10th edition wishlisting/"How do we fix this mess?" thread

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

Praise Khorne.

Does this mean the 9th edition codices will be invalidated ?

[Scribe]

40 minutes ago, Toldavf said:

Once the role rules are established dont let any army break them. 

That lasts for a few books at best. Every time.

[ThePenitentOne]

10 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Let me put it this way.

if I didn’t have an emotional and previous financial investment into this game, and if I was coming into it fresh in 9th, I’d be extremely put off from this game, being told there’s been major rules changes between my first and second game, and then again between my third and fourth, etc.

You know you better than I know you, but sometimes I think that the emotional and financial investments in previous editions of the game actually make it harder to enjoy 9th.

I personally find 25-50PL Crusade to pretty much be the coolest 40k I've ever played. I think a lot of people have a preconceived idea that somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1500-2k points is the way the game is meant be played. A new player will paint the models in the starter box and play a 10-25 PL game against a friend. The only rules that will exist for them are the rules for the 4-5 units in the box; they'll use their favourite 5 strats and won't waste a second thinking about the other 25. And with so few models, they'll probably play Crusade, because when you own only the models in the starter box, Crusade's progression system keeps games interesting and improves replay. They can slowly add units over time as they get painted, and for them, the escalation aspect of the game will feel like magic.

As opposed to "I can't use the exact same 2K army I've been using for two decades because Chaos and Jump Packs, therefore this is the worst game ever!"

Now let me dial that back a little: the disregard for long established patterns of army composition IS a legitimate basis for complaint, and in no way am I trying to say that people are playing wrong, or call out any particular frater. I just think a lot of us might let our attachments get in the way of seeing features with open eyes.

New players wade in with wide-eyed wonder; they don't approach the game as if they need to memorize every strat for every faction before they can play, and their cognitive load is minimized by how few models they have.

 

[Scribe]

41 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I think a lot of people have a preconceived idea that somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1500-2k points is the way the game is meant be played.

I believe you couldnt understate this any more than you have.

I'd argue that for the vast majority, it is not a perception of how its meant to be played, it is actually how it's balanced to be played, intended to be played, and is played.

For the invested player, the one on forums like this, or the ones watching battle reports on youtube, and playing in tournaments, that structured matched play?

Its the only game.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Scribe

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He’s only played a few games so no telling how much time transpired between them. I play in a league with over a hundred players - I’ve literally never heard anyone complain to the point I’ve seen here and the Nephelim GT pack was welcomed with open arms. Seems like their is a vocal minority.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentOne said:

You know you better than I know you, but sometimes I think that the emotional and financial investments in previous editions of the game actually make it harder to enjoy 9th.

I personally find 25-50PL Crusade to pretty much be the coolest 40k I've ever played. I think a lot of people have a preconceived idea that somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1500-2k points is the way the game is meant be played. A new player will paint the models in the starter box and play a 10-25 PL game against a friend. The only rules that will exist for them are the rules for the 4-5 units in the box; they'll use their favourite 5 strats and won't waste a second thinking about the other 25. And with so few models, they'll probably play Crusade, because when you own only the models in the starter box, Crusade's progression system keeps games interesting and improves replay. They can slowly add units over time as they get painted, and for them, the escalation aspect of the game will feel like magic.

As opposed to "I can't use the exact same 2K army I've been using for two decades because Chaos and Jump Packs, therefore this is the worst game ever!"

Now let me dial that back a little: the disregard for long established patterns of army composition IS a legitimate basis for complaint, and in no way am I trying to say that people are playing wrong, or call out any particular frater. I just think a lot of us might let our attachments get in the way of seeing features with open eyes.

New players wade in with wide-eyed wonder; they don't approach the game as if they need to memorize every strat for every faction before they can play, and their cognitive load is minimized by how few models they have.

 

I mean that if i didn’t already have several hundred dollars worth of plastic for each army i wouldn’t have had any reason to try more than 2 games lol

[Slave to Darkness]

11 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

What really kills me in this thread is how mythical 10th edition will be… like suddenly geedub will fix everything for everybody. Yeah sure and I for one can’t wait.

