HH 2.0 The Aett: Vith Legion Tactica

[MichaelCarmine]

Gotta be honest, i myself really dont like the use of MkVII for Horus Heresy, especially in those numbers.

I wouldn't want to play against such an army... to me, it kinda destroys the illusion of HH and turns it into 40k. 

 

That being said, if you like it, then i hope you won't get that kind of problem in the future! =]

[Gorgoff]

Yes that pretty much looks like a 30k army and mk7 doesn't fit the narrative of Vlka Fenryka at all in my book so I wouldn't do that. 

But each to their own if course. 

 

[Lord Krungharr]

17 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Gotta be honest, i myself really dont like the use of MkVII for Horus Heresy, especially in those numbers.

I wouldn't want to play against such an army... to me, it kinda destroys the illusion of HH and turns it into 40k. 

 

That being said, if you like it, then i hope you won't get that kind of problem in the future! =]

If you get 3 boxes of Bloodclaws at half price, and free Raptor Jumppacks and Assault Squad bodies/legs, you gotta make an army, man!   

[Lord Krungharr]

Okay, here's the narrative....according to Lexicanum.org, the Mark VII was developed during the Heresy and as Mars fell to Horus, many of the suits found their way to Luna and Terra.  Many of my dudesmen are evidently from Terra (aside from the Grey Slayers and eventual HQs of course), and a big shipment of the new Mark VII armor found their way onto the new recruits from Terra to Fenris.  Thus, a bunch of Mark VII Vlka Fenryka ended up with jumppacks that they studded with wolf teeth to make themselves fit in better with the native Fenrisian Space Marines.  The Grey Slayers needed armor too of course, and since older suits were in short supply, this unit wears the Mark VII as well.  TAH DAH

[Jarl of Wulfen]

On 12/26/2022 at 10:21 AM, Gorgoff said:

 

So how did it go? 

Sorry it took so long to reply but it didn't go well, lol.  I was tabled in 4.  Ended up playing against another Death guard army again today and it too, did not go well.  I've been foot slogging my various troop squads and they've just been getting chewed up by ranged attacks before they can get into melee.  Going to start running them with apothecaries going forward, just haven't had the models yet.  I think i'll also start tossing them in rhinos to start the game just for the turn or 2 of protection.  

 

I'm going to the Nova Open in DC later this year and will get 9 games of various sizes in during the course of the convention.  3 will be at 2500 points, 2 at 3000 points, 2 at 1000 points for ZM.  The last 2 are a tank battle and a B.L.A.M

[MichaelCarmine]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:14 PM, Lord Krungharr said:

Okay, here's the narrative....according to Lexicanum.org, the Mark VII was developed during the Heresy and as Mars fell to Horus, many of the suits found their way to Luna and Terra.  Many of my dudesmen are evidently from Terra (aside from the Grey Slayers and eventual HQs of course), and a big shipment of the new Mark VII armor found their way onto the new recruits from Terra to Fenris.  Thus, a bunch of Mark VII Vlka Fenryka ended up with jumppacks that they studded with wolf teeth to make themselves fit in better with the native Fenrisian Space Marines.  The Grey Slayers needed armor too of course, and since older suits were in short supply, this unit wears the Mark VII as well.  TAH DAH

As being statet, everyone is entitled to build and play, what they want.

Just sayin, that this way might limit your choice of opponents, since the heresy community is way into "historical" accuracy.

That is one thing i especially like about this community!

 

And it is allready highly strained, with the overflow of MkVI from the AoD boxes.

You can clearly see, that GW is finding ways to justify the now widespread use of MkVI in the lore by stating, for examample, that the Wolves and Dark Angels received massive shippments of MkVI from the Raven Guard. 

 

You can even see massive formations of "new" MkVI in legions, that clearly wouldn't have chosen this Mk thanks to the lack of protection compared to other versions like MkIII. Namely the Iron Warriors, for example...

 

But of course, that was to be expected, when the new Box was anounced. And at least, one could say, that they are based around the time of the Siege of Terra. 

 

MkVII on the other hand... and in those numbers? I'd find it hard to believe, that a Great Company outfits nearly all of its Legionares with MkVII. Maybe a few per squad, to replace destroyed armor.

 

Edit: Same goes for the wide use of MkVII JumpPacks that i've seen... I get, that some people don't want to use 3D Printed Parts, or shop with our friends from China.

But just using them, because they are "widely available" and not looking for more accurate parts, like the also available MkIV Pack, makes my hobby-heart sad...

