Space Marines need help…

[CCE1981]

No. Main rulebook states that AP can never be reduced below 0.

That’s what I was missing. Do you know what page and paragraph#?

[CCE1981]

Storm shields are now superfluous on Captains, they are now a complete waste of points. Just give them 2+ save armor. The questions is are storm shields worth it on Vanguard and Company Veterans?

[TheNewman]

 

No. Main rulebook states that AP can never be reduced below 0.

That’s what I was missing. Do you know what page and paragraph#?

It's in the Rules Terms Glossary at the back of the book, page 364. Edited April 14, 2022 by TheNewman

[TheNewman]

Storm shields are now superfluous on Captains, they are now a complete waste of points. Just give them 2+ save armor. The questions is are storm shields worth it on Vanguard and Company Veterans?

Against anything that isn't Ap 1-2 (or Ap 2-3 for Termies), yes. AoC doesn't bump you to a 2+ against Ap - weapons, a 3+ doesn't shrug those nearly reliably enough, and there's still a lot of Ap 3+ out there.

Edited April 14, 2022 by TheNewman

[ValourousHeart]

 

Armor of Contempt is interesting. Does that mean the AP 0 becomes AP +1. So if my marine gets hit with a lasgun I get a 2+ save?

Welcome to a world where the boltgun = lasgun and a bolt rifle = equals a long range lasgun lol

 

Not quite, it just means that Marine vs Marine are going to be slug fests.  Marines vs Not Marines this is clearly a buff for marines.

[Urkh]

 

Storm shields are now superfluous on Captains, they are now a complete waste of points. Just give them 2+ save armor. The questions is are storm shields worth it on Vanguard and Company Veterans?

Against anything that isn't Ap 1-2 (or Ap 2-3 for Termies), yes. AoC doesn't bump you to a 2+ against Ap - weapons, a 3+ doesn't shrug those nearly reliably enough, and there's still a lot of Ap 3+ out there.

On the subject of the captain: the storm shield really is only useful against AP- attacks. Without a SS, AP- is a 3+sv, with one, it is a 2+sv. Ap-1 both with and without a shield is a 3+sv. Any AP higher than that gets caught on his iron halo 4++. So the question for a captain is, "is protection from AP- attacks worth 10 points?" I think my answer is to start shopping for guns.

[Dracos]

 

 

Armor of Contempt is interesting. Does that mean the AP 0 becomes AP +1. So if my marine gets hit with a lasgun I get a 2+ save?

 

Welcome to a world where the boltgun = lasgun and a bolt rifle = equals a long range lasgun lol

 

Not quite, it just means that Marine vs Marine are going to be slug fests.  Marines vs Not Marines this is clearly a buff for marines.

Obviously …

 

… given that almost all of us start this hobby with Marines or turn to them as some point.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

Armor of Contempt is interesting. Does that mean the AP 0 becomes AP +1. So if my marine gets hit with a lasgun I get a 2+ save?

Welcome to a world where the boltgun = lasgun and a bolt rifle = equals a long range lasgun lol

 

Not quite, it just means that Marine vs Marine are going to be slug fests.  Marines vs Not Marines this is clearly a buff for marines.

Obviously …

 

… given that almost all of us start this hobby with Marines or turn to them as some point.

 

Salamanders are now what the space wolf legion always thought of themself.... the emperors executioner because they clearly have rules against you. Make your lieutenent models worthless^^

[Dark Shepherd]

I reckon stormshields are still worth it for Captains especially in close combat

 

The high AP weapons tend to be the big damage dealers

 

The Black Templars biker chaplain with the Bones relic that makes him super tough is now super duper tough

[TheNewman]

I reckon stormshields are still worth it for Captains especially in close combat

 

The high AP weapons tend to be the big damage dealers

A Captain already has an invuln though, it only helps him against the Ap - stuff. You're better off with one of the armor relics if you're trying to make your Captain tougher.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

I reckon stormshields are still worth it for Captains especially in close combat

 

The high AP weapons tend to be the big damage dealers

A Captain already has an invuln though, it only helps him against the Ap - stuff. You're better off with one of the armor relics if you're trying to make your Captain tougher.

Yarrrr youre right

Lieutenants maybe

[Toldavf]

 

I reckon stormshields are still worth it for Captains especially in close combat

 

The high AP weapons tend to be the big damage dealers

A Captain already has an invuln though, it only helps him against the Ap - stuff. You're better off with one of the armor relics if you're trying to make your Captain tougher.

 

So a few models in your army don't benefit from it, hardly the end of the world. Would people honestly want to see terminators in cover getting a 2+ save vs lascannons? you even get a 3+ in the open. Work shop got rid of 3+ invuns by and large and AOC on storm shields would at least for terminator or equivalent units bring them back. 

 

If you feel you loose to much taking a SS on a captain just don't, combi-meltas are still good. As is its a way to get 2+ armour on a model that would otherwise have to buy a relic to get it. That to me is fine. 

 

At the end of the day they made the edition to lethal, just enjoy the band aid till 10th.

