10th edition wishlisting/"How do we fix this mess?" thread

[Orange Knight]

36 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They can make it an update of 9th and still solve the strat issue…

 

But they would have to scrap every codex and release a new one. It's not going to happen unless the core rules themselves call for it.

[gaurdian31]

10 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

But they would have to scrap every codex and release a new one. It's not going to happen unless the core rules themselves call for it.

So what they do every edition now?

[Evil Eye]

My issue with the bloat is that 8th and 9th started out as a simpler, streamlined ruleset but got bloated progressively to the point it was just as unwieldy as 7th, but without the fun flavour options 7th had. I feel that 10th needs to pick a direction and stick to it. Either go easier/quicker/lighter rules and keep them so, or design them a bit more complex/in-depth to begin with but make it clear from the outset it's a more intricate/simulationist experience, and stick to their guns with it.

I've mentioned before having "Basic" and "Advanced" 40K but alas the weird state of the wargaming scene where any kind of individual tailored experience is verboten because of this incessant need to have a universal/"one true way" of playing. Now personally I feel like this just results in the following-

(I miss xkcd being good)

But if we must have a single "unified" system it HAS to make its mind up as to whether it's going to be simple or complex. You can't have one system that makes everyone happy, because an attempt to appeal to everyone will please no-one.

Myself I'd prefer they made 10th more in-depth at its root and just made sure it worked. Complex =/= bad after all and if it's too complex for some people then that's OK- there are other simpler wargames out there (AOS actually does a very good job of being evocative but simple) and no hobby is for everyone. But GW needs to pick an audience for 40K, because trying to get one system to appeal to every single player is impossible.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

But they would have to scrap every codex and release a new one. It's not going to happen unless the core rules themselves call for it.

...i mean i'm pretty sure their goal is to have new codexes for every faction every edition...so not seeing where that's an issue...

factions with only 1 codex 6-8 strats only.
factions with subfaction codexes 4-5 strats, subfactions 2-3 specific strats. seems like that would help solve the strat issue. especially if the goal was not to make any of them so strong as to regularly be what makes or breaks a game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They just can’t keep starting over from scratch each time. I think it’s obvious the audience they’ve chosen tbh.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

They just can’t keep starting over from scratch each time. I think it’s obvious the audience they’ve chosen tbh.

Not obvious to me.

seems like they ‘streamlined’ rules to make it more appealing to younger and new players, but they couldn’t help but to try and cater to the tournament power players…and long time casuals get left in the dust completely 

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

They just can’t keep starting over from scratch each time. I think it’s obvious the audience they’ve chosen tbh.

No need to start from scratch, they have better rule sets at hand, and in the past.

[Wulf Vengis]

They should finish getting 9th out the door then spend one or two years doing a limited print/run release of 2nd or some other "classic" edition of 40k. Label it as Warhammer 40,000 classic or some such.* While that's going on actually get 10th edition up to a releasable state with as many codecies and rules interactions tested as possible then make a big 10th edition release. Rulebook and most if not all codecies ready day one. From there they can drop any expansions/updates/faqs/etc they want when they're ready.

Don't know about anyone else but i wouldn't mind some old releases while i wait.

 

* These re-releases would be marked as such to keep from upsetting the values of the original printings of whatever edition they choose to put out there.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Wulf Vengis

[Evil Eye]

17 minutes ago, Wulf Vengis said:

* These re-releases would be marked as such to keep from upsetting the values of the original printings of whatever edition they choose to put out there.

I would actually disagree, as half the point of reissues is to increase supply to meet demand and thus drive down aftermarket costs. The only people that benefit from rare books remaining rare and "holding value" are hoarders who buy up the supplies to sell for inflated fees later, and anything that screws over people like that is good. Same reason I'd rather they made old sculpts available by subcontractors on a permanent MTO basis; ending the scarcity of OOP minis, thus deflating "oldhammer tax" and utterly undermining scumbags lik a certain eBay scalper (you probably know the one). I'd genuinely rather GW made some kind of profit off the return of old minis/books than people were held to ransom paying stupid prices on models because some piece of work bought up the entire supply.

