see rules changed as changing the physical model is ruled out
• Just lowering the points cost takes away form the elitness of the army. 
• Marines in 8th had access to strong aura abilities and the core rules supported the playstyle of the codex, that has now been nerfed and the game has moved on.

In lieu of scraping all books and re-doing the entirety of the game marines need to see buffs on a rules level. 

 

For me the core of theme of the Space Marine army has always been that the basic tactical/intercessor unit should be elite and not a points tax and that the different specialist units should fill specific roles and not be spammed. 

 

My solution would be to leave much of the base stats and units as they are without changing stats and equipment and then look at giving the space marine character units abilities to boost units in the army. Removing the limitations of a aura ability and instead treating the characters as upgrades to the army as a whole would make for more thematic and flexible. 

 

Examples just to illustrate:

• Captains lets all core units in the armyy re-roll 1s to hit, a chapter master give all troop units re-roll to hit with shooting.
• Techmarines give core units with bolters +1S, a upgrades master of the forge gives a boost to all core vehicles

And so forth.

Edited April 10, 2022 by ST.Lazarus

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Fundamentally I think that the issue is and the reason why I paused my 40k hobby:

 

• GW cranking up the power creep, giving out weapons and abilities like candy that both kills 6 point guardsmen and 20 point Marines with the same ease
• In Marines being an elite army but lacking comparable elite abilities and equipment to other elite armies and units
• Marines having legacy design choices and a visual profile that needs to see rules changed as changing the physical model is ruled out
• Just lowering the points cost takes away form the elitness of the army. 
• Marines in 8th had access to strong aura abilities and the core rules supported the playstyle of the codex, that has now been nerfed and the game has moved on.

In lieu of scraping all books and re-doing the entirety of the game marines need to see buffs on a rules level. 

 

For me the core of theme of the Space Marine army has always been that the basic tactical/intercessor unit should be elite and not a points tax and that the different specialist units should fill specific roles and not be spammed. 

 

My solution would be to leave much of the base stats and units as they are without changing stats and equipment and then look at giving the space marine character units abilities to boost units in the army. Removing the limitations of a aura ability and instead treating the characters as upgrades to the army as a whole would make for more thematic and flexible. 

 

Examples just to illustrate:

• Captains lets all core units in the armyy re-roll 1s to hit, a chapter master give all troop units re-roll to hit with shooting.
• Techmarines give core units with bolters +1S, a upgrades master of the forge gives a boost to all core vehicles

And so forth.

 

I think the problem with this solution is that you'd overshoot the goal. Marines would be top tier immediately. With a captain's auras I might only effect 2-3 units out of 12 or so that could gain it. Thats going to be a massive power boost those 10 units. Plus I don't have to risk my captain, same for adding +1 str to bolter weapons, and that isn't factoring in chaplains, apothecaries, and ancients etc. and the benefits they'd provide.

 

If the problem is powercreep, and you don't want marines to get cheaper the answer is to nerf the weapons that go through 6 point infantry just as fast the 20 point marines. Otherwise your just adding more powercreep which can only lead to more powercreep.

[ST.Lazarus]

It's all wish listing so there is no reason to work out the balance of the details, the blueprint would be found in something like the "synaptic imperative" from the Tyranid book.

 

I think GW is aware of the issue and and that we will see a new Marine book being announced soon, we will just have to wait to see how they resolve it. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by ST.Lazarus

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It's all wish listing so there is no reason to work out the balance of the details, the blueprint would be found in something like the "synaptic imperative" from the Tyranid book.

 

I think GW is aware of the issue and and that we will see a new Marine book being announced soon, we will just have to wait to see how they resolve it. 

 

Thats fair, and honestly GW is a lot more likely to go in that direction then trying to balance things. I just get a bit frustrated cause they want me to buy 2 chapter approved a year and at the same time most of the books are pointless in less than year.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GW is the second largest book seller in Europe.

[ST.Lazarus]

It's an awful state of affairs with the power levels right now, and I worry greatly for the health of the game.

Edited April 10, 2022 by ST.Lazarus

[Marshal Mittens]

It's an awful state of affairs with the power levels right now, and I worry greatly for the health of the game.

Very much agree.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Marshall Mittens

[Djangomatic82]

I'm pretty sure opening up the Battle Tactic stratagems, giving <CORE> to most vehicles and cutting points across the board would fix most problems with the codex, without needing to mess with datasheets.

 

Regarding the strats, i think changing them as follows would be very interesting.

-Rapid Fire-Limiting it to Bolt Weapons only and usable by the following units: Intercessors, Veteran Intercessors, Agressors, Sternguard, Company Veterans, Terminator Squad, Relic Terminator Squad.

