Space Marines need help…

[WrathOfTheLion]

That depends, if the Horus Heresy is quite commercially successful (which I think it will be), then it also means that new firstborn stuff may be similarly successful and trying to sell you an upscaled firstborn army might get the greenlight. I doubt they'd miss the opportunity to sell people a new army.

 

...

 

As per your original post, one thing highly likely to garner from the CSM codex, is that shock assault may be removed in lieu of a blanket +1 attack across the board.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

I still think the Primaris and Principia Marines will eventually be split into separate codices.

 

Not going to happen. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

 

GW has gone out of their way to have both flavors of Space Marine fighting as single units in lore and artwork.

 

Primaris-only will not happen unless GW phases OG Marines out of the game entirely.

 

 

Lore? You've heard the expression "talk is cheap?" That's lore.

 

And what you seem to be failing to consider is that what GW was going out of their way to do was prevent a customer exodus by outright stating when the Primaris were introduced that they'd be taking the place of the Firstborn armies people have spent years and decades collecting. Thus the constant messaging about Primaris units fitting "in between" existing Firstborn units. And thus why the initial wave and the followup Phobos wave were all units that didn't step on existing Firstborn units.

 

But then we got the Outriders. And the Assault-Marines-without-jumppacks soon to be joined by the Assault-Marines-WITH-Jumppacks-Wait-What-Do-We-Need-Firstborn-Assault-Marines-for-again...

 

This is BASIC marketing strategy for introducing a new product range that is in danger of competing with an existing product with an entrenched customer base that you REALLY want to phase out without admitting it.

 

Shorties and Primaris will eventually get separate books. I'm sure of it, you THINK you "know" the opposite.

 

But everything GW has done since 2017 says it'll happen.

 

Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon.

 

And for the rest of your life.

[phandaal]

But then we got the Outriders. And the Assault-Marines-without-jumppacks soon to be joined by the Assault-Marines-WITH-Jumppacks-Wait-What-Do-We-Need-Firstborn-Assault-Marines-for-again...

 

This is BASIC marketing strategy for introducing a new product range that is in danger of competing with an existing product with an entrenched customer base that you REALLY want to phase out without admitting it.

These are true facts, and if you can believe it: nobody is arguing this.

 

Shorties and Primaris will eventually get separate books.

This is where things go wrong. Not a mind reader, but it feels like people decide this because they think it will get them to Primaris-only faster than if GW takes their time to retire non-Primaris outright. So they say it will happen because they want it to happen.

 

However, GW is more likely to retire non-Primaris than stick them in their own book.

 

What makes sense, if we assume GW's plan is to eventually have only Primaris, is for GW to slowly phase out the non-Primaris range while milking whatever market remains. That does not happen if non-Primaris are in their own codex.

 

Also, having two Space Marine books would just be a terrible way to handle things. We all know that people would blow their lids like Krakatoa if non-Primaris got put into their own "gonna get Squatted" separate codex.

[Karhedron]

That isn't going to fix the army. A Repulsor with re-rolls is still grossly over-costed, underpowered and lacks durability, for example.

You can get almost 2 Falcons for the cost of a Repulsor. If you look at the difference in terms of firepower, durability and flexibility, it is clear how bad Marine vehicles are. And the crazy thing is that the Falcon is not a broken or undercosted unit by the standards of the Eldar codex. That honour goes to the Voidweaver.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I dont think we'll get split codices. Rather, classic marines will eventually go to legends and horus heresy. Maybe once the marine dex is primaris only itll still have a page talking about classic units for use in 40k and how their rules can be found in legends.

 

But I just dont believe we'll have codex marines and codex more marines

[Kallas]

You can get almost 2 Falcons for the cost of a Repulsor. If you look at the difference in terms of firepower, durability and flexibility, it is clear how bad Marine vehicles are. And the crazy thing is that the Falcon is not a broken or undercosted unit by the standards of the Eldar codex. That honour goes to the Voidweaver.

I was comparing the Falcon and the Predator Destructor the other day. Same base cost and the Falcon is just...better in literally every category.

[TheNewman]

I want to say that splitting Primaris and Firstborn into separate codexes seems unlikely, but then I remember that we're talking about GW here.

 

They're definitely going to do the math on the potential profit from selling two different codexes and different supplements to people with mixed collections vs the profit of keeping Firstborn in the book and covering "no-model-no-rules" out of the HH kits vs removing Firstborn from 40k and marketing HH to people with mixed collections.

 

I would think option two would win out for profits but if I've learned anything it's that the people who run companies generally do not live in the same world as the rest of us, and GW has a history of misjudging how far they can go before we start breaking out the pitchforks.

[Malakithe]

Separate books also means separate supplements for every chapter, which they wont do. Thats way too much work and is basically shooting themselves in the foot for their future plans. 

 

The separation will happen at some point but not until every chapter has special primaris units like DA Primaris Deathwing Knights or BA Primaris Sanguinary Guard. Once specialized chapter specific stuff comes out then we will see the tiny lesser marines moved to Legends then LCTB then gone. But thats still way out like 5-10 years mostly likely

[WrathOfTheLion]

Separate books also means separate supplements for every chapter, which they wont do. Thats way too much work and is basically shooting themselves in the foot for their future plans. 

 

The separation will happen at some point but not until every chapter has special primaris units like DA Primaris Deathwing Knights or BA Primaris Sanguinary Guard. Once specialized chapter specific stuff comes out then we will see the tiny lesser marines moved to Legends then LCTB then gone. But thats still way out like 5-10 years mostly likely

I don't know if that's quite a guarantee, I could easily see them doing more with it and leaning more into being able to play the chapter any time during M31-M41. They're going to wait quite a while before we get there though.