As soon as anyone says how great the next edition will be my brain shuts off, as soon as GW staff tell me how good the new (I guess current at the time of release) edition  will be/is I just think they are liars and it turns out to be true after a few hours. I dont have high hopes for 10th edition, like previous editions they will give with one hand and take away with another. Then when thats done they will stick their ass into the mix and jiggle it all about with stupid stuff like CP's and Strats that no one asked for. 

 

And we will pay for it, like we always do, and download the pdf's and keep the circle going. Then in another 3 years we will do it all over again. 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Remember when you had to wait until the next edition for them to address known issues with the rules?

[Redcomet]

31 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

As soon as anyone says how great the next edition will be my brain shuts off, as soon as GW staff tell me how good the new (I guess current at the time of release) edition  will be/is I just think they are liars and it turns out to be true after a few hours. I dont have high hopes for 10th edition, like previous editions they will give with one hand and take away with another. Then when thats done they will stick their ass into the mix and jiggle it all about with stupid stuff like CP's and Strats that no one asked for. 

 

And we will pay for it, like we always do, and download the pdf's and keep the circle going. Then in another 3 years we will do it all over again. 

 

Then leave the gaming side of the hobby. Or use another ruleset. Doing something that makes you unhappy and angry seems pointless when you can choose not to.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What he said is true and the sooner people realize it the better.

[Ahzek451]

It took 10 editions, but the only thing I plan on changing is not investing in collecting all the army books. It's just too costly anymore. I should have done it sooner but it's a habit I developed early on in the hobby since 3rd. The other factor in this, is that codex books have featured less lore elements than previous editions. I miss having individual pages and lengthy descriptions for units to read up on. 

It is true that anything we have now is better than what we had before. I recall waiting years for a fix for the next edition(no faq). But I'm not expecting anything more than the same pattern of limited resources in playtesting. 

[Lexington]

12 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

A reset will cause much grumbling in the last few codexs groups, even the squats

True, but I'd guess that if they do another hard reset with 10th it'll be because GW thinks it's a necessity. People are walking away from 40K again, and while I doubt things are dire in the sense that they were during the dark days of 6th and 7th Edition, engagement has almost certainly dipped significantly from what it had been back in the beginning of 9th. All I hear about the rules anymore are complaints, almost all of them are the same ones you see here. Worse for GW, the immense complexity of the Codexes is a real barrier to entry for new players, and it's not like people are starved for game choices these days. With investments in Warhammer+, apps and other initiatives not paying off as hoped, GW needs their core business to grow. Making their biggest game something people - especially new players - want to get in on again is probably a very real goal on their part these days.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Lexington

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They have too much invested in ninth for a complete reset. It’s like a hipster term now .

[Lexington]

17 minutes ago, Black Blow Fly said:

They have too much invested in ninth for a complete reset. It’s like a hipster term now .

Eh, they had twenty years of continuous development and a fandom raised almost entirely on the 3rd - 7th system, but 8th happened anyway. I wouldn't guess this lives outside the scope of possibilities by any means.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

7th was a garbage fire.

[Orange Knight]

2 minutes ago, Black Blow Fly said:

7th was a garbage fire.

And yet the Horus Heresy, which uses 7th edition as a basis for it's rules, is currently far more fun and enjoyable than 9th.

The core rules of 9th aren't the issue, but all the design decisions for everything built around it are questionable. 

Because GW have designed all codex books in this edition around the stratagems,  and around the tedious mission design, and because they have bolted on so many rules and fixes, the whole thing has become a hot mess.

Unfortunately if 10th is only a mild update, if means that all the existing codex books, with their emphasis on stratagems, will still be functional in it. Too many units have been gutted, with their special rules being moved to stratagem. Heck, a vehicle using smoke is now a strat! It's so stupid.

If we want significant changes they need to tear the whole thing down. I don't know if Index books are the solution, or free digital rules in the interim before codex books are released, but it has to be done.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

since i wasn't around for the transition from 7th to 8th, was there any hint at the upcoming changes of the hard reset in the codexes released later?  if so, I guess we could always look at the VoT, guard and WE dexes that come out.