 

If i would've been that fortunate, to have received 30 Slayers/JumpPacks for free, i'd kitbash them with about 20 MKIII to keep the optical illusion of "historic accuracy".

But thats just my prefference =]

 

As said, you do you! =]

Edited March 16, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[arctic]

I'd happily play against someone who turned up with infantry in mkvii armour.

 

I wouldn't play against a gatekeeper.

 

The 'heresy community' mentioned in the above posts bears no relation to my gaming community, which is one in which having a laugh and playing a fun game is more important than having the correct shoulder markings.

 

We're not talking the 1807 French invasion of Portugal here guys, it's a fictional setting. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by arctic

[MichaelCarmine]

2 hours ago, arctic said:

I'd happily play against someone who turned up with infantry in mkvii armour.

 

I wouldn't play against a gatekeeper.

 

The 'heresy community' mentioned in the above posts bears no relation to my gaming community, which is one in which having a laugh and playing a fun game is more important than having the correct shoulder markings.

 

We're not talking the 1807 French invasion of Portugal here guys, it's a fictional setting. 

There we have it, "Gatekeeper"...

Do you even know the definition of the word?

For someone to choose, against whom they play, is their god damn right and has nothing to do with the definition "Gatekeeping" - just sayin'!

 

And yes, it is a fictional setting - with many different armor-variants, all issued at different stages during the Crusade/Horus Heresy/Great Scouring.

When i, for example, want to play a narrative prospero campaign and my opponent/ally would field an almost all MkVII Vlka Fenryka army, that would have a big impact on my narrative illusion of the setting. The reason why i play Horus Heresy. 

I'm not saying, that such an army wouldn't look dope, but everything has its place.

And we all know, there are Events/Tournaments, where such things matter and therefore might be unavailable, thanks to the players choice of not sticking to the "accurate" armor Mks/models.

So you (the example "you") are limiting yourself in the amount of games you could be playing.

 

I'm quoting - "You can only gatekeep yourself!" - which is damn accurate! =]

 

Edit: but i think, that's a discussion for another thread ^^

Edited March 18, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[Lord Krungharr]

Finally ready to assemble my HQs.  Pale Hunters looks like a good choice for my infantry focused Rout.  For my Praetor, I'm thinking jumppack and great frost blade, and run him with my jumpy Command Squad.  They can hunt 2+ saves and theoretically take down a dreadnought in one go with the charnabal tabars and great frost blade if needed.   (guess that also begs the separate question, can a Command Squad take jump packs if they do NOT form the retinue for an IC without a jump pack? )

 

Then for my Caster of Runes and Speaker of the Dead...should I also go jump packs?  Or should I run them in Tartaros armor?  I have the bits to make both versions, but wasn't sure which way might be more advantageous.  Since I'll have Apothecaries and bulk masses of dudesmen in the Assault, Despoiler, and Grey Slayer packs, not sure I need the Hatred as much.  I kinda want great frost blades on both though, for that sweet Init 5 Str 6/AP2.  

 

[MichaelCarmine]

50 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Finally ready to assemble my HQs.  Pale Hunters looks like a good choice for my infantry focused Rout.  For my Praetor, I'm thinking jumppack and great frost blade, and run him with my jumpy Command Squad.  They can hunt 2+ saves and theoretically take down a dreadnought in one go with the charnabal tabars and great frost blade if needed.   (guess that also begs the separate question, can a Command Squad take jump packs if they do NOT form the retinue for an IC without a jump pack? )

 

Then for my Caster of Runes and Speaker of the Dead...should I also go jump packs?  Or should I run them in Tartaros armor?  I have the bits to make both versions, but wasn't sure which way might be more advantageous.  Since I'll have Apothecaries and bulk masses of dudesmen in the Assault, Despoiler, and Grey Slayer packs, not sure I need the Hatred as much.  I kinda want great frost blades on both though, for that sweet Init 5 Str 6/AP2.  

 

 No, a Command Squad has to stick to the same mobility-type, that the Praetor chooses.

The option is not a "may", it's a "must". =]

Also wouldn't make much sence to have two widely different movement charackteristics in the same squad.

 

I think it solely depends on what unit you plan them to join.

Doesn't make much sence to join a Tartaros Speaker to a JumpPack squad - likewise a JumpPack Speaker doesn't get much out of joining a foot-slogging unit. 