[Orange Knight]

Slightly off topic, but now that such significant rules and alterations are found outside of the codex or the printed supplements, I think a case for an updated book is now stronger than ever.

 

Funny enough, I'm convinced that this new AP mitigation was a rule that was going to be revealed in the next codex, but the sheer state of the meta has accelerated it's unveiling. This would be similar to how Bolter discipline appeared in an Errata before it was finalised in the codex release that followed.

[Djangomatic82]

Slightly off topic, but now that such significant rules and alterations are found outside of the codex or the printed supplements, I think a case for an updated book is now stronger than ever.

 

Funny enough, I'm convinced that this new AP mitigation was a rule that was going to be revealed in the next codex, but the sheer state of the meta has accelerated it's unveiling. This would be similar to how Bolter discipline appeared in an Errata before it was finalised in the codex release that followed.

I wouldnt be surprised at all.

BUT I almost want to start a betting pool on if, when it eventually gets launched in a new codex, that Armour of Contempt is locked to <PRIMARIS> only or whatever shiny new keyword unit GW releases alongside the codex launch.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Djangomatic82

[Lord_Ikka]

My only problem with a SM 2.0 codex is the lack of any sort of foreknowledge on when 10th ed is coming. I know, SM always get their codex soon after the new edition, but the level of general ill will towards GW if a new edition comes out, say 3 months after the 2.0 codex, will be massive and probably appropriately seen as just a cash grab. I'd like to have some sort of guarantee (won't happen, but still) that 10th ed won't come out until a year after the final 8th to 9th codex/2.0 codices. 

[Marshal Mittens]

2024 seems likely for 10e with HH 2.0 in 2022 and Warhammer the Old World in 2023?

[Aurica]

I had this discussion with several friends of mine who while are as invested in Marines as I am also plays several other factions.   They don't feel that a points drop would do much good at this point, while it would help to a certain extent it is barely sufficient to deal with the power creep from the new codex (Tau, Custodes, Harlequins and Tyranids).   Also Space Marine is too much of a cash cow for GW. and I feel that they will certainly make a SM Codex 2.0 at some point to milk us.  They did it in 7th and again in 8th.

 

That being said, here are some of the more simplistic changes I hope to see, assuming we get a SM Codex 2.0.  Otherwise, the entire game would need to be overhaul in 10th ed due to the gradual power creep.

 

 

General

• Shields (Combat/Storm) Reduce damage taken by 1 up to a minimal of 1.
• Melta Bombs also work on MONSTERS

 

Vehicles

• Decrease points for ALL marine vehicles by 10-20%
• Add vehicle upgrade options like what Aeldari get
  • Command Uplink (10 Points) Grants the Unit Core Keyword
  • Ablative Armor (10 Points) Reduce Damage taken by 1 up to a minimal of 1 (only for tanks)
• Strategems: Reactive Armor - Ignore first damage taken in the battle round for Vehicles (1 CP)
• Strategems: Tank Shock, Roll number of dice = to attack characteristics of the vehicle, on 4+, it deals 1 MW to the unit that it has come to contact with. (1 CP)

 

Infantry

 

• Drop Tacticals/Devastators/Assault Marines to 16 PPM
• Drop Intercessors to 18 PPM
• Drop Scouts to 13 PPM
• Change Scouts from Elites to Troops but limit Scouts to 1 for every other unit that are troops. 
• Add Melta Bomb Keyword to Scouts, Rievers, Incursors, Infiltrators

 

SUPER DOCTRINES

 

Ultramarines

• Allow Scions of Gulliman to work even if units have just disembark from the transport. (Count as if unit had remain stationary)
• In addition to Scions of Guilliman, add while Tactical Doctrine is active, units gain 6+ FNP while on an objective marker
• Add During Devastator Doctrine, +1 to hit for all HEAVY WEAPONS
• Add During Assault Doctrine, Wound 6 for pistol, melee weapons deal additional 1 damage.

 

Imperial Fist

• Rework Legacy of Dorn - on a wound roll of 6, deals 1 extra damage to Vehicles/Buildings.  Heavy Weapons also deal 1 extra MW on a wound roll of 6 vs Vehicles/Buildings
• In addition to Legacy of Dorn, add while Devastator Doctrine is active,+1 to all armor saves
• Add while Tactical Doctrine is active, +1 to number of shots with bolt weapons (Pistol 1 becomes Pistol 2, Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 etc)
• Add while Assault Doctrine is active, treat all bolt weapons as pistol type if unit is in engagement range of enemy models.

 

Iron Hands

• In addition Calculated Fury, Add while Devastator Doctrine is active, Reduce damage taken by vehicles by 1 up to a minimal of 1
• Add while Tactical Doctrine is active, Gain Fire Discipline - All Rapid Fire weapons also gains the benefit of Bolter Discipline
• Add while Assault Doctrine is active, Units gain 1 extra attack while within range of an objective marker

 

Salamanders

• Add while Devastator Doctrine is active, units gain 6+FNP
• In addition to Promethean Cult - Add while Tactical Doctrine is active, +3" to the range of Flamers and all flamer weapons deal an extra 2 hits
• Add while in Assault Doctrine, Flamer weapons count as Pistol Type if units are within engagement range of enemy models, wound rolls of 6 also deals an extra 1 dmg.

