HH 2.0 The Aett: Vith Legion Tactica

[Runefyre]

7 hours ago, SirPug said:

What do you guys think about Deathsworn? I can't see myself taking them instead of a command squad. They are expensive and for some reason only ws4.

Its a cool squad but really expensive it has cool weapon options and i like the idea.

Deathsworn may seem expensive, but with their fight on death ability they can actually trade up with units much more expensive than them (think elite terminator formations like Cenobium or Justaerin). As Michael said Rad grenades combined with str 6 from Great frost blades give you easy ap2 instant death at I4 against t4 units. If you stack Bloodied Claw with either Russ or the Howl of Morkai warlord trait you can even get 1 turn of instant death again t5 units.

[Lionsbane]

Quote

Deathsworn may seem expensive, but with their fight on death ability they can actually trade up with units much more expensive than them (think elite terminator formations like Cenobium or Justaerin). As Michael said Rad grenades combined with str 6 from Great frost blades give you easy ap2 instant death at I4 against t4 units. If you stack Bloodied Claw with either Russ or the Howl of Morkai warlord trait you can even get 1 turn of instant death again t5 units.

Fight on death is one attack with a WS4 model. Rad Grenades specifically do not count for Instant Death, per their rules.  Deathsworn are kinda poor for their points. If they were 25ppm (and base 25pts less) or WS 5, or not Heavy, or had a 5+ Invun, or had some weapon choices that didn't swing last on more than one in five models I could see maybe justifying their points. Honestly it would take at least two of those changes to put them on par with most of their competition much less some of the truly efficient units. But as is, they are over costed when compared to just about any other Legion special 2+ save unit. 

[Slips]

1 hour ago, Lionsbane said:

Fight on death is one attack with a WS4 model. Rad Grenades specifically do not count for Instant Death, per their rules.  Deathsworn are kinda poor for their points. If they were 25ppm (and base 25pts less) or WS 5, or not Heavy, or had a 5+ Invun, or had some weapon choices that didn't swing last on more than one in five models I could see maybe justifying their points. Honestly it would take at least two of those changes to put them on par with most of their competition much less some of the truly efficient units. But as is, they are over costed when compared to just about any other Legion special 2+ save unit. 

You might want to read page 143 of the loyalist book entry for the Rad Grenades again because it says it does affect instant death.

[Lionsbane]

Weird. I read that as does not, must have been tired when I read it. Thank you for pointing it out. I still think they are mediocre for their points. But less bad with Rad Grenades. 

 

[General Zodd]

I was under the same misapprehension, I think it’s because of Rad Grenades. The negative clause in that rule had attached itself in my mind to the other Rad rules!

[Nrthstar]

I've used Deathsworn in all of my games so far with Pale Hunter Outflank, they've proven to be the anvil to the hammer of Russ in a Spartan with Varagyr, and have been responsible for wiping out all of my opponents backline in four games now.

I'm looking at swapping out my caster of runes for a Speaker in Cat armor.

 

[TheTrans]

Ok gang,

 

For my 13th company I'm using some varangyr (they'll be modelled as pre-wulfen deathsworn in cataphractii armour). They'll be foot slogging, possibly with a shunted scout..or failing that, coming out of outflank. 

To give them some ability to be in all parts of the game I was thinking having 5 with double frost weapons and 4-5 with frost weapons + autocannons. They'll have either a speaker of the dead or caster of the runes in with them also. 

Thoughts on if the half-half on the squad would be doable, espcially if they are foot slogging it? 

[Lionsbane]

I have been fielding a mostly Autocannon/FW bunch where the Thegn and one other have Thunderhammer/FW. Because 9 WS 6 Thunderhammer attacks on the charge from two guys gives you a real advantage against other Elite Terminators and the occasional Dread. 

[The Scorpion]

What opinion do y'all have on the new Mk6 Wolf'eads?