And if you plan to send your Command Squad against enemy elites and/or dreadnoughts, then hatred/FnP goes a long way in assuring, that you  get enough attacks thru and also endure the incoming damage, to get the upper hand. 

Aaand i'd sprinkle in some powerfists if i were you, since great frostblades still need 5s/6s to wound a dreadnought, while charnabal weapons can only wound up to T7 =] 

 

I myself am building a Bike command-Squad. It's not as fast as a JumpPack Squad, but receives a +1 modifier to its WS on the charge, which does effect their damage output and defence greatly!

[Lord Krungharr]

Wow, I didn't realize the difference about the WS.  WS4 only hits WS5 on 5+ now...didn't that used to be still on a 4+?  Or maybe I'm just remembering old 40k rules.  Hmmm.  At least the Str+2 on the charnabal tabars can wound Contemptors on 5+, and Leviathans on a 6+, and the Breaching 6+ would make those AP2 anyways, but not sure how many attacks could get through at WS4.  I am eager to find out :D

 

Biker Command Squad would look super cool!   If they hadn't changed bikers to T4, I'd probably be making those instead.  

 

 

[MichaelCarmine]

48 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Wow, I didn't realize the difference about the WS.  WS4 only hits WS5 on 5+ now...didn't that used to be still on a 4+?  Or maybe I'm just remembering old 40k rules.  Hmmm.  At least the Str+2 on the charnabal tabars can wound Contemptors on 5+, and Leviathans on a 6+, and the Breaching 6+ would make those AP2 anyways, but not sure how many attacks could get through at WS4.  I am eager to find out :D

 

Biker Command Squad would look super cool!   If they hadn't changed bikers to T4, I'd probably be making those instead.  

 

 

Yes, in 1.0, you'd only hit on 5s, if your opponent's WS was twice as high as yours. That's now changed to 5s when you face a higher WS, or 6s when trying to hit double your WS.

Command Squads have WS5, not 4. So you'll hit dreads and most elites on 4+. 

But - let's do the math real quick, Full Command Squad, thats 9 dudes, 36 attacks on the charge. Against WS5, you'll hit 18. Breaching on 5s, thats 6. Breaching on 6s, thats 3. Not very desireble numbers.

Join in a Speaker, thats 27 hits, 9 breaches on 5s, or 4,5 breaches on 6s.

Better, but nothing to brag about.

Ofcourse, you'll add the wounds from the Praetor - 5 attacks on the charge, 4 hits, 1 sure wound against t7, "maybe" 1 against t8.

 

Now let's just say, 3 have a power fist - thats 9 attacks, about 6 hits, 4,5 wounds against t7, 3 against t8. 

Edit: if youd consider a Paragon blade, instead of a Great Frostblade, you'd cause d3 wounds against dreads on 6s. 

 

So i would really consider adding a few Fists, just in case =]

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[MichaelCarmine]

Oh yeah and yes, bikes lost 1 Toughness.

But the "upgrade" to JumpPacks and Spathas both cost 10 pts.

with JumpPacks you'll move 12" and can run 4", so 16" total, then charge with a +2" bonus, so atleast 20". You'll ofcourse also be able to deep strike.

With Spathas, you'll get base movement of 14", thats also +3 to charge distance, instead of +2. So 19" in the worst case. As i mentioned, slower... by 1 inch.

But, Spathas give you skirmish, so 3" unit coherrency and +1 to cover saves. 

They also change the unit into cavalry, which cannot be pinned (big bonus, when facing srmies with telepathy Librarians) Plus, they receive the mentioned +1 WS with wolves when they charge, so hitting moes elites and dreads on 3s in the first round of combat. ^^

[Lord Krungharr]

Excellent points, but I don't have a too Dreadnought heavy meta around here (at least not since I sold my Fury of the Ancients army!).  If I find enough bikes for a reasonable price, or if GW gets off their rears and makes a new plastic kit for them?!?!? then I'll slap on the leftover torsos I have to make the biker Command Squad.  You've sold me on them.

[MichaelCarmine]

21 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Excellent points, but I don't have a too Dreadnought heavy meta around here (at least not since I sold my Fury of the Ancients army!).  If I find enough bikes for a reasonable price, or if GW gets off their rears and makes a new plastic kit for them?!?!? then I'll slap on the leftover torsos I have to make the biker Command Squad.  You've sold me on them.

I actually wasn't aiming for that xD just wanted to show, that bikes do have their benefits ^^

JumpPacks alsp offer significant benefits - namely deep strike.