 

 

Ravenguard

• Add while Devastator Doctrine is active, wound rolls of 6 increase AP of the attack by extra -1, increase range of all weapons by 3"
• In addition to Surgical Strikes, add while Tactical Doctrine is active, Rapid Fire weapons deal 1 extra damage on a wound roll of 6
• Add while Assault Doctrine is active, add 1 extra attack for melee and pistol weapons if the target is a character unit.

 

White Scars

• Add while Devastator Doctrine is active, Advance results can be rerolled
• Add while Tactical Doctrine is active, Add 1 to the number of attacks for Assault weapons. 

 

Blood Angels

• Add while Devastator Doctrine is active, enemy units suffer -1 to roll hit in their subsequent round if they taken damage.
• Add while Tactical Doctrine is active, units may disembark from their vehicles even if it has moved but may not move or advance. 
• Add while Tactical Doctrine is active, enemy units suffer -1 to hit with ranged attacks  in their subsequent round against units that has advanced.

[Blindhamster]

Why should all the blood angel stuff be negative? :/

[Closet Skeleton]

More bespoke subfaction rules are totally not the way the game needs to go. A few flavour stratagems are okay but subfactions just give a hard to balance game even more complicated issues.

 

If anything all super doctrines should just go, special characters and chapter tactics should be it.

 

 

It will benefit chapters that are already strong, such as the Dark Angels and Black Templars, and might help them to reach a higher standing in the meta.

Most other chapters are still going to fare very poorly. Imperial Fists aren't going to win the Las Vegas open because of this lol. Unfortunately all the vehicles are still very poor.

 

Dark Angels might remain the best Marine supplement but Black Templars are not in a 'strong gets stronger' position at all with regards to Uphold the Honour of the Emperor.

 

Ignore cover on everything Imperial Fists will have a massive advantage if we go to a marine heavy meta LOL. Learn to win with a faction before you bad mouth them. Gonna have to take a Chaplain for the mortal wound save prayer but then we're joining the toughest armies in the game.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Storm shields are now superfluous on Captains, they are now a complete waste of points. Just give them 2+ save armor. The questions is are storm shields worth it on Vanguard and Company Veterans?

 

 

 

 

Yeah I think they're still worth it. Marines and sisters have access to a ton of ap -3 & -4. 

 

I think the bigger question will be if lightning claws going to be as good. Ap -2 and rerolls was a really great package, but now a lot of units reduce AP, and certain fractions don't allow wound re-rolls.    

 

Slightly off topic, but now that such significant rules and alterations are found outside of the codex or the printed supplements, I think a case for an updated book is now stronger than ever.

 

Funny enough, I'm convinced that this new AP mitigation was a rule that was going to be revealed in the next codex, but the sheer state of the meta has accelerated it's unveiling. This would be similar to how Bolter discipline appeared in an Errata before it was finalised in the codex release that followed.

 

Yeah, it's either part of the new books, or they designed the chaos book with the current marine book in mind. Sorta like space wolves in 8th who were in rough spot because their codex was clearly designed with the other chapters, and were underpowered at release because of creep.

 

It'll be interesting to see what we get if anything.

[TheNewman]

I think the bigger question will be if lightning claws going to be as good. Ap -2 and rerolls was a really great package, but now a lot of units reduce AP, and certain fractions don't allow wound re-rolls.

That's a good point, twin Claws are now less effective into Salamanders than a single Power Sword.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Slightly off topic, but now that such significant rules and alterations are found outside of the codex or the printed supplements, I think a case for an updated book is now stronger than ever.

 

Funny enough, I'm convinced that this new AP mitigation was a rule that was going to be revealed in the next codex, but the sheer state of the meta has accelerated it's unveiling. This would be similar to how Bolter discipline appeared in an Errata before it was finalised in the codex release that followed.

I agree it could be taken that way, but I really see it more as a design flaw of the current system. They should be able to update the power armor rules just by updating the equipment profile.

 

This gets even worse if one considers Chaos Space Marines. If their codex does not include these changes in print, then by this metric they deserve a second codex even if only months later.

 

That they have to wait until their model release over 2 years into the edition becomes fully inexcusable at that point. They needed to have a codex at launch, and then get a redo when their model range matched.

Edited April 17, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

AP3 is basically the cutout point now for shooting. Melee AP2 is still decent since no cover save.

[Dracos]

Gravis armor + Unyielding in the Face of the Foe for a nice little bit of durability.

 

So many things like this should just be made automatic part of the data sheet for the unit.

[Orange Knight]

I've realised that with the new rule in place, the only truly good "vanilla" psychic power - "Psychic Fortress" is now very niche and situational.

 

I'll be dropping Librarians completely from any list I use in future. Of course some specific chapters still have effective and compelling psychic powers.