[MichaelCarmine]

On 8/2/2022 at 7:43 AM, TheTrans said:

Ok gang,

 

For my 13th company I'm using some varangyr (they'll be modelled as pre-wulfen deathsworn in cataphractii armour). They'll be foot slogging, possibly with a shunted scout..or failing that, coming out of outflank. 

To give them some ability to be in all parts of the game I was thinking having 5 with double frost weapons and 4-5 with frost weapons + autocannons. They'll have either a speaker of the dead or caster of the runes in with them also. 

Thoughts on if the half-half on the squad would be doable, espcially if they are foot slogging it? 

In this Edition, footslogging Cataphractii Terminators are a waste of points.

Problem is, that they never see Melee, thanks to movement reactions as soon, as they come within 12" of their Target. 

I'd recommend, just putting them in a Raider, or Deepstriking them with a warmonger, althoug i don't like the latter, fluffwise. =]

Outflanking announces their entrypoint (give or take 6") from before the first turn and with a movement of 6", they are easily outmoved with reactions "been there, done that"...

Tartaros Terminators on the other hand...

[The Scorpion]

Footslogging Cataphractii has never been a good tactic, even back during 1.0

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, The Scorpion said:

Footslogging Cataphractii has never been a good tactic, even back during 1.0

Atleast they had a chance, but this edition?

With my RG for example, Catas move within 12" i move 4" backwards, they shoot at me? i (could) move 4-5" further away.

No way to get footslogging Catas into CC, atleast in the 20 Games i played so far.

You gotta drop 'em like it's hot, or put them in a Assault Vehicle for a possible Turn 1/2 Charge.

[Etruscan]

8 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

What opinion do y'all have on the new Mk6 Wolf'eads?

I'm sort of torn on the designs to be honest. Maybe one or two Wolf helmets would have been enough with the rest being more trad MKVI helmets with a Space Wolves flourish? It's sort of cranking the wolfiness up to 11 right now.

 

Regardless, I will only have a couple of token MKVI figures in my Space Wolves collection, personally I feel MKII,III and IV are a better fit stylistically. It's ralso ather annoying that they made MKVI bodies noticeably larger.

[Gorgoff]

15 hours ago, The Scorpion said:

What opinion do y'all have on the new Mk6 Wolf'eads?

I think they look stupid and not well made.

Therefore I'll use the ones from puppetswar.eu. 

Oh and i don't like the new shoulder pads either. 

[ashc]

Hi everyone,

I have some general rules questions that tie closely to Space Wolves and list building, but also a specific Space Wolves one - I'm on holiday and don't have my rulebook with me but these questions are bouncing around my head!

So, the Scout special rule confers the ability to outflank, going into outflanking assault, yes? If a unit with the scout rule uses this, do they also get a scout move when deployed via outflanking assault?

Pale Hunters gives up to 3 units outflank - do attached transports, units like apothecaries, and independent characters starting in the unit benefit from this? What about Hvarl's special rule and conferring scout to 3 units?

Finally, if you aren't running a special character what kind of Praetors are people enjoying taking?

 

Thanks!

 

Ash

 

 

 

 

 

[Gorgoff]

15 hours ago, ashc said:

Hi everyone,

I have some general rules questions that tie closely to Space Wolves and list building, but also a specific Space Wolves one - I'm on holiday and don't have my rulebook with me but these questions are bouncing around my head!

So, the Scout special rule confers the ability to outflank, going into outflanking assault, yes?

No.

[Cactus]

Er... yes? Page 246, last sentence of the last paragraph under Scout. A unit with Scout that is held in reserve can make a Flanking Assault.

I can't find anything saying that transports, dedicated or otherwise, gain Scout from an embarked unit that has it.

[Gorgoff]

4 hours ago, Cactus said:

Er... yes? Page 246, last sentence of the last paragraph under Scout. A unit with Scout that is held in reserve can make a Flanking Assault.

I can't find anything saying that transports, dedicated or otherwise, gain Scout from an embarked unit that has it.

It says "a unit of scouts" not "a unit with a scout." So no.

