10th edition wishlisting/"How do we fix this mess?" thread

[Cpt_Reaper]

I played a local 2k tournament w few weeks ago. For context I came 61st out of 75 players and I ran a "firstborn demi company" as a Dark Angels Successor without using Inheritors of the Primarch. I had an absolute blast, with the only thing that had me having less than 100% fun was playing against Custodes, but a firstborn demi-company will never beat a tournament spec Custodes force so that was on me for taking a fun list. At the end of the weekend one thing was made abundantly clear to me:

9th edition is not the dumpster fire that people repeatedly try to "prove" it is. This entire thread keeps bringing me back to read though it, and doing so is negatively affecting my enjoyment of 40k. I no longer wish to take part in discourse about the game, I will just keep enjoying the game and hoping that 10th is only a improvement on 9th and nothing else.

[Redcomet]

16 hours ago, Slave to Darkness said:

2nd edition. Oohhh just think of ALL of those templates!!!! 

And the janky cc rules

[Slave to Darkness]

37 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

And the janky cc rules

Well GW cant do everything right lol. If they could we would still be playing an old edition and we wouldnt be talking about it here. The CC rules were not the strongest part of 2nd admittedly. 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, sarabando said:

honestly i think a push for smaller games (points wise) would do the game a world of good. The size of games i see played just dont fit a 28/32mm scale of mini, so the tables are packed and theres very little movement or terrain. Thats just me personally i know if we shrunk down the even 15mm it would just mean games would go from 2k to 6k and it would be the same problem. 

 

but the biggest thing i think would help 40k is a bigger focus on non imperial armies on all fronts. 

I think game sizes aren’t that big of an issue. The shrinking of table sizes is why it feels cramped.

go back to 6’x4’ and a 2k point game won’t feel cramped (unless you’re running a pure infantry style guard army or something similar.)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I played a local 2k tournament w few weeks ago. For context I came 61st out of 75 players and I ran a "firstborn demi company" as a Dark Angels Successor without using Inheritors of the Primarch. I had an absolute blast, with the only thing that had me having less than 100% fun was playing against Custodes, but a firstborn demi-company will never beat a tournament spec Custodes force so that was on me for taking a fun list. At the end of the weekend one thing was made abundantly clear to me:

9th edition is not the dumpster fire that people repeatedly try to "prove" it is. This entire thread keeps bringing me back to read though it, and doing so is negatively affecting my enjoyment of 40k. I no longer wish to take part in discourse about the game, I will just keep enjoying the game and hoping that 10th is only a improvement on 9th and nothing else.

It’s fine if you enjoy this edition, but saying “I like it therefore there’s no issue” is asinine.

this forum seems to generally agree there’s an issue, having players from across the US, and across the world for that matter agreeing they think there’s problems.

from my limited experience interacting with people in the hobby irl it’s a consensus that’s shared offline as well, with one of the most common complaints being how much accounting a player has to do throughout game, before, and during the game.

[Slave to Darkness]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It’s fine if you enjoy this edition, but saying “I like it therefore there’s no issue” is asinine.

 

[Scribe]

Besides, 'enjoyment' has nothing to do with changes to improve things, and yes that can mean the removal of aspects of a game, if it will improve the whole.

[Sothalor]

12 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

Back then you had to wait until the next edition for geedub to address any glaring issues in an existing editions and they had their share… rose tinted glasses.

How is this an indictment upon the fundamental rules framework and mechanics of any given game edition, though?

What you're talking about here has to do with corporate practice and approaches to issues like systems engagement. There's nothing that logically or intrinsically dictates "5th Edition style rules MUST mean lack of updates" and "9th Edition style rules MUST mean frequent updates".

The underlying design of a structure and how often you choose to refine/revisit that design are different things.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

People say they don’t like rules bloat - which is in part due to things like FAQs and the dataslate. If you have their app the rules are updated there which helps to reduce "bloat". I prefer they update the rules in a timely manner rather than taking years to address something obvious… it’s all interrelated as far as I’m concerned.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

Besides, 'enjoyment' has nothing to do with changes to improve things, and yes that can mean the removal of aspects of a game, if it will improve the whole.

If you enjoy something chances are you don’t think there need to be any major changes.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 minutes ago, Black Blow Fly said:

People say they don’t like rules bloat - which is in part due to things like FAQs and the dataslate. If you have their app the rules are updated there which helps to reduce "bloat". I prefer they update the rules in a timely manner rather than taking years to address something obvious… it’s all interrelated as far as I’m concerned.

I think a semi-annual update model would be the nice medium that would make the most people the most happy.

 

that way we’re not being bombarded by changes/updates every other month, but also one super OP broken faction isn’t roflstomping everyone else at tournaments for a whole edition.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If you enjoy something chances are you don’t think there need to be any major changes.