 

The supplement system does pretty much preclude splitting them at this point in time as you say.

 

As for how it all shakes up currently, points drops on infantry I don't think is the right way to go. They did that in 8E, where they progressively made things cheaper, and it didn't really work well. I'd rather see them tone the other armies down, instead of just adding more and more bodies onto the field.

Edited April 14, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't think that separate marine codex for primaris and firstborn will happen. Units disappearing over time or losing options is likely.

 

There are two main reasons

1. A lot of people will be angry.

 

2. The older kits are in their most profitable phase. Selling a new player a couple of vanguard vet boxes, drop pods and devastors kits is great for GW. If people have to buy another book that barrier of entry may be too much.

[Karhedron]

Rejoice Brothers! The Emperor has heard our pleas and in his magnificance, he has provided the The Armour of Contempt!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It certainly helps, especially as it applies RAW to tanks *and* Dreadnoughts. Especially for IH with our FNP and Sallies who can't be rerolled against for wounds (same dataslate!).

 

I don't think this will necessarily turn the meta to going tank-heavy -- there's still plenty of ATGs capable of throwing a metric ton of hate -- but it'll help.

[Karhedron]

Agreed. It is not going to catpult us or our tanks to the top of the league tables but as the advert says, every little helps!

[Orange Knight]

It will benefit chapters that are already strong, such as the Dark Angels and Black Templars, and might help them to reach a higher standing in the meta.

 

Most other chapters are still going to fare very poorly. Imperial Fists aren't going to win the Las Vegas open because of this lol. Unfortunately all the vehicles are still very poor.

[phandaal]

It will benefit chapters that are already strong, such as the Dark Angels and Black Templars, and might help them to reach a higher standing in the meta.

 

Most other chapters are still going to fare very poorly. Imperial Fists aren't going to win the Las Vegas open because of this lol. Unfortunately all the vehicles are still very poor.

 

Reduced AP will be nice for Ravenwing and Terminators without Storm Shields. On the other hand, Talonmaster Bodyguard cheese is finally dead and buried.

[Orange Knight]

Let's not forget that the Thunderfire Cannon and the Whirlwind variants have been nerfed significantly.

 

Unfortunately vehicles across the codex still remain unplayable in any game outside the most pre-arranged, friendly experience.

[Dark Shepherd]

Thunderfires were already nerfed, so dont think anybody was using them any more. That said they deserve a points drop now

[TheNewman]

Reduced AP will be nice for Ravenwing and Terminators without Storm Shields. On the other hand, Talonmaster Bodyguard cheese is finally dead and buried.

It is, and yet it isn't. Look Out Sir is still in effect, so you can still hide the bodyguard and leave the dangerous character out in the open so long as something else is closer. What it does stop is Bodyguards disabling snipers and overwatch (mostly).

 

Armor if Contempt creates two really weird scenarios, one is that Power Armor is now exactly as effective against Ap 0 as it is against Ap 1, and the other is that Storm Shields work on Ap 3+ and on Ap 0 but do nothing against Ap 1 and 2.

 

This is why I liked WMH so much better; damage is your dice + S - Armor, it's simple and elegant and it doesn't create a bunch of odd brackets where Weapon A is better against T3 and T6-7 and Weapon B is better against T8-9 and they're identical everywhere else or a shield is meaningless against two specific Ap values but not above or below that range.

Thunderfires were already nerfed, so dont think anybody was using them any more. That said they deserve a points drop now

Thunderfires are like Whirlwinds; nobody was using them for the damage output, they're just strat-caddies.

[phandaal]

 

Reduced AP will be nice for Ravenwing and Terminators without Storm Shields. On the other hand, Talonmaster Bodyguard cheese is finally dead and buried.

It is, and yet it isn't. Look Out Sir is still in effect, so you can still hide the bodyguard and leave the dangerous character out in the open so long as something else is closer. What it does stop is Bodyguards disabling snipers and overwatch (mostly).

 

 

 

True. More limiting to where the model can go though - no more just sitting out in the open without a care in the world because now they can actually at least be targeted.

[War of the Eagle]

It certainly helps, especially as it applies RAW to tanks *and* Dreadnoughts. Especially for IH with our FNP and Sallies who can't be rerolled against for wounds (same dataslate!).

 

I don't think this will necessarily turn the meta to going tank-heavy -- there's still plenty of ATGs capable of throwing a metric ton of hate -- but it'll help.

Think its RAI aswell since they specifically call out dreadknights as an exception which is a vehical. Meaning they intended for other vehicals to benifit.

[Kallas]

 

Thunderfires were already nerfed, so dont think anybody was using them any more. That said they deserve a points drop now

Thunderfires are like Whirlwinds; nobody was using them for the damage output, they're just strat-caddies.

 

It is honestly mind-boggling how GW thought that the current price of the current TFC was appropriate. And now with the Indirect Fire nerf, they're even worse. They're now just bad Bolters which is impressive in and of itself!

[CCE1981]

Armor of Contempt is interesting. Does that mean the AP 0 becomes AP +1. So if my marine gets hit with a lasgun I get a 2+ save?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No. Main rulebook states that AP can never be reduced below 0.

[Orange Knight]

Armor of Contempt is interesting. Does that mean the AP 0 becomes AP +1. So if my marine gets hit with a lasgun I get a 2+ save?

Nope, it does not increase armour

[Dracos]

Armor of Contempt is interesting. Does that mean the AP 0 becomes AP +1. So if my marine gets hit with a lasgun I get a 2+ save?

Welcome to a world where the boltgun = lasgun and a bolt rifle = equals a long range lasgun lol