[ashc]

I'm back home with my rulebook now and I've managed to answer some but not all of my own questions -

The rules for Apothecarion Detachment are clear that Apothecaries attached to units benefit from all that units special rules and unit subtypes, therefore if they are in a unit given Outflank by Pale Hunters or Scout by Hvarl then they will benefit from it - ok.

What about dedicated transports? This is clear from the Scout rule that the dedicated transport gets the Scout rule as long as it's unit has it. As units that have Scout can Outflank, a unit with the Scout rule can perform a Flanking Assault in its dedicated transport. Outflank has no such text, so therefore a unit with a dedicated transport and Outflank cannot perform Flanking Assault. As that's the only benefit of Outflank, don't give Outflank units in Pale Hunters transports.

What about Independent characters?

Oh now this is complicated and really depends on when you class rules as kicking in before the game or during deployment. Scout confers the ability to character as the text has 'a unit containing at least one model with this special rule' - so a character deployed with a unit with scout can move with it, right? What about outflank? - well the text for Scout is written exactly like Stubborn which the independent character special rule specifically uses as an example conferred to the character, therefore the character can Outflank as long as it's in a unit with scout. However, if a unit only has Outflank (as Pale Hunters provides) the text specifically says 'a unit made up entirely of models with this special rule may perform...' which means you can't attach an independent character to the unit to go into flanking assault unless you also nominate the character to gain Outflank using the Pale Hunters rules.

Finally, can you even declare an independent character is in any of these units before the game anyway to then benefit from the rules? When do RoW choices or Hvarl's rules actually kick in? Can you just declare the independent character is in the unit before game, which rules they benefit from and just flanking assault? - after all this I'm not entirely sure myself!

I would love to know other people's interpretation of this, or let me know if I have something wrong as its key to at least two ways to play the Wolves!

Ash

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ashc]

12 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

It says "a unit of scouts" not "a unit with a scout." So no.

But do they mean a unit entirely with the Scout rule or the unit called 'scout squad'?

Even more confusion.

[The Scorpion]

1 hour ago, ashc said:

But do they mean a unit entirely with the Scout rule or the unit called 'scout squad'?

Even more confusion.

Common sense would have it that an entire special rule as common as Scout wouldn't be built to affect only one unit, but after seeing the Dark Angels rules, I don't give GW the benefit of the doubt.

Edited August 6, 2022 by The Scorpion

[Cactus]

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

It says "a unit of scouts" not "a unit with a scout." So no.

Sorry, I thought the question was about units where every model has the Scout special rule.

1 hour ago, ashc said:

But do they mean a unit entirely with the Scout rule or the unit called 'scout squad'?

Even more confusion.

The text in question:

Quote

Having Scout also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Scouts that are kept as Reserves (see page 309).

"Scouts" (with a capital S) is used in both the preceding paragraphs in a way that is clearly shorthand for "a unit containing at least one model with this special rule". Also it doesn't say "Legion Scout Squad" which is the name of the unit we informally call "scout squad". I don't think there's any support for this sentence only applying to Legion Scout Squads.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Cactus said:

Sorry, I thought the question was about units where every model has the Scout special rule.

The text in question:

"Scouts" (with a capital S) is used in both the preceding paragraphs in a way that is clearly shorthand for "a unit containing at least one model with this special rule". Also it doesn't say "Legion Scout Squad" which is the name of the unit we informally call "scout squad". I don't think there's any support for this sentence only applying to Legion Scout Squads.

I think you are right.

It indeed calls units with a scout in it as scouts because they make a scout move. 

Good. 

[ashc]

My conclusion is that you can select an HQ choice with a retinue squad to Outflank - this opens up characters with command squads and speakers of the dead and caster of Runes with Deathsworn as options to be able to Outflank as one choice which is pretty good - otherwise an HQ choice has to be selected separately to be able to outflank with a different unit.

 

[Alan]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:18 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

I'd recommend, just putting them in a Raider, or Deepstriking them with a warmonger, althoug i don't like the latter, fluffwise. =]

I believe warmonger is no longer an option for this edition, looks like Raider is our only option...