I've used them to incredible success with my raven guard.

 

I just think, with general fluff in mind, since fenrisians don't really like the skies that much, bikes work better.

Edit: Still, there are terran born, that can fill that part. I know, Wolves have replaced nearly all terrans with fenrisians, but i think, there could be a few remaining for atleast a few squads xD

Edited April 8, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[Lord Krungharr]

Based on the more modern armor that I've used for economical reasons, and the approximately 40 jump dudes I have, my guys are mostly Terran born I suppose.  yeah, yeah, that's the ticket!

 

Looks like Tartaros guys can take thunder hammers.  I'll magnetize a couple of those for Brutal tryouts.  Maybe 1 of those and 1 chainfist for a run-in with a Land Raider here and there.

[SlickSamos]

 

On 3/14/2023 at 6:14 PM, Lord Krungharr said:

Okay, here's the narrative....according to Lexicanum.org, the Mark VII was developed during the Heresy and as Mars fell to Horus, many of the suits found their way to Luna and Terra.  Many of my dudesmen are evidently from Terra (aside from the Grey Slayers and eventual HQs of course), and a big shipment of the new Mark VII armor found their way onto the new recruits from Terra to Fenris.  Thus, a bunch of Mark VII Vlka Fenryka ended up with jumppacks that they studded with wolf teeth to make themselves fit in better with the native Fenrisian Space Marines.  The Grey Slayers needed armor too of course, and since older suits were in short supply, this unit wears the Mark VII as well.  TAH DAH

 

I agree!  Especially as Russ lead a good portion of the Vlka Fenryka from Terra to try to kill Horus (Battle of Trisolian) and given the battering they took on Prospero and vs AL, it's completely reasonable that they would have re-armed with weapon stock in the Sol system.  Given that this happened towards the end of the Heresy (012.M31 according to Lexicanum) I don't see why they wouldn't have access to Mk. VI or VII Power Armour (or Indomitus TDA if you felt so inclined). 

 

However the Wolves are probably the least likely to go for consistency and least likely to be happy to completely re-arm, so these would probably be newer raised troops?  However for the price you got them for, that outweighs anything else

 

[Lord Krungharr]

I decided to put a custom power maul on my Caster of Runes to be a Force Maul...which if the psychic check works would be Str 12!  That's a good thwacking for anything.  But I did Great Frost Blades on the Praetor and Speaker of the Dead. 

 

Running my Praetor with the Command Squad and the Speaker w my Tartaros unit, as they can't have an Apothecary, and would enjoy the Hatred of everything; 3 w paired lightning claws, a chainfist, and a thunderhammer, the latter 2 having combi-grenade launchers too.  I think the next 5 will probably be the same.

 

I'm on the fence about what color.  I've seen both the gray and the more blueish-Fang versions.  Kinda leaning towards the more gray scheme.  Though perhaps a lighter gray would be good for the Pale Hunters?  Gotta try some Space Wolves Grey contrast paint over the Mechanicum Gray primer to see if that does anything interesting.

[MichaelCarmine]

11 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I decided to put a custom power maul on my Caster of Runes to be a Force Maul...which if the psychic check works would be Str 12!  That's a good thwacking for anything.  But I did Great Frost Blades on the Praetor and Speaker of the Dead. 

 

Running my Praetor with the Command Squad and the Speaker w my Tartaros unit, as they can't have an Apothecary, and would enjoy the Hatred of everything; 3 w paired lightning claws, a chainfist, and a thunderhammer, the latter 2 having combi-grenade launchers too.  I think the next 5 will probably be the same.

 

I'm on the fence about what color.  I've seen both the gray and the more blueish-Fang versions.  Kinda leaning towards the more gray scheme.  Though perhaps a lighter gray would be good for the Pale Hunters?  Gotta try some Space Wolves Grey contrast paint over the Mechanicum Gray primer to see if that does anything interesting.

No, str. 10 - Rulebook pg147 "multiple modifiers. First you multiply (4×2=8), then you add (8+2=10).

[Lord Krungharr]

Dang it.  Str8 is still pretty decent though

[MichaelCarmine]

Don't know, if i mentioned, but i'm still looking for good Alternative for hesvy chainswords, that fit the look of MkIII Chainswords, anyone know of a good alternative? =]

 

Also - with the (atleast for me) lately discovered/mentioned "loophole", that one can join a Moritat to a Unit without them having the BitterDuty special rule, i'm still on the fence on wheter i should add one with a GreatFrostblade to a unit of 10-20 HeavyChainsword despoilers...