-Honour the Chapter: Change it to 1cp for units of 5 or < models, 2CP for >5 models and let the following units use it,

Assault Intercessors, Veteran Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Assault Squad, Vanguard Veterans, Company Veterans, Assault Terminators, Relic Terminators

-Genewrought Might: Open it up to the following units: Incursors, Heavy Intercessors, Tactical Squad, Scouts, Reivers, Devastators, Hellblasters, Eliminators, Eradicators, Supressors, Inceptors, Scout Bikers, Bike Squad

- Fury of the First: Open it up to the following units- Terminators, Assault Terminators, Relic Terminators, Sternguard, Vanguard Veterans, Bladeguard Veterans

-Unyielding in the face of the foe: Leave it as is.

- Transhuman Physiology: Change it from <PRIMARIS> to <INFANTRY> and <BIKER>

 

 

[Helias_Tancred]

 

 

Things start undercosted to sell kits. They made voidweavers stupid good for under 100 points. Does this make sense for balance? If so, I can't see how.

 

But what happened: tons of tournament players ran out and bought 9 voidweavers. Then meta chasers bought a ton of voidweavers. Following that, GW started rolling back the rules. Over time, they will likely be recosted.

 

They've done this with every faction in 9th.

 

It's not about balance at first. The release phase is about selling kits. Balancing comes later to maintain a playable system. If you want to play balanced games, just avoid stuff that came out in the last 3 months.

This guy ^

 

100% on target. They pull this crap to enhance sales.

If that's true then why have most Primaris units been so overcosted at release?

 

 

lol its space marines. They always sell regardless. 

[Helias_Tancred]

It's an awful state of affairs with the power levels right now, and I worry greatly for the health of the game.

 

Amen.

 

I've learned when it comes to 40k  keep my circle of 40k friends/opponents small and select, so to avoid a lot of the rampant meta-chasing cheese.

[Lord_Ikka]

SM have a lot of the same issues as Necrons, without the points drop and Core additions that Necrons got a little while ago that just barely pulls them into the 45-55% win rate that all factions should be at (for a truly balanced game). Both factions came out early in 9th and were written (especially Necrons) as a direct reflection on what was going on in 8th edition at the time- so less focus was put on the new Core mechanic, or what would come to be a prevalence of d2 weaponry and damage reduction that has become so difficult for both factions to deal with (SM die like flies to d2 and Necrons can't push out steady damage with damage reduction/swingy weapon damage). 

 

Unfortunately, neither faction will be fixed with simple points change or easily-added in keyword changes- we've seen the Necrons come out of the gutter, but they are still hovering at only 46% win rate in recent tournaments. SM, with all of their various Chapters, average out even worse (DA/BA are around the same as Necrons, but no other chapter comes close to that). 

 

Whether or not we'll get a new SM or Necron codex that will fix issues really depends on what GW's future plans look like regarding 10th edition. We know there are at least 4-5 more 8th ed to 9th ed faction codex releases coming (Knights of both stripe, Chaos Daemons, CSM, IG, possibly a World Eater/Emperor's Children codex). If GW keeps up the schedule they have the last few releases (one per month for 2022), that's roughly six months of releases, meaning October/November would have the Squats faction coming out for a Xmas push. Seems likely that would happen for business reasons (new faction released during the holidays is a good money-maker), as well as at least on more "Season" campaign release, going on the six month season schedule. So earliest we would see something for SM/Necron 2.0 would be late December/early 2023- unless GW is planning to release 10th ed in 2023. Then there wouldn't be a 2.0 release, but SM would see one of the first released codices for 10th (the last three editions SM has had their new codex within two months of edition release). 

 

My guess would be that if Covid wouldn't have shut down the last 18-24 months of regular play, GW would be releasing 10th in 2023. Now, I give it a 50/50 that they will let 9th run for another year, using the Season system to milk out the final runs of 9th, with a big run-up to 10th that would have a 2nd Loyalist Primarch coming back. 

 

As for how SM will play until then, I'm not optimistic. We might get a useful Army of Reknown in a Season campaign book (unlike the rubbish Phobos one) and some movement around points changes, but I don't see any meaningful rules changes happening. I think a good barometer may be the upcoming Balancesheet this next week- we will see how Harlies are nerfed and what GW is likely to do with any sort of rules modifications.

[MegaVolt87]

Honest question to loyalist players- do you really want a new 9th ed codex you will be lucky to see 12 months of use from before 10th ed releases and will be likely a launch edition army anyway? I think you all should be asking for the missing chapter supplements at this point in time instead of a new base codex. 

[Orange Knight]

Honest question to loyalist players- do you really want a new 9th ed codex you will be lucky to see 12 months of use from before 10th ed releases and will be likely a launch edition army anyway? I think you all should be asking for the missing chapter supplements at this point in time instead of a new base codex.

Absolutely lol