Then again, at this point a new edition coming 'soon' is also just a rumor.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

HH is SM 24-7 that is the main reason it worked okay for seventh edition rules.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Unfortunately if 10th is only a mild update, if means that all the existing codex books, with their emphasis on stratagems, will still be functional in it. Too many units have been gutted, with their special rules being moved to stratagem. Heck, a vehicle using smoke is now a strat! It's so stupid.

If we want significant changes they need to tear the whole thing down. I don't know if Index books are the solution, or free digital rules in the interim before codex books are released, but it has to be done.

From your key's to God's ears.

I want to be able to engage with the game again.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Black Blow Fly said:

HH is SM 24-7 that is the main reason it worked okay for seventh edition rules.

Kind of. But it makes my point. Within certain circumstances any edition can be good or bad.

People have rightly said that the core of 9th isn't bad. The problem is everything else around it. An edition is more than just core rules. It also encompasses all the codex books and the mission design, and the ethos behind what GW is/was pursuing in theory. 

9th is a bloated mess. The missions aren't fun for pick up or casual games. The fast, ever-shifting meta causes more grief and frustration at this point than excitement. And despite the fact that GW are clearly focused on the game in the tournament setting, it continues to be a balance disaster. Point me at the guy who won a major tournament in the last 12 months with 3 Landraiders in his list loyal Marine list. How about 1 Landraider? Certain units are garbage, and have been garbage for years and GW is not doing anything to address the issue despite releasing point adjustments on a regular basis.

We've now reached the point where FAQs are being dropped that simply un-do FAQs thar were released prior.

If 10th is simply an update of 9th it doesn't solve a major problem. Stratagems have become a "Gotcha" mechanic. Again, balance is a big problem here, but so was the decision to remove unit special rules so that they can instead be converted to stratagems. This is the exact kind issue that can't be fixed gradually. 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of people actually like the missions. It’s not nearly as bloated as 7th edition not even close. You’re entitled to your opinion sure. A lot of what you say is just silly like landraiders… are you playing to some group ?

Personally I have absolutely no desire to play HH -> dreadnaughts are super OP, seize the initiative is back, templates, scatter dice, armor facings… UGHHHHHH !! Oh and overwatch on full ballistic skill. What were they thinking ??

Edited September 16, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[Orange Knight]

It's actually more bloated now. There are now more rules, more phases, more interactions, more objectives, etc 

The core rules are more streamlined. The rest of the game isn't.

7th was a mess too, I'm not saying it was good lol.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

7th edition had pages and pages of USRs many which nobody would even use… the debacle of witch fire… D weapons, etc. The special formations. Its not a pretty picture.

Here’s the thing you just assume geedub can whip up some totally reset edition that solves “all your problems with the game”. What if they don’t though? I mean according to you they blown it at least two out of three of the last editions. Seriously think about it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Kind of. But it makes my point. Within certain circumstances any edition can be good or bad.

People have rightly said that the core of 9th isn't bad. The problem is everything else around it. An edition is more than just core rules. It also encompasses all the codex books and the mission design, and the ethos behind what GW is/was pursuing in theory. 

9th is a bloated mess. The missions aren't fun for pick up or casual games. The fast, ever-shifting meta causes more grief and frustration at this point than excitement. And despite the fact that GW are clearly focused on the game in the tournament setting, it continues to be a balance disaster. Point me at the guy who won a major tournament in the last 12 months with 3 Landraiders in his list loyal Marine list. How about 1 Landraider? Certain units are garbage, and have been garbage for years and GW is not doing anything to address the issue despite releasing point adjustments on a regular basis.

We've now reached the point where FAQs are being dropped that simply un-do FAQs thar were released prior.

If 10th is simply an update of 9th it doesn't solve a major problem. Stratagems have become a "Gotcha" mechanic. Again, balance is a big problem here, but so was the decision to remove unit special rules so that they can instead be converted to stratagems. This is the exact kind issue that can't be fixed gradually. 

 

They can make it an update of 9th and still solve the strat issue…

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Exactly.