I'm plenty critical of things I enjoy. Very few things are perfect. ;)

[Slave to Darkness]

39 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I'm plenty critical of things I enjoy. Very few things are perfect. ;)

Sanguinius is though. I may be a filthy heretic but damn hes a mighty fine Primarch. 

[DesuVult]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If you enjoy something chances are you don’t think there need to be any major changes.

I disagree.  Many people are most critical of what they enjoy the most.  In other GW games there are numerous highly contentious mechanics within the communities but those systems are beloved by their communities all the same.  Ask Bolt Action Germany players about their rules like Tiger Fear and how they would change their army in relation to others, such as Soviets.  Battletech players may claim they like how the game has stayed the same but watch how often they use variant or even homebrew rules and do so very selectively. 

 

Vocal opponents are often also vocal supporters in hobbies.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, DesuVult said:

I disagree.  Many people are most critical of what they enjoy the most.  In other GW games there are numerous highly contentious mechanics within the communities but those systems are beloved by their communities all the same.  Ask Bolt Action Germany players about their rules like Tiger Fear and how they would change their army in relation to others, such as Soviets.  Battletech players may claim they like how the game has stayed the same but watch how often they use variant or even homebrew rules and do so very selectively. 

 

Vocal opponents are often also vocal supporters in hobbies.

I’m not saying that people who enjoy something are blind to it’s faults, but if you enjoy something clearly you don’t think there’s anything too horribly wrong with it.

I prefer gen 1&2 of pokemon. Do I see faults in the games/remakes? Yes, do I think they were horrible and required major changes? No. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It’s fine if you enjoy this edition, but saying “I like it therefore there’s no issue” is asinine.

this forum seems to generally agree there’s an issue, having players from across the US, and across the world for that matter agreeing they think there’s problems.

from my limited experience interacting with people in the hobby irl it’s a consensus that’s shared offline as well, with one of the most common complaints being how much accounting a player has to do throughout game, before, and during the game.

It's fine you dislike this edition, but saying "I hate it therefore it is broken beyond salvage" is equally asinine.

I honestly don't care if the entire forum agreed there's an issue. I care even less where they are from. Because saying, repeatedly, on a forum that "in their experience" the game is broken and crying for a return to the past has no more merit than when I say that in my experience when I step away from the overwhelming negativity that the online 40k space has become and I just play the game it is fun, it is not book keeping or rules bloat or too lethal or too big or too small or whatever the complaint of the week is.

I wish I could stop coming back to this accursed thread. The title being "How do we fix this mess" should be enough to tell me I want no part in the discussion. The only thing draining my enjoyment out of 40k - the hobby and the gaming side - is constantly seeing the online space claiming that 9th is broken beyond repair and there is nothing redeemable about it. But I keep coming back, keep trying to defend the game that has brought me so much joy.

40k won't break me. The community will.

[Special Officer Doofy]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I think game sizes aren’t that big of an issue. The shrinking of table sizes is why it feels cramped.

go back to 6’x4’ and a 2k point game won’t feel cramped (unless you’re running a pure infantry style guard army or something similar.)

This. I won't play games under 2,000 points unless it's with a new(er) person learning it or they don't have 2,000 points yet. Otherwise to me it's a waste of my time. Shrinking of the board was silly. My whole group kept it at 6 x 4 and we didn't have any issues with it feeling cramped.

[Scribe]

44 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

It's fine you dislike this edition, but saying "I hate it therefore it is broken beyond salvage" is equally asinine.

I honestly don't care if the entire forum agreed there's an issue. I care even less where they are from. Because saying, repeatedly, on a forum that "in their experience" the game is broken and crying for a return to the past has no more merit than when I say that in my experience when I step away from the overwhelming negativity that the online 40k space has become and I just play the game it is fun, it is not book keeping or rules bloat or too lethal or too big or too small or whatever the complaint of the week is.

I wish I could stop coming back to this accursed thread. The title being "How do we fix this mess" should be enough to tell me I want no part in the discussion. The only thing draining my enjoyment out of 40k - the hobby and the gaming side - is constantly seeing the online space claiming that 9th is broken beyond repair and there is nothing redeemable about it. But I keep coming back, keep trying to defend the game that has brought me so much joy.

40k won't break me. The community will.

I mean...with all respect brother. Dont read it then.

You cannot hold back the tide. I've been part of "debates" aka fights, on forums that have gone over decades. Few people will change their minds.

You are 100% correct that your anecdote, mine, whoever and however many there are, is irrelevant in absolutes.

If however many people are saying something  you disagree with, that distresses you, I suggest simply not reading the thread. I know what I think of 9th (and honestly everything after 5th or 6th if I am generous) and you having fun at a tournament will not change that in the least.

If you dont think the game is a mess? Fine, totally fine. You wont get me to agree that it isnt however. I have eyes, I can read, and I've played 40K for over 20 years and to me, this edition is simply a mess from a game design perspective.