I mean, a cheap, scoring HotL squad, that delivers 3 Instand Death attacks/dude on the charge at initiative to anyone who hasn't Battlehardened or T5 and up seems kinda dirty... but it's soooooo tempting! xD

 

I mean, still not a nobrainer against Elite Terminators and Warders, but everything else...?

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Don't know, if i mentioned, but i'm still looking for good Alternative for hesvy chainswords, that fit the look of MkIII Chainswords, anyone know of a good alternative? =]

 

Also - with the (atleast for me) lately discovered/mentioned "loophole", that one can join a Moritat to a Unit without them having the BitterDuty special rule, i'm still on the fence on wheter i should add one with a GreatFrostblade to a unit of 10-20 HeavyChainsword despoilers...

I mean, a cheap, scoring HotL squad, that delivers 3 Instand Death attacks/dude on the charge at initiative to anyone who hasn't Battlehardened or T5 and up seems kinda dirty... but it's soooooo tempting! xD

 

I mean, still not a nobrainer against Elite Terminators and Warders, but everything else...?

I say...

WROOOOM WROOOOM MF!

[Lord Krungharr]

Played a 1K Zone Mortalis type of game this week.  The Wolves thoroughly routed the Alpha Legion in an alien jungle.  I had a Tartaros Speaker of the Dead, 2x5 Tartaros (1 mostly claws, the other fists and a hammer), then 10 Grey Slayers and 10 Despoilers w 7 heavy chainswords.  He had Alpha Legion special guy Dynat, and Exodus, and Tartaros Centurion, 3 dude command squad (I didn't fuss that he lacked a Master of the Legion), 10 bolter tacticals, 10 Breachers w a lascutter/grav gun, Castra dread w dual heavy flamers and fists.

 

We used the LVO (LasVegas Open) ZM rules cuz that's the only pdf I readily found besides the old redbook HH ZM rules pdf, but the mission was Sabotage from the old rules.  I won the roll off and decided to be defender.  He was not aggressive enough in pushing forward to get in my face and destroy the objectives, though the terrain was so dense it was tough to move stuff.  

 

The Exodus sniper failed to do anything, as in the LVO rules the reactions are limited, and when a unit targets one of yours you can move with the Displace reaction, kinda like Fade to Black from the Raven Guard.  So you can get out of the way and they lose their shots.   He had the sniper and 1 Chosen from the command squad left at the end.   Sweeping Advance RULES.  So do running and charging terminators.   I think I fired like two combi bolters the whole game, using snap shots.   It's great to just skip the shooting phase.  And my old VIth Legion dice rolled super hot on some clutch invul saves.

 

In a normal game it would have been tougher with Overwatch and less terrain, but I think the Ever-Vigilant warlord trait and the Space Wolves Advanced Reaction both work well with a melee focused force too.  Maybe I'll try the Pale Hunters or Pride of the Legion next time.  In 2K points I'll be able to fit the Command Squad with my Praetor, another Speaker to jump with them, almost double the Slayers and Despoilers, and a couple extra Terminator bodies in those units.

 

My main problem is how to paint them.  I'm not liking the Contrast paint so much on inorganic models.  Seems to look better for living surfaces to me.

[Carnivore]

How’s everyone kitting out their Praetors? ARE you running a Praetor? What HQs are everyone liking these days for the VI? I’m currently running a Cataphractii Jarl with a thunder hammer and the Hunger of the Void WT, because a huge S5 beatstick leader feels right for the mighty saga-obsessed Wolves, and I run him with a Speaker and a Caster and a 7-strong Varagyr Squad with hammers and a chainfist in a Spartan. They definitely wreck most everything they get into combat with, but it’s a massive points sink and a unit you have to build your whole list around and I guess I’m curious what everyone else is doing. Sorry for rambling. Thanks in advance to anyone who shares.

[MichaelCarmine]

Usually i also play a Cataphractii Great Frostblade Jarl with a squad of hammer-Varagyr and the Howl of Morkai WL-trait.

 

Right now i'm building a Tartaros Commandsquad for Redmane and a Spatha Jarl with full 9man Spatha Commandsquad and spatha-priest - 14" move, plus 3" (5" with Bloody Claw/Pale Hunter bonuses) on the charge, not pinnable, +1 WS on Charge *maniacalgiggle*