That said, I'd absolutely be down for 3rd edition to be rereleased in some capacity. I actually have the old rulebook and two 'dexes, and mercifully the supplements are quite plentiful, but the books I have are a bit knackered!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

50 minutes ago, Wulf Vengis said:

They should finish getting 9th out the door then spend one or two years doing a limited print/run release of 2nd or some other "classic" edition of 40k. Label it as Warhammer 40,000 classic or some such.* While that's going on actually get 10th edition up to a releasable state with as many codecies and rules interactions tested as possible then make a big 10th edition release. Rulebook and most if not all codecies ready day one. From there they can drop any expansions/updates/faqs/etc they want when they're ready.

Don't know about anyone else but i wouldn't mind some old releases while i wait.

 

* These re-releases would be marked as such to keep from upsetting the values of the original printings of whatever edition they choose to put out there.

GW releasing more than 4 codexes in the first 6 months of the edition is a pipe dream, let alone all more or less upon release.

[Orange Knight]

But that's not to say they can't do things better. 

The entire Astartes range could be 2 books. One for basic units, and another for the Chapter Specific options. We don't need 8 supplements released over 2 years.

The whole codex cycle could be streamlined and improved.

[Redcomet]

7 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

But that's not to say they can't do things better. 

The entire Astartes range could be 2 books. One for basic units, and another for the Chapter Specific options. We don't need 8 supplements released over 2 years.

The whole codex cycle could be streamlined and improved.

I think they should split the rules parts from the rest. Rules go out in a free pdf, updated every 6 months.

They then make a big book full of lore, art and hobby content. A basic one always available and a lavish one made to order a couple of times a year. One for each army. 
 

Campaign books would have a mix of new rules and lore. With the army pdf updated with the new stuff in the next update window. Would be here new units and new models would get put in first.

The current rules take up so much space that the lore and hobby sections have become anemic.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Redcomet

[Slave to Darkness]

10 hours ago, Wulf Vengis said:

They should finish getting 9th out the door then spend one or two years doing a limited print/run release of 2nd or some other "classic" edition of 40k.

They did re release Rogue Trader and the first Realms of Chaos books a few years ago so it wouldnt be a totally weird move. If they did 2nd ed what would they do with the minis? Do they even have the molds from back then or would they be long gone? 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

But that's not to say they can't do things better. 

The entire Astartes range could be 2 books. One for basic units, and another for the Chapter Specific options. We don't need 8 supplements released over 2 years.

The whole codex cycle could be streamlined and improved.

We don’t need that, but they want it.

they get more money that way.

this isn’t the GW of the 90s and 00s.

they don’t care about us having fun, they don’t care about us doing cool and interesting things with the game without them. They only care about making money now.

[Emperor Ming]

Go Capitalism!

[The Emperors Champion22]

The game isnt that bloated, you guys probably just play too many armies. Just pick one army and one list, and play that with minimal changes.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, The Emperors Champion22 said:

The game isnt that bloated, you guys probably just play too many armies. Just pick one army and one list, and play that with minimal changes.

Yeah, you’re probably right the one guy saying there’s no bloat is definitely correct and there’s no larger over arching issue with bloat.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Evil Eye]

3 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Go Capitalism!

I mean GW wanting to make money isn't the issue (I could go on an essay-tier rant about how nationalized/state owned industries absolutely suck but this is not the place!), the issue is that they're willing to make money at the expense of their customers and that it's not actually sustainable. I'd argue the big problem is that the company is publicly traded; investors demanding ever-higher growth/profit are probably far more to blame for GW's shortcomings than GW itself.

[Slave to Darkness]

1 minute ago, Evil Eye said:

I mean GW wanting to make money isn't the issue (I could go on an essay-tier rant about how nationalized/state owned industries absolutely suck but this is not the place!), the issue is that they're willing to make money at the expense of their customers and that it's not actually sustainable. I'd argue the big problem is that the company is publicly traded; investors demanding ever-higher growth/profit are probably far more to blame for GW's shortcomings than GW itself.

Well Blackrock is the 4th highest investor according to google. They aint exactly perfect. 