Dont let that dampen your amusement though. What do you care if some people on a forum you likely will never play with, dont like the way the game was designed. Lets get down to some real 'debate' worthy topics, like the terrible lore of recent years. :D

[Special Officer Doofy]

45 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

It's fine you dislike this edition, but saying "I hate it therefore it is broken beyond salvage" is equally asinine.

I honestly don't care if the entire forum agreed there's an issue. I care even less where they are from. Because saying, repeatedly, on a forum that "in their experience" the game is broken and crying for a return to the past has no more merit than when I say that in my experience when I step away from the overwhelming negativity that the online 40k space has become and I just play the game it is fun, it is not book keeping or rules bloat or too lethal or too big or too small or whatever the complaint of the week is.

I wish I could stop coming back to this accursed thread. The title being "How do we fix this mess" should be enough to tell me I want no part in the discussion. The only thing draining my enjoyment out of 40k - the hobby and the gaming side - is constantly seeing the online space claiming that 9th is broken beyond repair and there is nothing redeemable about it. But I keep coming back, keep trying to defend the game that has brought me so much joy.

40k won't break me. The community will.

There is some excess negativity in here for sure, but it is on you to keep clicking and coming back to it. You don't find anything wrong with 9th? At all? 9th core rules are great, and personally my favorite yet. I have zero desire to go back to a previous edition. 9th edition codexes, on the other hand, got stupid with the imbalance and creep. And some were so stupid strong they had to go back and add things like armor of contempt to marines (earlier codexes) just to stay relevant. Hence the rules bloat and need for constant updates because of imbalanced codexes. It's hard enough to balance units and point costs with a simple faction bonus, warlord traits and relics, now sprinkle on some secondary faction bonuses, mono bonuses, secondary objectives, strats and mid edition rule changes like AoC. GW made it more difficult than it needed to be.

[Slave to Darkness]

53 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

But I keep coming back, keep trying to defend the game that has brought me so much joy.

40k won't break me. The community will.

If it keeps bringing you joy then ignore what others say, were just random words on a screen, in the grand scheme of things were not actually that important. 

 

Maybe its not the game but the rules writers that need 'fixing'. Nothing a dreadsocking cant sort out. 

[spessmarine]

the codex treadmill and need for constant content drip will repeatedly doom any edition regardless of which reboot iteration it is
gotta re-sell everyone their codex plus expansion books meaning constant bloat

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

It's fine you dislike this edition, but saying "I hate it therefore it is broken beyond salvage" is equally asinine.

I honestly don't care if the entire forum agreed there's an issue. I care even less where they are from. Because saying, repeatedly, on a forum that "in their experience" the game is broken and crying for a return to the past has no more merit than when I say that in my experience when I step away from the overwhelming negativity that the online 40k space has become and I just play the game it is fun, it is not book keeping or rules bloat or too lethal or too big or too small or whatever the complaint of the week is.

I wish I could stop coming back to this accursed thread. The title being "How do we fix this mess" should be enough to tell me I want no part in the discussion. The only thing draining my enjoyment out of 40k - the hobby and the gaming side - is constantly seeing the online space claiming that 9th is broken beyond repair and there is nothing redeemable about it. But I keep coming back, keep trying to defend the game that has brought me so much joy.

40k won't break me. The community will.

i mean no one has said that it was broken beyond saving...
however again, when 1 person says theres no issues, while many people are saying there are issues, it doesn't make sense to disregard the issues the rest of the community is pointing out, just because you like the game as it is.

[Scribe]

11 hours ago, spessmarine said:

the codex treadmill and need for constant content drip will repeatedly doom any edition regardless of which reboot iteration it is
gotta re-sell everyone their codex plus expansion books meaning constant bloat

This isnt even the bloat that is the issue.

Everyone expects a new codex. Thats the cost of doing business. Campaign books? Whatever, miss me with those most of the time.

Its the systems, tacked on to the core rules, that are the 'bloat', and in this case with 9th, the ever escalating unit/weapon profiles.

I'm 100% positive things could be pulled back into a range of 'normal' and very little would be lost.

[Slave to Darkness]

We could just agree on 'its not perfect', otherwise were just gonna go around in circles all day.

 

People find enjoyment in the strangest of places, hell Im loving 1st edition at the moment and most people say that was the worse edition. 

 

[Slave to Darkness]

6 minutes ago, Scribe said:

This isnt even the bloat that is the issue.

Everyone expects a new codex. Thats the cost of doing business. Campaign books? Whatever, miss me with those most of the time.

Its the systems, tacked on to the core rules, that are the 'bloat', and in this case with 9th, the ever escalating unit/weapon profiles.

I'm 100% positive things could be pulled back into a range of 'normal' and very little would be lost.

Yeah they dont need a new edition, just new codex books that are fair and balanced, and drop the 'season' releases.