Lord_Ikka Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 I've realised that with the new rule in place, the only truly good "vanilla" psychic power - "Psychic Fortress" is now very niche and situational. I'll be dropping Librarians completely from any list I use in future. Of course some specific chapters still have effective and compelling psychic powers. Null Zone might have more of an impact now- taking away all invulns can work out better for SM with AoC active than previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelus Nex Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Have imperial fists grotten better, ignoring cover and having 2 strategems that can increase armour saves. Bolster defences can make an intercessor or heavy intercessor squad a meant objective holder. Also, a shield unwavering is also quite nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Have imperial fists grotten better, ignoring cover and having 2 strategems that can increase armour saves. Bolster defences can make an intercessor or heavy intercessor squad a meant objective holder. Also, a shield unwavering is also quite nice. All Space Marines have gotten better. The relative power levels between chapters should not change aside from the boost to Salamanders. Cover adds the same benefit now as it did before the update. Marines are just a little bit tougher in general now, wherever they are on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toldavf Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Actualy the more resilient the unit is to begin with the more it benefits from AOC. Not all Marines are made equal. Karhedron and Iron Father Ferrum 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Actualy the more resilient the unit is to begin with the more it benefits from AOC. Not all Marines are made equal. That is a good point. AoC is significantly better on 2+ units than 3+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phandaal Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Actualy the more resilient the unit is to begin with the more it benefits from AOC. Not all Marines are made equal. That is a good point. AoC is significantly better on 2+ units than 3+. My napkin tells me that preventing a 2+ from becoming a 3+ (i.e. a normal marine in +1 cover benefitting from 1 point of AP reduction against AP -1) cuts the total potential save failures in half (2/6 to 1/6). If we look at it as additional potential successful saves, it is 25% more (4/6 to 5/6). On the flip side of the napkin, a 3+ out of cover preventing 1 point of AP against -1 AP cuts the total potential save failures from 3/6 to 2/6, i.e. by a third. In terms of additional potential successful saves, it is 33% more (3/6 to 4/6). Is there better math for this, maybe for higher AP values and terminator/artificer armor, etc? Would be interested to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Knight Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 The biggest winners are Death Guard and Dark Angels. Every other chapter has improved, but those two in particular are well ahead of the pack now. Marshal Mittens 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Iron Hands too, I think. They're a durability faction, so more durability on top of their built in durability helps. BLACK BLΠFLY and Medjugorje 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Yeah this is huge for Iron Hands. I’d say Salamanders as well. I’ve heard IF have a couple strats to manipulate their armor save values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 (edited) The biggest winners are Death Guard and Dark Angels. Every other chapter has improved, but those two in particular are well ahead of the pack now. The chapters who gained the most: - Iron Hands - Raven Guard ( in addition with Character rules) gained less then others: - Black Templars ( because their greatest strength of 5++ is not that worth anymore Edited April 18, 2022 by Medjugorje Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 I noticed that they were called “Chaos Legionary”, maybe that is a Veteran of the Long War, and they will have a “disgraced Space marine” that is more comparable to the current Space Marines. Just food for thought, doubtful GW would do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Knight Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 I noticed that they were called “Chaos Legionary”, maybe that is a Veteran of the Long War, and they will have a “disgraced Space marine” that is more comparable to the current Space Marines. Just food for thought, doubtful GW would do that. It's their basic troop unit, the renaming was announced a while back I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 I think the main purpose is to remove the ambiguity here, where you have 'Chaos Space Marines' as a unit in the 'Chaos Space Marines' faction. BLACK BLΠFLY and Medjugorje 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 It very well might be. I was thinking more along the lines of a Primaris-LIKE Chaos Legionaries, and Firstborn-LIKE Renegade Space Marines. Note: I am not holding my breath here. It would just be nice to have a differentiation between Renegade Chapters and Veterans of the Long War Legionaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 Truly needed indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 No, its legionary because GW finally understood CSM players want to play the legions, not renegades. Plus, can't play renegades properly because they don't have access to the loyalist SM arsenal. Don't want that mess of renegade vs legionary like loyalists with firstborn and primaris, keep that mess on your side of the fence lol. UnkyHamHam and Iron Father Ferrum 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 To me that is even more reason to split em apart though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) No, its legionary because GW finally understood CSM players want to play the legions, not renegades. Plus, can't play renegades properly because they don't have access to the loyalist SM arsenal. Don't want that mess of renegade vs legionary like loyalists with firstborn and primaris, keep that mess on your side of the fence lol. thats why Huron will have a new model? Maybe its your opinion. I would prefer Red Corsairs. But like BBF - a distinction (should not be too different) would be nice. Edited April 20, 2022 by Medjugorje BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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