[Slave to Darkness]

1 hour ago, The Emperors Champion22 said:

The game isnt that bloated, you guys probably just play too many armies. Just pick one army and one list, and play that with minimal changes.

Until GW nerfs tasty units and the tourny crowd and other hardcore gamers have to drop a ton of cash to stay competitive. Again.

 

Not exactly good business practice when your trynna drag in the next generation of gamers who have to rely on parents money in a time where people cant afford to blow money on luxury items. Younglings always love the new hot unit. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I mean GW wanting to make money isn't the issue (I could go on an essay-tier rant about how nationalized/state owned industries absolutely suck but this is not the place!), the issue is that they're willing to make money at the expense of their customers and that it's not actually sustainable. I'd argue the big problem is that the company is publicly traded; investors demanding ever-higher growth/profit are probably far more to blame for GW's shortcomings than GW itself.

Welcome to capitalism where they get to screw over their customers at their own peril, thus screwing over their employees and their families when they have to down size or straight up go out of business.

unrestrained capitalism is a disaster, communism is a disaster.

capitalism with checks and balances is very important.

[Slave to Darkness]

Ahh yes balance.

 

 

 But the pros and cons of capitalism and communism (or any mention of such things in general) is gonna take us way off topic and if one person champions one five more will speak out against them. A lot of Frater I have had on FB over the years and seeing posts they have made there I dont wanna see a war here, it would make the femmarines argument look like 'my dads bigger than your dad'.

So Mr Negative is gonna try and save the thread... so who wants templates back?? By the gods gimme templates and scatter dice back, or instead of scatter dice go back to a clock face template they used in 1st ed. Place template over unit, roll D12 and the template is marked 1-12 obviously, the template itself shows what direction the template moves, immersion and no childish arguments over where the dice is pointing. Actually I may have a 500 point solo game seeing if that would work in 9th.

[ThePenitentOne]

1 hour ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Not exactly good business practice when your trynna drag in the next generation of gamers who have to rely on parents money in a time where people cant afford to blow money on luxury items. Younglings always love the new hot unit. 

I've said this in another thread somewhere... But one of the things that we should try to keep in mind as we judge this version of the game is that for most of us, our view points are biased by the fact that we've been playing since Jesus was a cowboy.

No new player is starting with a 2k army, and no new player is under the illusion that the have to memorize EVERY rule in EVERY dex before they can play. On the contrary, the vast majority of new players will whip a PL list in 30 seconds and throw down the four units in the starter box in all their grey glory, and that's why they'll have a great time.

Us longbeards that want to drop down the exact same lovingly painted and converted 2k army that we've been using for the past four editions without any need to swap the heavies and specials? Not so much. 

 

[Slave to Darkness]

2 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

 

Us longbeards that want to drop down the exact same lovingly painted and converted 2k army that we've been using for the past four editions without any need to swap the heavies and specials? Not so much. 

 

I dont know, I already have 2 historical themed Guard army and Im now building my third lol. Also got a load of Vikings (doubling up as Fenrisian natives and Khornate cultists) and some Normans (my homebrew chapter is from a Medieval world) for a 1st ed narrative campaign. Mind you Im just one person, I dont claim to speak for everybody. 

 

Ngl staring at all these sprues, slightly overwhelmed with what I am about to undertake... Feeling pressured to paint messed with my mental health, the ETL where Chaos came second really messed me up, if I didnt fail my last vow negating my earlier ones we would have won. I took that personally and felt like I let everybody down. Tbh I still do. 

[KnightofSigismund]

17 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I've said this in another thread somewhere... But one of the things that we should try to keep in mind as we judge this version of the game is that for most of us, our view points are biased by the fact that we've been playing since Jesus was a cowboy.

No new player is starting with a 2k army, and no new player is under the illusion that the have to memorize EVERY rule in EVERY dex before they can play. On the contrary, the vast majority of new players will whip a PL list in 30 seconds and throw down the four units in the starter box in all their grey glory, and that's why they'll have a great time.

Us longbeards that want to drop down the exact same lovingly painted and converted 2k army that we've been using for the past four editions without any need to swap the heavies and specials? Not so much. 

 

Dang, well you’ve kind of given me an epiphany. I think in my case your correct for sure.